Finally grasped the essence of table tennis biomechanical principle Chinese style! (Chain reaction of power from the ground) (UPDATED AGAIN)

[schrodingerskoalabear]

OP, I was kinda like you when I started self-learning last year (no $$ for coaching.. yet). Doing lots of shadow training and as others have mentioned, I probably over exaggerated my actions, especially FH vs underspin. I still think it is a very useful exercise as long as you understand shadow training's role as muscle-training.

This might be useful for you but I also found that more than just shadow-training the shot, adding footwork really helped me. So essentially a shadow FH- FH mid in this case. As a FH dominant player, I kind of figured that I would need to be in position to be able to hit more effective forehands. Maybe something to think about. You are doing fantastic and good luck on the journey!

are you saying you need to be able to hit 50 strokes in a row at full power? I can see it from a consistency and a stamina point of view..... but i'm just a hobby player. i feel like if you can hit 80% power for a minute straight in a drill and make 70-80% of your shots, thats pretty darn consistent and you should be stable enough at that point to play a 5-9 ball rally in a match.

for reference, i'm around 1700 USATT and do this pretty regularly on my robot and it has translated into me having longer stable rallies in my match play.

On the flip side, i've been able to backhand loop against backspin 20+ times in a row when the ball is fed to me in a regular spot with regular spin (from the robot) but in match play, im only making about 25% of my backhand loops against backspin lol. its definitely a work in progress.

ANYWAYS- OP- keep at it. but yes, please show us a video of you getting fed multi ball or your opponent blocking back to you so we can see how your stroke looks when you do it 5, 10, 15 or 20 times in a row. thats when you can see your technique break down and where it needs improvement.

I have a similar reaction. Whenever I train, one of my warm up drills include attempting 20 FH loops (30% low power, 40% med power and 30% full power) in a row. I started with 10 a while back so 20-25 is an achievement for me. 50 will take a couple of years if not more!

What level would one need to be to be able to hit 50 90-100% shots?

 

[ZFT]

OP, I was kinda like you when I started self-learning last year (no $$ for coaching.. yet). Doing lots of shadow training and as others have mentioned, I probably over exaggerated my actions, especially FH vs underspin. I still think it is a very useful exercise as long as you understand shadow training's role as muscle-training.

This might be useful for you but I also found that more than just shadow-training the shot, adding footwork really helped me. So essentially a shadow FH- FH mid in this case. As a FH dominant player, I kind of figured that I would need to be in position to be able to hit more effective forehands. Maybe something to think about. You are doing fantastic and good luck on the journey!



I have a similar reaction. Whenever I train, one of my warm up drills include attempting 20 FH loops (30% low power, 40% med power and 30% full power) in a row. I started with 10 a while back so 20-25 is an achievement for me. 50 will take a couple of years if not more!

What level would one need to be to be able to hit 50 90-100% shots?

A barometer of this is if you can physically be able to hit 50 balls @ 90-100% during multi ball whether it goes in or out.

This seems too niche and not practical as it relates to table tennis but I guess you can do specialised training to make it happen, like in diving, fencing, archery and speed skating where they are training specific muscle groups and specific repeatable actions.

But table tennis is complex, there are other skills and techniques you need to worry about.

But who knows, it can work out, look at Togami he gives off the vibe of being the GOAT at multiball.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

are you saying you need to be able to hit 50 strokes in a row at full power? I can see it from a consistency and a stamina point of view..... but i'm just a hobby player. i feel like if you can hit 80% power for a minute straight in a drill and make 70-80% of your shots, thats pretty darn consistent and you should be stable enough at that point to play a 5-9 ball rally in a match.

for reference, i'm around 1700 USATT and do this pretty regularly on my robot and it has translated into me having longer stable rallies in my match play.

On the flip side, i've been able to backhand loop against backspin 20+ times in a row when the ball is fed to me in a regular spot with regular spin (from the robot) but in match play, im only making about 25% of my backhand loops against backspin lol. its definitely a work in progress.

ANYWAYS- OP- keep at it. but yes, please show us a video of you getting fed multi ball or your opponent blocking back to you so we can see how your stroke looks when you do it 5, 10, 15 or 20 times in a row. thats when you can see your technique break down and where it needs improvement.

Hitting 50-100 consecutively in practice is basically a practice for early beginners as they're just grasping the concept of making the ball hit the table. But after the beginner levels, 50-100 shots is not practical if you're doing anything besides for single strokes cross court especially when you want to practice things other than just consistency. Even the best players in the world aren't consistently hitting 50+ shots in practice, 10-20 on average is still probably more like it.

 

[job59]

Hitting 50-100 consecutively in practice is basically a practice for early beginners as they're just grasping the concept of making the ball hit the table. But after the beginner levels, 50-100 shots is not practical if you're doing anything besides for single strokes cross court especially when you want to practice things other than just consistency. Even the best players in the world aren't consistently hitting 50+ shots in practice, 10-20 on average is still probably more like it.

Watch carefully
Ma Long

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Watch carefully
Ma Long

What about it?

 

[job59]

What about it?

I should have made a general reply. Wasn’t directly to your post.
One can clearly see the way to hit the ball @ Ma Long

 

[songdavid98]

Ah, the sacred art of table tennis, where physics meets philosophy and a paddle becomes an extension of the soul. You've finally unlocked the secrets of the Chinese biomechanical principle—congratulations! Now, prepare to ascend to a higher plane of existence. Your opponent? A mere mortal, staring not at the ball, but at you - harnessing the power of the Earth's core itself! -written by AI

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Satire aside, there are a lot of ideas going around that should be addressed.

1. Shadow training:
I think shadow training is fine as long as you are mentally pairing the stroke with real example balls in your memory.
Even better if you adjust the strokes based on changes in the ball (ball is higher / lower / spinnier ... ).
Even better if you can imagine realistic followup shots and pair those successfully too.
I am not sure if OP is at this level though. From what I can tell, only higher level players have a pretty concrete memory of example balls and pair them correctly with a valid stroke and adjust strokes accordingly.

2. 50 loops in a row:
This is less about technique and has more to do with physical fitness and successfully pairing strokes to balls.

3. Unrealistic?
OP's shadow stroke is ok. His footage of his one loop is ok too.

4. More footage?
We'd rather he post a few minutes of uncut footage. Showing one success and not showing the failures means you only want to hear praises.

 

[BlopChock]

I was professionally trained and have learned from many great coaches and high level players from different continents, and am far higher level than you and most, if not everyone, that actively posts on this forum. I also coach developing players.

Awesome! Where do you coach out of, @ThePongCommenter ?

 

[BlopChock]

I’m curious about the origin of the term 'Power from ground'

I'll hazard a guess this came long before (as in millennia) table tennis was invented, and the concept of kinetic chain/ power from the ground up was adapted from boxing/martial arts.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I'll hazard a guess this came long before (as in millennia) table tennis was invented, and the concept of kinetic chain/ power from the ground up was adapted from boxing/martial arts.

all sports uses the kinetic chain, its not unique to boxing/martial arts.

 

[BlopChock]

all sports uses the kinetic chain, its not unique to boxing/martial arts.

Of course they do. And I certainly didn't state nor imply that it's unique to those.

As before, please note what I'm replying to: a pondering of the origin of the concept of "power from the ground up."

Even casual fans of boxing are aware of the importance of balance and footwork plus hip and torso rotation to optimize power delivery through the hand. A fairly close corollary to this sport we love, I'd say.

Furthermore:

"The origins of boxing in any of its forms as a sport remain uncertain,[4] but some sources suggest that it has prehistoric roots in what is now Ethiopia, emerging as early as the sixth millennium BC. It is believed that when the Egyptians invaded Nubia, they adopted boxing from the local populace, subsequently popularizing it in Egypt. From there, the sport of boxing spread to various regions, including Greece, eastward to Mesopotamia, and northward to Rome.

The earliest visual evidence of any type of boxing is from Egypt and Sumer, both from the third millennia,[6] and can be seen in Sumerian carvings from the third and second millennia BC.[7][8][9][10] The earliest evidence of boxing rules dates back to Ancient Greece, where boxing was established as an Olympic game in 688 BC."

Boxing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[zeio]

The concept of kinetic chain (kinematic chain to be precise) was first proposed by the German mechanical engineer Franz Reuleaux in 1875. It was initially used for describing the constraints on the machines!

https://www.physio-pedia.com/Kinetic_Chain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Reuleaux#Kinematics

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The concept of kinetic chain (kinematic chain to be precise) was first proposed by the German mechanical engineer Franz Reuleaux in 1875. It was initially used for describing the constraints on the machines!

https://www.physio-pedia.com/Kinetic_Chain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Reuleaux#Kinematics

 

[StreamOfWater]

Hello once again, everyone!

I am back with another technique update. My topspins are getting significantly spinnier, consistent and I am able to generate my own power with proper technique on an all-wood blade. I'll come back soon with another training video with a more experienced partner, to really show the great improvement and, of course, my struggles. Hope you enjoy 🙏

Video consists of 4 sections:

1) Warm up and some forehand topspins
2) Warming up RPB side then RPB topspins
3) Loop kill pivot on RPB side, backspin ball
4) Couple of highlight points from our 1v1 games

technique-update.mp4

drive.google.com

 

[BlotOnPaper]

Hello once again, everyone!

I am back with another technique update. My topspins are getting significantly spinnier, consistent and I am able to generate my own power with proper technique on an all-wood blade. I'll come back soon with another training video with a more experienced partner, to really show the great improvement and, of course, my struggles. Hope you enjoy 🙏

Video consists of 4 sections:

1) Warm up and some forehand topspins
2) Warming up RPB side then RPB topspins
3) Loop kill pivot on RPB side, backspin ball
4) Couple of highlight points from our 1v1 games

technique-update.mp4

drive.google.com

Did you solve the problem with weight of your setup? I remember you made a post about it.

 

[StreamOfWater]

Did you solve the problem with weight of your setup? I remember you made a post about it.

Thank you for your comment. You are right, I did make a post about it 😁

As strange as it might sound, I kind of started utilising my body more, strengthened my wrist, tried concentrating power a little more and it has been a while since I felt any discomfort. So, the problem is gone. I am able to keep the benefits of head heaviness and slightly heavier weight!

 

[BlotOnPaper]

Thank you for your comment. You are right, I did make a post about it 😁

As strange as it might sound, I kind of started utilising my body more, strengthened my wrist, tried concentrating power a little more and it has been a while since I felt any discomfort. So, the problem is gone. I am able to keep the benefits of head heaviness and slightly heavier weight!

Great, glad to hear that. It was the same thing for me, strenghtening the wrists and utilizing the body more makes it much easier to manage weight of the setup.

 

[job59]

3) Loop kill pivot on RPB side, backspin ball

Your feet are almost parallel. That's incorrect. After pivoting, your left foot has to be in front, clearly! Based on the 90° of the edge of the table, you should put your body to 45°.

 

[StreamOfWater]

Your feet are almost parallel. That's incorrect. After pivoting, your left foot has to be in front, clearly! Based on the 90° of the edge of the table, you should put your body to 45°.

Thanks for the feedback — you’re partially correct, but I think it depends on the shot:

When pivoting for a diagonal kill loop, I naturally adjust into a deeper stance with my left foot forward and body angled ~45°, just like you mentioned. But when I pivot to kill down the line, if I stay in that same diagonal stance, it actually feels restrictive — the body needs to face more in line with the shot to generate power and accuracy. Same logic applies to pretty much with every single technique, especially when it requires power: the body has to align with the target direction 😁

If you look closely, you’ll notice I do change my stance depending on whether I go cross or down the line. Thing I have noticed myself, however, (and what I’m working on) is moving more forward into the ball for extra power and less pronounced/more direct arc

Unless I am missing something, you have all all rights to prove me wrong 👍

 

[StreamOfWater]

Your feet are almost parallel. That's incorrect. After pivoting, your left foot has to be in front, clearly! Based on the 90° of the edge of the table, you should put your body to 45°.

For example, here I was aiming diagonally:

Just as you have mentioned, left foot is in front, deeper rotation, shoulder facing down the diagonal 🙂

Down the line: