The nations that do well and those that underperform (mens only)

[PoppaChubby]

With the new mens world rankings issued today, I've been doing some stats. First, I've taken in consideration each major nation's density, how many athletes they have so, in the top 100 and in the top 200, as of today:
1- China: 13 in the top 100 - 18 in the top 200

2- Japan: 11 in the top 100 - 15 in the top 200

3- South Korea: 8 in the top 100 - 14 in the top 200

4- France: 8 in the top 100 - 12 in the top 200

5- Germany: 8 in the top 100 - 11 in the top 200

6- Taïwan: 7 in the top 100 - 9 in the top 200

7- Sweden: 4 in the top 100 - 5 in the top 200

8- Brazil: 3 in the top 100 - 5 in the top 200

If we take in consideration those 4 events:
WTTTC 2024
Olympics 2024
World Cup 2025
WTTC 2025
I mean here: 2 team events + 3 single events and all the 3 Grand Slam events (the Olympics mixing team and single), who do you think does well or better than they should, just according to their density, or on the contrary underperform ?

To me right here it's obvious that Sweden is way overperforming considering their low density of athletes, and Japan is underperforming.

What's your take ? your point of view ?

 

[PoppaChubby]

I've just added Brazil for obvious/Hugo reasons

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

My take personal take is, (no disrespect) this is a pointless comparison.

How world ranking works - which is based on participation, your answers/stats will be skewed based on many factors which is more around 1) money available and not playing levels and also 2) continental boost

I personally know many players that will only do heavy WTT schedule based on wttc seeding prep and Olympics
other times, they are happy to drop in world ranking from lack of participation during certain periods that allows them to.

the 3rd part is some countries has domestic limit on how much people they will send, so that is also skewered against those that have unlimited.

so with so many variables, especially limitations to WTT participation or over participation, this whole comparison is never going to be accurate..

There is basically few nationals fighting it out in Mens and depending if you are looking at teams or individuals, if you looking at individuals, then there are many lone wolfs hitting the top, but aren't really strong as a country - ie Brazil.

If you follow domestic circuits in European and Asian leagues, you will also find many non WTT ranked players that are super strong and would easily have world rankings should they see a need for it - frankly, not everyone sees a need for world rankings, some are happy with domestic results.

So if you just talking numbers, there are many things skewing the results during different periods of time, and if you talking skills, then that is even more skewed..

 

[PoppaChubby]

My take about this is basically the financial investments nations put in sports in general, and table tennis here: we all know more money invested + more athletes development = better results.

Having a strong TT culture (meaning here their history in competitions) should also help

Now there are countries that do not invest that much in TT, Brazil is an example. And brazil has never been know for its TT culture, it's pretty much recent because of Hugo. There again, there are too much sports that matter most for their government.

So it's not about picking up one guy here that does xyz, another one there that does abc. Of course Autralia having 3 athletes in the top 50 is a nonsense as they barely win any 1st round in WTT Contenders only. It's the best Oceania nation, but Oceania is probably the worst continent in TT. And I won't talk about those stinky KSA/Saudi Arabia wild cards for Ljubljana that artificially boost their world ranking.

Does Autralia invest money in TT athletes development ? there's cricket, rugby league and rugby union, the famous australian football, tennis, basketball, football, and so on way before. I think Taïwan invests way more money than Australia in TT, because it's their sport culture like China, and gives up on other sports because the nation is too small, both in size and population.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I'm interested to see how much you know about the financial aspect of top WR1 to WR200 players.
and how many countries fully sponsor all their players in the WR200.

 

[PoppaChubby]

If you follow domestic circuits in European and Asian leagues, you will also find many non WTT ranked players that are super strong and would easily have world rankings should they see a need for it - frankly, not everyone sees a need for world rankings, some are happy with domestic results.

Not really: JiaNan Yuan being asked to play for France and accepting it after a long time is an example, the pre-requisite was to enter the WTT circuit. Stéphane Ouaiche will enter the WTT tournaments at 30 ! because he's got an alegrian passport too so he'll play under the Algeria flag, and he wants to represent Algeria in all competitions possible because the Algeria government is putting effort and investing in TT. There are many bi-national athletes in Europe that enter the WTT because other nations like Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco are putting efforts in TT, specially in France like Ouaiche as an old player, and Milhane Jellouli as an U20 talent, born, raised, and developped in France.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

possible because the Algeria government is putting effort and investing in TT. There are many bi-national athletes in Europe that enter the WTT because other nations like Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco are putting efforts in TT, specially in France like Ouaiche as an old player, and Milhane Jellouli as an U20 talent, born, raised, and developped in France.

so how much does Algeria, Tunisa and Morocco support these players to take part in WTT, yet alone, investing in TT in general.

I think there is false view that because players take part, the gov are funding them..... if only that was the case

 

[PoppaChubby]

Algeria does support A LOT those athletes. Remember: Stéphane Ouaiche is twice a french nationals champion, and until the call from the algerian government last year for the African Games, he never entered any international competition since the WTT exists: the costs were too high we all know that.

Fact is: the FFTT was not eager to pay for him, they were still investing big on Cassin and Akuzzu, we know what happened for these two: they never performed well.

As many other binationals, it's tough to get France investing on you, that's why Medhi Bouloussa has choosen Algeria too. Another problem is Ibrahima Diaw, completely different: he really wants to play the WTT, but Cameroon can't fund him enough. Do you remember the problem with Lilly Zhang ? she was complaining it was to much hard to fund a full year in the WTT, because the US, let's be honest, DO NOT CARE about TT. They care about swimming, tracks and field, basketball, men's american football, female volleyball and female football. There's not high school programs for TT or the ones that exists offers very low scholarships, consequence: the US barely exist on the international TT scene.

So if I tell ya Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia are investing in TT, trust me they do, and for a simple reason: they did not pay anything for the athletes development, as France did the job. Same in Football and the 2018 World Cup: france was the nation that had developed the most athletes in the competition, for north african countries, but also Portugal, and many others. Immigrations has historically played a HUGE part in that, and it's being the same in ALL sports.

 

[lightspin]

If your home organization/country doesn't foot the bill for WTT events, you better have a large fortune to finance yourself with the goal of ending up with a small fortune. The easiest way to earn a living from table tennis is through coaching unfortunately.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Algeria does support A LOT those athletes. Remember: Stéphane Ouaiche is twice a french nationals champion, and until the call from the algerian government last year for the African Games, he never entered any international competition since the WTT exists: the costs were too high we all know that.

i'm afraid I need to burst your bubble.
Of course I hope what you say it is true, but you know me, if I see anything that is not true on TTD, I am going to speak out.

Algeria, Morocco, does not cater for WTT.
If you even follow African table tennis, Algerian and Morocco national players are lucky to even take part in 1 WTT a year.... they mostly get they points from continental events, not from WTT participation. I actually checked, some players last WTT was in 2023.... in Egypt too. There is just no money for internationals, unless you know something that I don't about the future and lots of money - of which if there is money, the money will likely go towards the suits flying than the players flying.

so with all these money Algeria/Morroco that you claim they are throwing in, why the heck is there no WTT at all??
So fact time - tell me which player uses all these gov money from Algeria/Morocco for WTT?

Tunisia does have money for WTT (mostly the youth).

So if I tell ya Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia are investing in TT, trust me they do,

As I said, I do hope what you say is true.....
But until then.... we are back to reality (especially for my friends in Africa)

PS. In case you don't know, I used to coach (and also sponsor) a couple of national players in South Africa, so I have a special place in my heart for African table tennis.
Even the likes of Aruna, does not get funding for WTT - not even for World champs....

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

If your home organization/country doesn't foot the bill for WTT events, you better have a large fortune to finance yourself with the goal of ending up with a small fortune. The easiest way to earn a living from table tennis is through coaching unfortunately.

coaching is only in some countries.
as a player, you can earn fair salary in many countries, and none of it includes WTT participation.

 

[lightspin]

I stand corrected. I have friends in mainland China making 150k a year playing locally and in the super league. In America coaching is the way to go for pure profit. Still the people I know making money in China are ridiculously good players. I know many "reasonably" good players making 6 figures coaching.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I stand corrected. I have friends in mainland China making 150k a year playing locally and in the super league. In America coaching is the way to go for pure profit. Still the people I know making money in China are ridiculously good players. I know many "reasonably" good players making 6 figures coaching.

I got a couple of friends, dropped out of the CNT B team, to pursue corporate tournaments weekly in China.
They make good money and even turn down really high salaries (that I got for them) in top leagues in Europe... (salary too low from top leagues... just imagine that)

China is a heaven for players salary for sure, even European pros are asking me if they could play in these tournaments....

Most of European elites live off league salary.
outside of the few Asian countries, and Europe, I guess, there isn't really any money for players.
for coaching salary, USA is heaven for sure.

 

[JackJohnson]

I got a couple of friends, dropped out of the CNT B team, to pursue corporate tournaments weekly in China.
They make good money and even turn down really high salaries (that I got for them) in top leagues in Europe... (salary too low from top leagues... just imagine that)

China is a heaven for players salary for sure, even European pros are asking me if they could play in these tournaments....

Most of European elites live off league salary.
outside of the few Asian countries, and Europe, I guess, there isn't really any money for players.
for coaching salary, USA is heaven for sure.

Do you need to be a Chinese citizen to play in those corporate tournaments in China?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Do you need to be a Chinese citizen to play in those corporate tournaments in China?

good question
the answer is not really, as I know some HKG and TPE players playing there.
but the problem is, you probably need to be there regularly, so maybe it won't be European elites cup of tea to keep traveling in.

every weekend is its own tournament, and the team would want the strongest there every time.

 

[lightspin]

Also the level in some of these Chinese events are insane. You would need to be in the upper upper tier of Euro players to go to these events and have a chance of winning. There are a lot of ex-CNT players and people who refused to join the CNT for whatever reason, who do well in these events. The money they get just to participate also depends on their popularity and I am not sure some of these events would want to pay money to non-Chinese to show up.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Also the level in some of these Chinese events are insane. You would need to be in the upper upper tier of Euro players to go to these events and have a chance of winning. There are a lot of ex-CNT players and people who refused to join the CNT for whatever reason, who do well in these events. The money they get just to participate also depends on their popularity and I am not sure some of these events would want to pay money to non-Chinese to show up.

you are spot on!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

So if I tell ya Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia are investing in TT, trust me they do,

so confidence
I'm still waiting for you to tell me, which Algerian and Morocco players get money to play WTT.

 

[PoppaChubby]

so confidence
I'm still waiting for you to tell me, which Algerian and Morocco players get money to play WTT.

Bouloussa and Jellouli already does... just saying, man you're a so-called "pros agent" and you can't get news about that ? it's your job to get those informations

Morocco have made some offers to get Marius Benchat, Adam Ghounim and Reda Nemras, born, raised and trained in France. They're U19 players doing the WTT Youth circuit, as they're not playing in french pro leagues their charges are mainly covered by Morocco. They still struggle a bit that's for sure.

World Table Tennis

worldtabletennis.com

 

[PoppaChubby]

Bouloussa/Ouaiche men's double African Games winner

All African Games - Results

results.ittf.com

Mobarek/Ouaiche mixed double finalist same competition (Lucie Mobarek born, raised and trained in France, also semi-finalist in women's single)

All African Games - Results

results.ittf.com