FH Pivot Technique

[schrodingerskoalabear]

I have been trying recently to do some 3rd ball FH pivot open up drills and had some questions, I haven't been able to find clearer answers for:


1. Are you supposed to decide before your serve (based where you think receive will come) that you will pivot? Or do you decide after serving and seeing the opponent's racket ?

2. This question is connected to the first. Where do you recover from your serve? A lot wider so you don't get jammed? Or towards normal BH side and then step into a pivot after seeing the opponent racket?

I guess part of it is, do I recover so I can fully commit into the pivot but might have to cross-step towards FH side? Or a more normal recovery so I can react to shots either side.

 

[HerveMasson]

Short or long serves ?

Short serve you can't pivot right away, opponent has to much time to change direction, you have to perceive as quicly has you can direction of the receive.

Long serve you pivot anyway, speed of serve is to surprise opponents and you take a bet, if your long fast serve is good quality, down the line receive is very hard to do with quality.

Both case you need strong determination, it's a shot you can't do half haerted.

 

[Dr Evil]

1. Are you supposed to decide before your serve (based where you think receive will come) that you will pivot? Or do you decide after serving and seeing the opponent's racket ?

Decide before you serve. The decision can be all-in or it can be more tentative. Depends on the serve.

2. This question is connected to the first. Where do you recover from your serve? A lot wider so you don't get jammed? Or towards normal BH side and then step into a pivot after seeing the opponent racket?

Not pivoting wide enough is probably the most common problem. Hemming Hu recently posted a video about this. If it's not a fast serve then you have to wait an extra beat or your opponent will catch you out. Some receivers are very good at this, so you might consider faking a pivot from time to time. But when you do decide to pivot make sure to give yourself enough room. Sometimes it will lose you the point; pivoting usually has some degree of risk.

 

[schrodingerskoalabear]

Short or long serves ?

Short serve you can't pivot right away, opponent has to much time to change direction, you have to perceive as quicly has you can direction of the receive.

Long serve you pivot anyway, speed of serve is to surprise opponents and you take a bet, if your long fast serve is good quality, down the line receive is very hard to do with quality.

Both case you need strong determination, it's a shot you can't do half haerted.

Mostly long serve, especially fast.

Thanks, definitely agree on the "go full in". The key it sounds like is taking the bet and trusting your serve to narrow their options right into your pivot

 

[schrodingerskoalabear]

Decide before you serve. The decision can be all-in or it can be more tentative. Depends on the serve.

Not pivoting wide enough is probably the most common problem. Hemming Hu recently posted a video about this. If it's not a fast serve then you have to wait an extra beat or your opponent will catch you out. Some receivers are very good at this, so you might consider faking a pivot from time to time. But when you do decide to pivot make sure to give yourself enough room. Sometimes it will lose you the point; pivoting usually has some degree of risk.

This is very helpful as my hesitation is often because of this issue; opponent catching me out. This probably tells me my serve quality needs to be better too.

Also, I thought Hemming stopped posting TT related stuff?

 

[sebi]

On short serves with a slow second ball you might have enough time to wait and see where you opponent plays and then pivot. On long serves I personally would wait a few points to see what my opponent does and then decide if its a good idea.

 

[NextLevel]

I have been trying recently to do some 3rd ball FH pivot open up drills and had some questions, I haven't been able to find clearer answers for:


1. Are you supposed to decide before your serve (based where you think receive will come) that you will pivot? Or do you decide after serving and seeing the opponent's racket ?

2. This question is connected to the first. Where do you recover from your serve? A lot wider so you don't get jammed? Or towards normal BH side and then step into a pivot after seeing the opponent racket?

I guess part of it is, do I recover so I can fully commit into the pivot but might have to cross-step towards FH side? Or a more normal recovery so I can react to shots either side.

1. You decide based on your training. Your training should have shown you what is possible with the serve and pivot combinations and then you use this to make your decision. That said, the kinds of returns you expect to get will influence that decision to pivot and the kinds of returns you expect to get will be influenced by the serve. So I wouldn't go so far as to say that you should decide before you serve, but what you serve is a choice that should be made and that a pivot is an option behind the common returns of that serve is something that should have been determined in training. If you serve something into the short forehand, for example, pivoting would be pretty dumb. But if you serve pendulum sidespin into backhand and maybe it has more side than back this time which means you expect a pop up on a push that will pull into your backhand side, then of course, pivoting is an option and the expected speed of the return will determine when you can pivot. I usually serve dead ball and immediately I see the push coming, I know I can pivot and bring the forehand.

2. Again ,decide this in your training. Ideally, you want to recover somewhat similarly for both serves so that the opponent can't tell easily, but the main thing is to recover in a way that you do not feel constrained from using the weapons that you want to deploy. I probably don't recover to face the table when I am about to pivot ( a bad habit, but I don't move well), but the main thing for me is that everything is broadly figured out in training. This is what you should mostly do. A lot of play is tied to many things, some of which you noted, like ball quality and the options it gives your opponent and ultimately you. And sometimes a better opponent can do things to frustrate you that a worse opponent cannot. And sometimes, even imperfect technique and play can be compensated for with decent practice and anticipation. My pivot footwork isn't great, but I know my serves enough to have a reasonably good idea of what is possible for my opponent to do based on my placement and my ability to pivot or cross over.

TLDR: Work out these things in practice.

 

[schrodingerskoalabear]

1. You decide based on your training. Your training should have shown you what is possible with the serve and pivot combinations and then you use this to make your decision. That said, the kinds of returns you expect to get will influence that decision to pivot and the kinds of returns you expect to get will be influenced by the serve. So I wouldn't go so far as to say that you should decide before you serve, but what you serve is a choice that should be made and that a pivot is an option behind the common returns of that serve is something that should have been determined in training. If you serve something into the short forehand, for example, pivoting would be pretty dumb. But if you serve pendulum sidespin into backhand and maybe it has more side than back this time which means you expect a pop up on a push that will pull into your backhand side, then of course, pivoting is an option and the expected speed of the return will determine when you can pivot. I usually serve dead ball and immediately I see the push coming, I know I can pivot and bring the forehand.

2. Again ,decide this in your training. Ideally, you want to recover somewhat similarly for both serves so that the opponent can't tell easily, but the main thing is to recover in a way that you do not feel constrained from using the weapons that you want to deploy. I probably don't recover to face the table when I am about to pivot ( a bad habit, but I don't move well), but the main thing for me is that everything is broadly figured out in training. This is what you should mostly do. A lot of play is tied to many things, some of which you noted, like ball quality and the options it gives your opponent and ultimately you. And sometimes a better opponent can do things to frustrate you that a worse opponent cannot. And sometimes, even imperfect technique and play can be compensated for with decent practice and anticipation. My pivot footwork isn't great, but I know my serves enough to have a reasonably good idea of what is possible for my opponent to do based on my placement and my ability to pivot or cross over.

TLDR: Work out these things in practice.

Great breakdown, thank you.

It's early days of pivot 3rd ball training but that's exactly what I am trying to get a feel for; what serves give me what options.

In part my question was triggered by the latest musclepong video.
I saw his Taiwanese coach tell him to recover directly more towards the pivot but since serve/spin context was missing, I wasn't sure how generablizable this advice was across all serves.

 

[NextLevel]

Great breakdown, thank you.

It's early days of pivot 3rd ball training but that's exactly what I am trying to get a feel for; what serves give me what options.

In part my question was triggered by the latest musclepong video.
I saw his Taiwanese coach tell him to recover directly more towards the pivot but since serve/spin context was missing, I wasn't sure how generablizable this advice was across all serves.

Ah, musclepong... I think he is learning a lot and he has great coaches, but it will take him time to get to a point where he truly appreciates the complexity of what he is doing. The mental part of table tennis is very important, at the basic level, you have to be able to read the play and read the opponent's options and anticipate and frustrate them. Currently, he is doing this at a very superficial level and he changed to inverted at the worst possible time, he just doesn't realize how much that change is going to set him back in the short term, likely through the end of this year (though if he understood what he was doing, it is probably best for the long term, but even that can be debated),

In general, you should be ready to play the point as a server before the ball gets to bounce on the opponent's side. Musclepong was adding superfluous motions that didn't enhance his recovery. That was what the coach tried to get him out of. But IMHO, while it is great to recover faster and perfectly, it is more important to explore what your abilities allow based on actual practice considering the level of the opponent. Most of us are adult learners and we have lost the days where perfect athletic footwork was possible. Right now, anticipation (enhancing yours and playing well enough to make it work vs the opponent) is where it should be at for most adult learners.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

I have been trying recently to do some 3rd ball FH pivot open up drills and had some questions, I haven't been able to find clearer answers for:


1. Are you supposed to decide before your serve (based where you think receive will come) that you will pivot? Or do you decide after serving and seeing the opponent's racket ?

2. This question is connected to the first. Where do you recover from your serve? A lot wider so you don't get jammed? Or towards normal BH side and then step into a pivot after seeing the opponent racket?

I guess part of it is, do I recover so I can fully commit into the pivot but might have to cross-step towards FH side? Or a more normal recovery so I can react to shots either side.

• Serve, pivot and FH kaboom!
• the most beautiful shot in the whole TH arsenal of shot. Gozo's cold stone heart melts when this is done.
• Learn it well Padawan, before it becomes a lost art. Too many girly BH-2-BH exchange in modern game.
  
  
  
  
  
  

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

To answer the OP initial questions:

I have been trying recently to do some 3rd ball FH pivot open up drills and had some questions, I haven't been able to find clearer answers for:


1. Are you supposed to decide before your serve (based where you think receive will come) that you will pivot? Or do you decide after serving and seeing the opponent's racket ?

2. This question is connected to the first. Where do you recover from your serve? A lot wider so you don't get jammed? Or towards normal BH side and then step into a pivot after seeing the opponent racket?

I guess part of it is, do I recover so I can fully commit into the pivot but might have to cross-step towards FH side? Or a more normal recovery so I can react to shots either side.

• A1: Once serve you must immediately pivot the the far corner of the BH and prep your body for the incoming ball for your FH bomba, No hesitation, no second thoughts. Hence you must first, have a very purposeful serve.
• A2(i): Choose to go a lot wider to the BH corner prevent being jammed. It is no time to go pussy-footing.
• A2(ii): Choose a slight BH stance if you do not have the confidence and choose to play it safe, but if you choose option A2(ii) then you will more often than not play BH to BH and miss the joy and satisfaction of a FH bomba.
• If opponent can block your FH bomba down the line, there is nothing much you can do, because this is a high risk high reward shot. Just acknowledge his good blocking skill.
• He gets the applause.
• If opponent block poorly and the ball pops up, then it would be a wonderful and marvelous opportunity to showcase your footwork talent.
• If you successfully FH bomba a second time, 110% guarantee you'll get audience applause instead.
• Either way, you and your opponent impresses the audience.

 

[Amayzde]

Pivoting on 3rd ball is something thats not too difficult assuming your forehand is already very good, hence you want to use it more. But there is a few important nuances you should understand before mindlesly trying to pivot on every 3rd ball.

1. Its mostly about prediction. Its unrealistic to be ready for evey receive your opponent throws at you. You even see the pros occasionally get surprised by the receive of their opponent. For us it even comes more down to prediction, because no way we are gonna have the footwork of Ryu Seung Min.

2. Know your serves, and how they react on your opponents bat. You need to know exactly what spin is on your own serves and how that spin is going to react on your opponents bat. This way you predict where the ball will go right before your opponent touches the ball. This gives you that half a second extra to turn the backhand corner.

3. Its better to overmove, then to undermove. This is something I learnt from Heming Hu. When you pivot, its better to move too much to the backhand corner the too little to prevent getting jammed.

4. Dont make it your main strategy. This one comes from personal experience. I was pretty much had point 1. and 2. down to the poin I could get my forehand on every 3rd ball against worse opponents that didnt have the awareness nor the receiving skills to prevent me from doing it. But against better opponents who wouldnt let me do it, made me look silly. If all you do is start pivoting from the beginning, you are programming your opponent to prevent you from doing it.

5. Know when to do it. This adds to the last point of not trying to make this your main strategy, but rather make it a secret weapon. Take notes in your head on what serves you did, and what their receive was: "The 3rd ball I got on serve X I could pivot on". Dont start overusing this serve but rather save this information for crucial moments. If I had to state a rule, only do it once every 6 serves to prevent your opponent from getting too much adaptation.

6. Practice differently against different level opponents. Make your practice challenging according to your opponent. When playing an opponent you know that is below your level, make it more difficult for yourself by getting your forehand in on every 3rd ball (so pivot every time the ball comes to the backhand). This lets you get the nessecary repetitions in to get good at serving and predicting. Then when playing against better opponents, try to do it at the right moments and gain the confidence you need to score points in crucial moments.