I am a TPB-only player for now. Out of curiosity, is it easier to do TPB with Cpen or Jpen?

[suds79]

For those Jpeners out there who are traditional in style. Meaning not two-sided or anything like that (I made a post earlier why you should try it but anyways), recent posts here have talked about how to get a lot of wrist action. See that heavier set kid in the videos above and now this over the table flip by one of Cazuo's students.

As a TPB player myself (again try the Anti or LPs on that opposite side. you're welcome), I've spent time exploring "how can I make my TPB more like a traditional BH like shakehander get or Cpeners get with the RPB. I'm of the opinion you're wasting some time here. It's just never going to be a thing. you need to have a steady good directional BH and ready to step around with your big FH. That's your game.

So for the big kid with the good whip action. Yes it works for him but so often with Jpen you're close to the table and you do that straight forward block in front of your body. Note he's way off the table to get that swing going. That's not a spot you want to be in. Your normal TPB block or punch just isn't like that stroke he's doing.

Here's a video of Ryu Seung Min answering a question when a student wanted to learn how to flip a backspin serve. Take note to his response. It's really smart. As a buddy of mine at club says, "do you want to look pretty with shots? or do you want to win?" IMO best to just play the better tactical & much, much higher % shot.

If one is a penholder and they're really, really interested in flipping serves, etc. Then you should just play Cpen and use the RPB. It's immensely easier.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

For those Jpeners out there who are traditional in style. Meaning not two-sided or anything like that (I made a post earlier why you should try it but anyways), recent posts here have talked about how to get a lot of wrist action. See that heavier set kid in the videos above and now this over the table flip by one of Cazuo's students.

As a TPB player myself (again try the Anti or LPs on that opposite side. you're welcome), I've spent time exploring "how can I make my TPB more like a traditional BH like shakehander get or Cpeners get with the RPB. I'm of the opinion you're wasting some time here. It's just never going to be a thing. you need to have a steady good directional BH and ready to step around with your big FH. That's your game.

So for the big kid with the good whip action. Yes it works for him but so often with Jpen you're close to the table and you do that straight forward block in front of your body. Note he's way off the table to get that swing going. That's not a spot you want to be in. Your normal TPB block or punch just isn't like that stroke he's doing.

Here's a video of Ryu Seung Min answering a question when a student wanted to learn how to flip a backspin serve. Take note to his response. It's really smart. As a buddy of mine at club says, "do you want to look pretty with shots? or do you want to win?" IMO best to just play the better tactical & much, much higher % shot.

If one is a penholder and they're really, really interested in flipping serves, etc. Then you should just play Cpen and use the RPB. It's immensely easier.

Precisely
There is a reason why jpen is on the extinction list

 

[Lando]

Might it be this one?

YES!
Thank you so much!

 

[PenHoldSandro]

YES!
Thank you so much!

No problem! I've tried it before, and this variation is... kinda useless. It tries to copy the speed of the shakehand/Cpen version, which is like telling an orca to climb a tree. orcas are extremely powerful, but they can't climb tress. For a TPB flick, focus more on the placement and spin (TPB's better points than SH/Cpen), which makes the shot a LOT more dangerous and can lead to an easy forehand nuke.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Precisely
There is a reason why jpen is on the extinction list

Truly unfortunate for Jpen... it needs innovation or a merging with Cpen to make it great again!

 

[blahness]

For those Jpeners out there who are traditional in style. Meaning not two-sided or anything like that (I made a post earlier why you should try it but anyways), recent posts here have talked about how to get a lot of wrist action. See that heavier set kid in the videos above and now this over the table flip by one of Cazuo's students.

As a TPB player myself (again try the Anti or LPs on that opposite side. you're welcome), I've spent time exploring "how can I make my TPB more like a traditional BH like shakehander get or Cpeners get with the RPB. I'm of the opinion you're wasting some time here. It's just never going to be a thing. you need to have a steady good directional BH and ready to step around with your big FH. That's your game.

So for the big kid with the good whip action. Yes it works for him but so often with Jpen you're close to the table and you do that straight forward block in front of your body. Note he's way off the table to get that swing going. That's not a spot you want to be in. Your normal TPB block or punch just isn't like that stroke he's doing.

Here's a video of Ryu Seung Min answering a question when a student wanted to learn how to flip a backspin serve. Take note to his response. It's really smart. As a buddy of mine at club says, "do you want to look pretty with shots? or do you want to win?" IMO best to just play the better tactical & much, much higher % shot.

If one is a penholder and they're really, really interested in flipping serves, etc. Then you should just play Cpen and use the RPB. It's immensely easier.

Yep precisely. The problem is not that you cant do sidespin flicks - with Xu Xin style strawberry shots you can in fact flick it with both sidespin directions with just FH rubber and it is way more deceptive than shakehand, but does it really help?

The flick just forces the game to go into topspin rally mode which is usually unfavourable for penholders unless you are really good with the topspin rally.

 

[Marc!_]

yep
I seen it plenty of times before (Im from Taiwan, and Taiwan had a lot of jpen pros)
Again, not so good in 40+ era

Do you guys have any videos for it other than the DuDu one? cause he rarely ever uses it and its not very consistent.

 

[Marc!_]

Wow, I was not looking closely and it looked like this guy was playing rpb. Really incredible power and stroke.

That guy's backhand hits like a truck...thats crazy...I thought JPEN strat was just move to FH all the time but ig this works

 

[PenHoldSandro]

That guy's backhand hits like a truck...thats crazy...I thought JPEN strat was just move to FH all the time but ig this works

I've never seen a backhand like this. Looks like he used ALL his weight to his advantage! Truly spectacular

Do you guys have any videos for it other than the DuDu one? cause he rarely ever uses it and its not very consistent.

Nope, haven't seen any other...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Do you guys have any videos for it other than the DuDu one? cause he rarely ever uses it and its not very consistent.

nope
those players are all retired and are national coaches, haha

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Truly unfortunate for Jpen... it needs innovation or a merging with Cpen to make it great again!

again Cpen is slowly getting extinct.
Jpen is just faster because penholders will normally choose Cpen over Jpen
but Shakehand is still the main reason why there are no more penholders.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

nope
those players are all retired and are national coaches, haha

Yikes, might be better to NOT ask for the tpb flick from dudu...

again Cpen is slowly getting extinct.
Jpen is just faster because penholders will normally choose Cpen over Jpen
but Shakehand is still the main reason why there are no more penholders.

Darn you, bias!

But then again what's truth is truth, no denying that. Real unfortunate tho that some changes (ball especially) are big aids in the end of penhold. Like Xu Xin being forced to a more rpb style, and rsm retiring. Such sad times for table tennis with one shakehand attacker vs another shakehand attacker...

Really I wish people would understand the pros of penhold and some would switch to it, since penhold has some pros which make it suited for some styles better, just that it's much harder to learn 😡😡😡

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yikes, might be better to NOT ask for the tpb flick from dudu...

Darn you, bias!

But then again what's truth is truth, no denying that. Real unfortunate tho that some changes (ball especially) are big aids in the end of penhold. Like Xu Xin being forced to a more rpb style, and rsm retiring. Such sad times for table tennis with one shakehand attacker vs another shakehand attacker...

Really I wish people would understand the pros of penhold and some would switch to it, since penhold has some pros which make it suited for some styles better, just that it's much harder to learn 😡😡😡

That is why Im interested to see if Felix has revived it somewhat… there isnt any front line penholder in Asia today

 

[Marc!_]

That is why Im interested to see if Felix has revived it somewhat… there isnt any front line penholder in Asia today

For me it skill kinda sucks though, cause the game is so speed based, where as old rallies with penholds were "very serious" like Ma Lin, RSM who preferred to ended the rally in 1-3 shots (maybe more strategy based, whereas now its more consistency-speed based)

 

[Lando]

No problem! I've tried it before, and this variation is... kinda useless. It tries to copy the speed of the shakehand/Cpen version, which is like telling an orca to climb a tree. orcas are extremely powerful, but they can't climb tress. For a TPB flick, focus more on the placement and spin (TPB's better points than SH/Cpen), which makes the shot a LOT more dangerous and can lead to an easy forehand nuke.

Yup, if I try anything fancy on the bh with a short ball, it's usually a shoddy attempt at a strawberry flick or a simple push with placement.

The precision penhold provides is one of the major reasons I don't switch grips, even though I should since I am so out of shape lol. I don't have the stamina to go loop for loop for more than like 3 points per game lol

 

[greenbeanmachine]

Might it be this one?

This is an effective flick sometimes, but you can only do it against light spin. Heavy spin will go into the net -- it's not truly a banana flick because you can't get under the ball from the left side (assuming right-handed). The best you can get is maybe on the top left side if you have a flexible wrist.

The more effective TPB flick in my opinion is the strawberry. You can be very deceptive with it, which makes up for the lack of power -- just don't do it every single ball. There are some iconic plays of Xu Xin doing this.

There is one more option for flicking underspin as a penholder, though it is a little bit hard to execute with inverted rubber. I learned it when playing with short pips FH. Basically you just get the racket under the ball and then hit it upwards and forwards. It's a no-spin ball which can confuse the opponent. With short pips this is very deadly, but with inverted rubber it's not as fast, and you have to read the spin exactly right or you will miss.

 

[Lando]

That guy's backhand hits like a truck...thats crazy...I thought JPEN strat was just move to FH all the time but ig this works

Exactly!
Maybe that bh isn't enough at a pro level, but at our amateur level, that bh wins points.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

For me it skill kinda sucks though, cause the game is so speed based, where as old rallies with penholds were "very serious" like Ma Lin, RSM who preferred to ended the rally in 1-3 shots (maybe more strategy based, whereas now its more consistency-speed based)

the olden days, the ball was faster and more spinier and the first 3 shots will mostly determine the outcome of the game.
ITTF thought with that, the gap between stronger and weaker player was too vast and wanted to slow the ball down, reduce the spin, so the playing field can become more even.

every time the ball went bigger, the rallies became longer and when rallies become longer, a two winged approached became more necessary, and with that, the decline of jpen or single sided penhold.
Today, it is just not viable being single sided. Probably still okay in the amateur space, but that is pretty much it.

 

[Marc!_]

the olden days, the ball was faster and more spinier and the first 3 shots will mostly determine the outcome of the game.
ITTF thought with that, the gap between stronger and weaker player was too vast and wanted to slow the ball down, reduce the spin, so the playing field can become more even.

every time the ball went bigger, the rallies became longer and when rallies become longer, a two winged approached became more necessary, and with that, the decline of jpen or single sided penhold.
Today, it is just not viable being single sided. Probably still okay in the amateur space, but that is pretty much it.

Thanks for response. I forgot to factor in the ball size issue. My dad who played in the 80s recently got back into playing and he hasnt noticed the ball size, but I remember talking to him about it and he said when he had to TPB block the ball, the angle was very low facing downward when the opponent topspinned it.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

The more effective TPB flick in my opinion is the strawberry. You can be very deceptive with it, which makes up for the lack of power -- just don't do it every single ball. There are some iconic plays of Xu Xin doing this.

This is very true. I even do this sort of stroke in a far from table game, where I have to recover. I prefer using that than the forehand alternatives.

the olden days, the ball was faster and more spinier and the first 3 shots will mostly determine the outcome of the game.
ITTF thought with that, the gap between stronger and weaker player was too vast and wanted to slow the ball down, reduce the spin, so the playing field can become more even.

This makes more sense now, but I feel like they shouldve kept it celluloid. That still lets the ball spin a lot.

every time the ball went bigger, the rallies became longer and when rallies become longer, a two winged approached became more necessary, and with that, the decline of jpen or single sided penhold.
Today, it is just not viable being single sided. Probably still okay in the amateur space, but that is pretty much it.

This one is right. Unless some rando can actually do some absolutely innovating technique, like mastering this one "otpb" thing I made when I was still jpen. But if not, jpen will die out in the top levels and will be replaced with cpen and shakehand. These two are roughly equal with their own pros and cons, but the problem is that shakehand is easier to learn.