WTT Champions Japan 2025 - 7-11 Aug 2025

[zeio]

Harimoto revealed that he used a brand new tactic, completely different from how he had always played and lost, by sealing off his [Harimoto's own] strongest weapon - the chiquita receives.

p.s.
Added clarification in brackets.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Harimoto revealed that he used a brand new tactic, completely different from how he had always played and lost - no chiquita receives.

He didn't say that he just waited for WCQ to make mistakes after doing the same thing he's been doing for years? I've been lied to...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

tb trying to downplay Harimoto's win? haha

When HT looses, tb has a whole long list of faults for HT
When HT wins, tb has a whole long list of excuses for the looser.

 

[kindof99]

Harimoto revealed that he used a brand new tactic, completely different from how he had always played and lost, by sealing off his strongest weapon - the chiquita receives.

I think it mainly due the fact that he can read WCQ's serve better. WCQ did not use hooked serves for the match that much.

 

[rpb23]

Why was WCQ making so many errors that he wasn't making in any previous match this tournament or a few weeks ago at Vegas Smash? Just suddenly lost his form in the finals?

Good question.
The reasonable answer can be:
The pressure, Tomo's home court support, previous coach Wang Hao's disrespect, and most likely, how a super-motivated Tomo played.
WCQ's many of these all-right loopkill misses were due to Tomo's extraordinary counter loops away from the table. Many of Tomo's counter looked like lucky smash-back to most players which usually occur once or twice in a match, yet, on this day, it happened again, and again, and yet again that stunned WCQ.

So, give Tomo the credit he deserves. On that day, Tomo played like a possessed warrior and he brought WCQ back to earth from the sky he was just a few hours ago when He played Truls.

With that said, next time they meet, my bet will be still on WCQ, simply he is the overall stronger player of the two.

 

[RefereeNumber2]

you know, any sport is just a statistical science. A "BIG" win is really just winning 51% of points. If your opponent is making 1% more mistakes than usual, that is the margin that gives you a win vs a loss.

Harimoto played his usual game, he is a strong rally player.

The idea that this is some enlightened position backed by statistics is laughable. All you've managed to say is that the margins between victory and defeat are narrow, which is obviously true in any high-level competitive sport. You have no way to distinguish between random noise and changes to underlying parameters.

You could just as easily have said,
"A big win is just winning 51% of points. If you make a tactical adjustment that wins 1% more of points, that is the margin that gives you a win vs a loss. Harimoto made some tactical adjustments which were the difference in the match."

Perhaps you're taking the nihilistic position that everything is just random noise, and so all analysis is pointless. There is no statistician who would tell you that is a useful approach to understanding the world. But, it is the best one could hope for if one were completely ignorant and unwilling to learn about the subject matter.

 

[rpb23]

If you played many serious table tennis competition, you know table tennis has a huge mental part. How you perform lie largely on how you feel in the moment.

Once in a while in a match, for whatever reason, you just fell so good about yourself that you didn't think you could do anything wrong and you could hit any shot you like. And, you actually played like that and totally dominated the poor opponent.

On the other hand, many many more times in matches, for whatever reason, you missed a couple of easy put-away shots, then suddenly became a little self-doubt and a little hesitant. And, you subsequently missed more shots and the match.

A few hours before the final, WCQ was in such a 'can do no wrong' mind set, he totally destroyed Truls.
A few hours later, WCQ's invincibility was gone because Tomo went to toe to toe with him and returned more shots than he expected and caused a few silly misses. We all witnessed what happened thereafter as WCQ missed more and more shots and eventually the match.

Table tennis is such an emotionally and psychologically roller coast sport. Player's mental state has a huge impact on how they perform.

 

[TensorBackhand]

The idea that this is some enlightened position backed by statistics is laughable. All you've managed to say is that the margins between victory and defeat are narrow, which is obviously true in any high-level competitive sport. You have no way to distinguish between random noise and changes to underlying parameters.

You could just as easily have said,
"A big win is just winning 51% of points. If you make a tactical adjustment that wins 1% more of points, that is the margin that gives you a win vs a loss. Harimoto made some tactical adjustments which were the difference in the match."

Perhaps you're taking the nihilistic position that everything is just random noise, and so all analysis is pointless. There is no statistician who would tell you that is a useful approach to understanding the world. But, it is the best one could hope for if one were completely ignorant and unwilling to learn about the subject matter.

yeah. That's why you need a lot of data: for example many matches. 1 match doesn't tell the story.

If Harimoto truly discovered a method to force WCQ into so many errors, he should do it every match from now on and he should either win or make very competitive matches.

Until I see that, I just call it like I see it. WCQ played a terrible game with tons of errors. Did Harimoto cause those errors? I doubt it. If he did, then he should do it over the next 5 matches.

 

[TensorBackhand]

If you played many serious table tennis competition, you know table tennis has a huge mental part. How you perform lie largely on how you feel in the moment.

Once in a while in a match, for whatever reason, you just fell so good about yourself that you didn't think you could do anything wrong and you could hit any shot you like. And, you actually played like that and totally dominated the poor opponent.

On the other hand, many many more times in matches, for whatever reason, you missed a couple of easy put-away shots, then suddenly became a little self-doubt and a little hesitant. And, you subsequently missed more shots and the match.

A few hours before the final, WCQ was in such a 'can do no wrong' mind set, he totally destroyed Truls.
A few hours later, WCQ's invincibility was gone because Tomo went to toe to toe with him and returned more shots than he expected and caused a few silly misses. We all witnessed what happened thereafter as WCQ missed more and more shots and eventually the match.

Table tennis is such an emotionally and psychologically roller coast sport. Player's mental state has a huge impact on how they perform.

yes exactly. People need to relax. WCQ had a downward spiral and never recovered. He looked nervous to me too.

 

[joshmak10]

Wang Hao awoke the beast. Congrats Harimoto!

 

[RefereeNumber2]

yeah. That's why you need a lot of data: for example many matches. 1 match doesn't tell the story.

If Harimoto truly discovered a method to force WCQ into so many errors, he should do it every match from now on and he should either win or make very competitive matches.

Until I see that, I just call it like I see it. WCQ played a terrible game with tons of errors. Did Harimoto cause those errors? I doubt it. If he did, then he should do it over the next 5 matches.

No. This is where you need to actually understand the underlying data and data generating process, which are the contents of the actual matches being played. There is a high volume of information contained in the actual match play, which can actually be analyzed if you understand table tennis. Win-loss data are very coarse and small sample by comparison.

And your argument that Harimoto should have a higher win percentage now is also incorrect, because WCQ can also make adjustments in response. The only way to tell whether players are changing/adapting is to actually watch/analyze the matches. However, this would require you to actually learn about and try to understand how the sport is played at the professional level.

 

[TensorBackhand]

No. This is where you need to actually understand the underlying data and data generating process, which are the contents of the actual matches being played. There is a high volume of information contained in the actual match play, which can actually be analyzed if you understand table tennis. Win-loss data are very coarse and small sample by comparison.

And your argument that Harimoto should have a higher win percentage now also is also incorrect, because WCQ can also make adjustments in response. The only way to tell whether players are changing/adapting is to actually watch/analyze the matches. However, this would require you to actually learn about and try to understand how the sport is played at the professional level.

You're free to view it how you like. I view sports as simply a mathematic process.

Steph Curry is the greatest shooter of all time, but he can't make every shot. He has good shooting nights and bad shootings nights.

Yes, opposing teams can make adjustments. But over a large sample size, literally thousands of shots taken over hundreds of matches, his shooting percentage will conform to his long term average ability.

WCQ had a bad shooting night. This would be like Steph Curry shooting 2 for 14 from 3 point on a night. No coach in their right mind would go take a victory lap saying "I discovered the secret to making Curry shoot badly". No, that's crazy. He shot badly tonight, but will be back to normal next match.

 

[RefereeNumber2]

You're free to view it how you like. I view sports as simply a mathematic process.

Steph Curry is the greatest shooter of all time, but he can't make every shot. He has good shooting nights and bad shootings nights.

Yes, opposing teams can make adjustments. But over a large sample size, literally thousands of shots taken over hundreds of matches, his shooting percentage will conform to his long term average ability.

WCQ had a bad shooting night. This would be like Steph Curry shooting 2 for 14 from 3 point on a night. No coach in their right mind would go take a victory lap saying "I discovered the secret to making Curry shoot badly". No, that's crazy. He shot badly tonight, but will be back to normal next match.

I guess your understanding of basketball is just as simplistic as your understanding of table tennis. The idea that players are just fixed entities that rock up and play without any tactical or strategic adjustments/evolutions over time is simply flat wrong.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

You're free to view it how you like. I view sports as simply a mathematic process.

Steph Curry is the greatest shooter of all time, but he can't make every shot. He has good shooting nights and bad shootings nights.

Yes, opposing teams can make adjustments. But over a large sample size, literally thousands of shots taken over hundreds of matches, his shooting percentage will conform to his long term average ability.

WCQ had a bad shooting night. This would be like Steph Curry shooting 2 for 14 from 3 point on a night. No coach in their right mind would go take a victory lap saying "I discovered the secret to making Curry shoot badly". No, that's crazy. He shot badly tonight, but will be back to normal next match.

You're so close to getting the point, see if you can take it one step further and realize that when you face off against a great in any sport the best you can do is put them in positions where they are more likely to fail and that by itself is the achievement since those answers are hard to find and even harder to execute on at the level required to win.

Everyone here is wasting their time trying to convince a stubborn amateur player who willingly has never once even entered the competitive amateur space let alone the professional one, until you can answer these simple questions: when Harimoto loses to Togami (who by the way, was completely dominated by WCQ) why can't we just say that he had a bad shooting night? Why are you all of a sudden able to start coming to conclusions about his entire game he's built over the last several years?

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I guess your understanding of basketball is just as simplistic as your understanding of table tennis. The idea that players are just fixed entities that rock up and play without any tactical or strategic adjustments/evolutions over time is simply flat wrong.

The fact that he compared a best of 7 finals match to a single basketball game rather than a playoff series shows enough. And if a team limited Curry's ability to hit the 3 for 6 games out of a playoff series it would obviously be significant. But again, you are trying to discuss high level table tennis with someone who thinks that a 2000 player beats a 2400 5-10% of the time or whatever.

 

[Metaxa]

I saw two different WCQs today. The one against Truls was outstanding. Here he was 100%. Truls clearly cannot play against the left-handed WCQ. Against Tomo, he played maybe at 97% of his ability and that was not enough. It may be clear that against WCQ, Tomo did find a better system of play than Truls did and you can certainly attribute that as a credit to him. Now it is up to Tomo to confirm that this win is not once in a lifetime.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I saw two different WCQs today. The one against Truls was outstanding. Here he was 100%. Truls clearly cannot play against the left-handed WCQ. Against Tomo, he played maybe at 97% of his ability and that was not enough. It may be clear that against WCQ, Tomo did find a better system of play than Truls did and you can certainly attribute that as a credit to him. Now it is up to Tomo to confirm that this win is not once in a lifetime.

just another great epic win against WCQ after the WTTTC 2022 and Youth Olympic teams final 2018. Who else did that ?

 

[RefereeNumber2]

The fact that he compared a best of 7 finals match to a single basketball game rather than a playoff series shows enough. And if a team limited Curry's ability to hit the 3 for 6 games out of a playoff series it would obviously be significant. But again, you are trying to discuss high level table tennis with someone who thinks that a 2000 player beats a 2400 5-10% of the time or whatever.

On top of that, picking Steph Curry of all people as an example is hilariously ill-informed. It's hard to think of a modern-day athlete who had a greater transformative impact on how their sport was played, from on-court tactics to the strategic elements of team roster construction and resource allocation.

The fact that pro basketball is a radically different game today because of Steph Curry should hint that there is more going on than just "Steph shoots good." The Warriors completely changed how they ran their team to take advantage of his skillset, and it forced the rest of the league to adapt in response.

TB's worldview is consistent with his level in table tennis. Because he's at a level where all that matters is making fewer technical mistakes than his opponents, he thinks professional TT players are just mindless forehand, backhand, and serve/return machines, with no thought given to tactics, decision-making, etc. Although if he does believe that, it doesn't make sense for him criticize Harimoto for supposedly not adapting his game. After all, players just stay the same over time and different results are just random luck...

 

[TensorBackhand]

You're so close to getting the point, see if you can take it one step further and realize that when you face off against a great in any sport the best you can do is put them in positions where they are more likely to fail and that by itself is the achievement since those answers are hard to find and even harder to execute on at the level required to win.

Everyone here is wasting their time trying to convince a stubborn amateur player who willingly has never once even entered the competitive amateur space let alone the professional one, until you can answer these simple questions: when Harimoto loses to Togami (who by the way, was completely dominated by WCQ) why can't we just say that he had a bad shooting night? Why are you all of a sudden able to start coming to conclusions about his entire game he's built over the last several years?

Easy answer to your question.

1) I DID view Harimoto's loss to togami as a bad shooting night. Anytime they face off, i would put harimoto as the slight favorite. Until Togami proves that he is long term the better player.

I did jest and say Harimoto is not even the best player on his team. He is only slightly better, not categorically better the way ML separated himself. When he was 16, Harimoto was categorically the best junior

2) despite having a bad shooting night, i dont think a bad night deserves criticism. However, Harimoto's career average shooting is lower than where i think it could be if he had evolved his style more. So my criticism is his average shooting is too low. But to his credit, he seems much more solid in 2025 than in 2024. I remember a lot more random losses in 2024.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I saw two different WCQs today. The one against Truls was outstanding. Here he was 100%. Truls clearly cannot play against the left-handed WCQ. Against Tomo, he played maybe at 97% of his ability and that was not enough. It may be clear that against WCQ, Tomo did find a better system of play than Truls did and you can certainly attribute that as a credit to him. Now it is up to Tomo to confirm that this win is not once in a lifetime.

Glad somebody else can see the obvious. The wcq vs truls was not the same wcq against Harimoto. He had a bad shooting night.

You say 97%. Honestly looked more like 75% to me. Just error after error, free point giveaway