WTT Champions Japan 2025 - 7-11 Aug 2025

[piligrim]

I saw two different WCQs today. The one against Truls was outstanding. Here he was 100%. Truls clearly cannot play against the left-handed WCQ. Against Tomo, he played maybe at 97% of his ability and that was not enough. It may be clear that against WCQ, Tomo did find a better system of play than Truls did and you can certainly attribute that as a credit to him. Now it is up to Tomo to confirm that this win is not once in a lifetime.

Truls obviously was too slow. He couldn't handle WCQ speed

 

[mamedium]

You understand table tennis so well that you rated your forehand as an 8/10 and thought that 2000 USATT players beating 2400 USATT players is not an uncommon occurrence.

8/10 at what level?
if his FH is 8/10, what is Harimoto's? 8.5 right?

 

[ThePongCommenter]

8/10 at what level?
if his FH is 8/10, what is Harimoto's? 8.5 right?

Don't need to turn this thread into that but here is thread for your reference. He estimated his topspin game as an 8/10 at the 1900 level he has assessed himself at (he is not 1900, and I was giving him 1800 generously) but video shows otherwise.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Don't need to turn this thread into that but here is thread for your reference. He estimated his topspin game as an 8/10 at the 1900 level he has assessed himself at (he is not 1900, and I was giving him 1800 generously) but video shows otherwise.

The point was that I felt my topspin game, fh and bh felt like an 8 relative to the players in my area and around my level. You're free to disagree. But how could you possibly even form an opinion, you haven't seen me play any of the players around me? When I play these 1900 players in my local club and area, I generally feel I have some advantage in topspin points, and I feel I am losing in the serve/receive areas.

 

[NextLevel]

Truls obviously was too slow. He couldn't handle WCQ speed

Truls also doesn't have a real backhand topspin, which is an important thing to have when facing a complete two-winged lefty.

 

[NextLevel]

I saw two different WCQs today. The one against Truls was outstanding. Here he was 100%. Truls clearly cannot play against the left-handed WCQ. Against Tomo, he played maybe at 97% of his ability and that was not enough. It may be clear that against WCQ, Tomo did find a better system of play than Truls did and you can certainly attribute that as a credit to him. Now it is up to Tomo to confirm that this win is not once in a lifetime.

I think you can attribute the 3% to being surprised by the Harimoto changes in strategy and improvements in consistency - again per zeio, he admitted to actively trying to take away the Wang chiquita and say whatever you want, Harimoto was burned badly by it in Vegas but here, the Wang chiquita was notoriously on vacation.

And of course, like against Hugo, the CNT will go back to the drawing board and come up with countermeasures. But on this day, there was no doubt who the better player was, anyone attributing it to luck or WCQ missing is just refusing to accept that Harimoto played one of the best matches I have ever seen a player play today, both strategically and with rally quality. How many times have we seen Harimoto hit the quality of forehand topspins he hit from away from table that were so heavy it looked like Wang was the one playing them after they bounced? And when you compare that Chiquita serve kills in Vegas to today, does anyone believe that Wang mysteriously forgot how to do the chiquita? Maybe they will figure out how to read Harimoto's serve better, but today, he obviously was doing something that Wang could not pick up. That's the 3% right there. When Harimoto pushed Wang's serve badly, Wang became Wang again. It was clear as daylight.

And like against Hugo, Wang could come back with countermeasures that destroy Harimoto tomorrow. But today, Wang played badly because Harimoto played great table tennis.

 

[NextLevel]

Glad somebody else can see the obvious. The wcq vs truls was not the same wcq against Harimoto. He had a bad shooting night.

You say 97%. Honestly looked more like 75% to me. Just error after error, free point giveaway

There was someone on WhatsApp who I was speaking to about Kanak after his win over Dang. He said that Kanak managed to beat Qiu Dang despite his low power game because of his fine touches. And I tried to point out that Kanak's power level has significantly improved. And then the guy said that Kanak doesn't have amazing backhands and that his topspin forehand is not great and is pretty flat and that others spin their forehands drastically, Kanak doesn't have much spin on his forehand and backhand and the trickiness of the his game is what confuses other players.

After reading that, I realized that I really shouldn't be arguing table tennis too strongly with someone who doesn't even understand what is going on screen. That said, unfortunately, this person is someone I may meet in person some day, so I couldn't poke fun at them either. So I just had to stay silent.

 

[NextLevel]

Easy answer to your question.

1) I DID view Harimoto's loss to togami as a bad shooting night. Anytime they face off, i would put harimoto as the slight favorite. Until Togami proves that he is long term the better player.

I did jest and say Harimoto is not even the best player on his team. He is only slightly better, not categorically better the way ML separated himself. When he was 16, Harimoto was categorically the best junior

2) despite having a bad shooting night, i dont think a bad night deserves criticism. However, Harimoto's career average shooting is lower than where i think it could be if he had evolved his style more. So my criticism is his average shooting is too low. But to his credit, he seems much more solid in 2025 than in 2024. I remember a lot more random losses in 2024.

Since Togami has a superior head to head vs Harimoto over their careers when one factors in domestic matches, that is incredibly weird.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I did jest and say Harimoto is not even the best player on his team. He is only slightly better, not categorically better the way ML separated himself. When he was 16, Harimoto was categorically the best junior

When did ML separate himself? How old is Harimoto?

The fact that you seem to think that being the clear best 16 year old in the world makes it a reasonable expectation that you'll be the next ML by age 22 (being the 3rd or 4th best player in the world by that age is a disappointment here) once again shows that you don't know anything about pro table tennis.

Harimoto's career average shooting is lower than where i think it could be if he had evolved his style more. So my criticism is his average shooting is too low. But to his credit, he seems much more solid in 2025 than in 2024. I remember a lot more random losses in 2024.

What you sound like is this: "Based on Steph Curry's early career I think he should've been a career 50% shooter from 3. He's only a career 42% shooter so since he came short of my expectations, that anyone who knows the sport would think is laughably ridiculous for even an all time great, I think he's a bust"

 

[NetProphet]

you know, any sport is just a statistical science. A "BIG" win is really just winning 51% of points. If your opponent is making 1% more mistakes than usual, that is the margin that gives you a win vs a loss.

Harimoto played his usual game, he is a strong rally player.

Ah
That must explain all of WCQs previous wins then....
But was he was just 1% better or did the opponents make 1% more mistakes than usual?

 

[NetProphet]

You're free to view it how you like. I view sports as simply a mathematic process.

Steph Curry is the greatest shooter of all time, but he can't make every shot. He has good shooting nights and bad shootings nights.

Yes, opposing teams can make adjustments. But over a large sample size, literally thousands of shots taken over hundreds of matches, his shooting percentage will conform to his long term average ability.

WCQ had a bad shooting night. This would be like Steph Curry shooting 2 for 14 from 3 point on a night. No coach in their right mind would go take a victory lap saying "I discovered the secret to making Curry shoot badly". No, that's crazy. He shot badly tonight, but will be back to normal next match.

So how do you approach your own development, improvement and matches?
Everything is just numbers that could randomly pop up and so some nights you get BINGO and others you don't?

If you play competition TT then you already know that you can 'intentionally' play a different game against the same opponent based on what has and hasn't worked. And you can also prepare for the nxt encounter with them based on how they played you the last time.

Have you really no credit to give to Harimoto for playing so well?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Glad somebody else can see the obvious. The wcq vs truls was not the same wcq against Harimoto. He had a bad shooting night.

You say 97%. Honestly looked more like 75% to me. Just error after error, free point giveaway

It takes two to make the errors.

You really need to play the sport, to be able to understand it.
Table tennis is the most technical sport in the world to grasp and you trying to view the sport as a statistician but you are also not one.

Table tennis is all about adjustments to every 1% you make or loose - something you don’t know how to execute (based on your threads asking why it goes in, why it doesn’t and look at equipment as the solution).

When HT is loosing, you moan for years that he doesn’t make adjustments. When he is winning, you say his opponent has an off night…. How hilarious is that?
And have you ever thought when the opponent is winning, is also because of adjustments by the winner, just as it is the failed adjustment by the looser?

Table tennis is very technical and its okay to not understand it.
It is not just having a good day or bad day. It is all about what works, and what doesn't work (it doesn't always work or always work) and if the adjustments work or not, and changing again based on more adjustments based on your condition and your opponents condition, or the condition of the fans, the lights, the wind or what ever - and that is why Chinese players are the best at that, as they have most of the ticks covered, its not always about how one plays the sport technically.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Ah
That must explain all of WCQs previous wins then....
But was he was just 1% better or did the opponents make 1% more mistakes than usual?

He will probably say 3.1% or 4.003%

and how he (tb) gets shot in, certain blade gives 2.1% and another blade and rubber combination with booster is 2.8%

 

[turbozed]

You're free to view it how you like. I view sports as simply a mathematic process.

Steph Curry is the greatest shooter of all time, but he can't make every shot. He has good shooting nights and bad shootings nights.

Yes, opposing teams can make adjustments. But over a large sample size, literally thousands of shots taken over hundreds of matches, his shooting percentage will conform to his long term average ability.

WCQ had a bad shooting night. This would be like Steph Curry shooting 2 for 14 from 3 point on a night. No coach in their right mind would go take a victory lap saying "I discovered the secret to making Curry shoot badly". No, that's crazy. He shot badly tonight, but will be back to normal next match.

This is a bizarre take. If Steph Curry is shooting 2 for 14 from 3 point on a night, it might be partially due to having a "bad night." But it's almost certainly going to be significantly due to the circumstances around each shot. Is the guy guarding him getting a hand in his face? Is he being double teamed? In basketball, shooting percentage doesn't exist in a vacuum. It absolutely matters what the opponents are doing. Compare this to golf where a player out of nowhere shanks a bunch of drives and misses putts he usually makes.

You're applying golf logic to WCQ's performance when the entire point of table tennis is to not give your opponents easy shots to put away. Whether it's short pushes that are difficult to attack, long pushes that jam up your opponent, or placement/spin variation on loops, the whole point is to give your opponent even the slightest reason to make a sub-optimal shot if you're not in position to hit a winner yourself. Your opponent has as much control over your shot-making as you do.

These are professionals we're talking about. Even the ranked #100 player will make 100/100 balls on the table in training. To say that the #1 player will have an extended brain fart over 6 games and forget how to hit balls is absolutely absurd. Yes, we've seen pros who have had off days where due to environmental factors (humidity, ball/table unfamiliarity, etc.), injury, or whatnot will find one of their shots not working.

But we saw WCQ play pretty much a flawless tournament beforehand and even a few hours no less. He was used to the conditions, he was not injured, there was absolutely no reason for him to have a 'bad shooting night.' The only reasonable explanation that doesn't dip into the supernatural or some strange statistical nihlism, is that Harimoto was giving him balls and situations that he was not prepared for and not comfortable with.

Were there some ordinary balls from Harimoto that WCQ missed that he shouldn't have? Maybe. But if so, you can't separate those from the context of the variety and unexpectedness of what Harimoto was doing before that. Keeping your opponent off balance is a thing that builds on itself. If an opponent gives you only easy balls and you miss them it's on you. But if your opponent is giving you the kitchen sink and you don't know what's coming and you muck an easy ball that finally comes, that's still on you, but it's also what your opponent is doing to you.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I seriously don't get what everybody is clamoring about. I don't like to argue. Let's just make it simple.

From now until 2028, I will pay you $20 for each game that Harimoto takes off of WCQ. You pay me $20 for each game that WCQ takes off of Harimoto.

Fair Deal? Any takers?

If you are so confident that Harimoto caused WCQ to play poorly, its easy money for you right?
I could also easily be wrong. But my opinion right now is that WCQ played a bad game, had a "bad shooting night", but will recover. Since you all are so confident that WCQ played his best and Harimoto's brilliant strategy forced WCQ into error, come claim your free money from me.

@ThePongCommenter
@NextLevel
@piligrim
@NetProphet

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I seriously don't get what everybody is clamoring about. I don't like to argue. Let's just make it simple.

From now until 2028, I will pay you $20 for each game that Harimoto takes off of WCQ. You pay me $20 for each game that WCQ takes off of Harimoto.

Fair Deal? Any takers?

If you are so confident that Harimoto caused WCQ to play poorly, its easy money for you right?
I could also easily be wrong. But my opinion right now is that WCQ played a bad game, had a "bad shooting night", but will recover. Since you all are so confident that WCQ played his best and Harimoto's brilliant strategy forced WCQ into error, come claim your free money from me.

@ThePongCommenter
@NextLevel
@piligrim
@NetProphet

I actually want to see you enter some rating tournament in the USA, as the answer to 90% of your table tennis questions or problems can be answered in taking part in say 20 rating tournaments.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I actually want to see you enter some rating tournament in the USA, as the answer to 90% of your table tennis questions or problems can be answered in taking part in say 20 rating tournaments.

who cares. Do you want to do the deal or not?
If you can't stand behind your word, you don't sound very credible.

You literally just watched Harimoto destroy WCQ. You spent half a thread arguing about how Harimoto was so good at forcing WCQ into error. You have ever advantage. I'm giving you the easiest offer you ever have, if you believe in the things you say. Harimoto's strategy was brilliant. His coaches figured out WCQ's weakness. Harimoto improved his forehand. Harimoto evolved his technique. Harimoto is still young and just entering his prime.

I just watched my guy get destroyed. He could be mentally destroyed after this. He could go into depression. He could never recover. I literally have nothing, except my belief in mathematics.

Take the deal.

 

[Tembel]

I do not agree with some of the comments here that WCQ was playing at low capacity. Harimoto vs WCQ game was maybe the best match I have seen. For sure one of the fastest games of table tennis ever.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

who cares. Do you want to do the deal or not?
If you can't stand behind your word, you don't sound very credible.

I don't gamble and or do bets. This trait sure have no link to my position in table tennis.
My credibility lies in my knowledge, my connections, my networking, relationships and mutual trusts in the table tennis world.
You think credibility comes from taking win/loss bets, are you a kid?

If you haven't noticed, your credibility is very low in table tennis and all these people that are replying to you, are hoping to reduce your naiviness - they are actually trying to help you.

you know that KTT kid, he is a young kid and has a big heart. He sounds stubborn and misguided, but that is due to his age and his environment.
You on the other hand, a full grown adult, you are worse than KTT by many folds.
and I'm certain with some guidance, KTT will beat you straights with what ever 8 bats you have in your bag.

Its okay to be bad in table tennis, to not understand the sport, or to be a EJ and to be all over the show with multiple equipment in your bag, and have no direction of improvement or to master the game - not everyone is in it to become better in the sport (seems like you be idling for a few years and you just like exploring multiple bats, but your technique is terrible). But to act like you know a thing or two about world number 1 or 2 or 3 or, while you can't even do a forehand stroke.....common now. This is why there is a saying that internet fans all think they are the next national coach.

I wonder what is it in HT that irritates the heck out of you, to be "picking" on him for years?

His screams irritates the heck out of me,but after the match, he is one of the most polite and well mannered professional that I know. His table tennis ability, since a young age (while he is still young today) is considered a case study for many coaches to aim for. He is a table tennis role model for me and I don't like him. I like his table tennis journey and there is a lot of positive to learn from (no players is without flaws)

so excuse my meanful post, but it is the truth, since you trying to challenge my credibility in table tennis - what a joke, lol.
but granted, you have the guts to share your videos and be honest about your challenges and difficulties in the sport, so I give you credit for that. if only zeio and shine have the guts to share their videos too.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I don't gamble and or do bets. This trait sure have no link to my position in table tennis.
My credibility lies in my knowledge, my connections, my networking, relationships and mutual trusts in the table tennis world.
You think credibility comes from taking win/loss bets, are you a kid?

If you haven't noticed, your credibility is very low in table tennis and all these people that are replying to you, are hoping to reduce your naiviness - they are actually trying to help you.

you know that KTT kid, he is a young kid and has a big heart. He sounds stubborn and misguided, but that is due to his age and his environment.
You on the other hand, a full grown adult, you are worse than KTT by many folds.
and I'm certain with some guidance, KTT will beat you straights with what ever 8 bats you have in your bag.

Its okay to be bad in table tennis, to not understand the sport, or to be a EJ and to be all over the show with multiple equipment in your bag, and have no direction of improvement or to master the game - not everyone is in it to become better in the sport (seems like you be idling for a few years and you just like exploring multiple bats, but your technique is terrible). But to act like you know a thing or two about world number 1 or 2 or 3 or, while you can't even do a forehand stroke.....common now. This is why there is a saying that internet fans all think they are the next national coach.

I wonder what is it in HT that irritates the heck out of you, to be "picking" on him for years?

His screams irritates the heck out of me,but after the match, he is one of the most polite and well mannered professional that I know. His table tennis ability, since a young age (while he is still young today) is considered a case study for many coaches to aim for. He is a table tennis role model for me and I don't like him. I like his table tennis journey and there is a lot of positive to learn from (no players is without flaws)

so excuse my meanful post, but it is the truth, since you trying to challenge my credibility in table tennis - what a joke, lol.
but granted, you have the guts to share your videos and be honest about your challenges and difficulties in the sport, so I give you credit for that. if only zeio and shine have the guts to share their videos too.

That's what I thought. All talk, but can't back it up.

Anybody else that actually stands behind their word want to take the deal?