Thinking of upgrading

[immacupcake]

Hello everyone. I am thinking of upgrading my setup. Currently, I am using the Butterfly Petr Korbel blade, Glayzer on fh, and Rozena on bh.
Playstyle: I am a shakehand attacking player. I generally take every opportunity to attack. I generally give low fast/slow forehand loops against backspin.

Potential Upgrades
BH - Butterfly D05
FH - Butterfly D05, Xiom C55, Butterfly D09c
(I am unsure for D09c as for a player of my level, it is hard to even bring out half of its full potential)
Blade - FZD ALC, DHS HL5X

I am open to suggestions and I am willing to provide some more insights on my playstyle

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

changing to faster blade and rubber at the same time might not be a good idea - it is all related to your level.
I would just settle for Tenergy 05 on the same blade you have now and see how it goes.

 

[WingTT]

There isn't such a thing as bringing out a rubbers potential. It you like how it feels and what it does, then it is right for you. Try the different setups of your club members to see what might feel right to you. It is the same with blades. Don't let preconceived notions from stopping you from trying out and finding out what works. You may find outer ALC works for you if it has a large head (>158mm) and is not too thick (< 6mm) for example as it did for me. I preferred the Long 5 over the Long 5X because it has better spin feel due to it's more flexible nature. My opinion is you will get better control with the newer harder rubbers with the plastic ball than the previous generation Tenergy 05 but it may be different for you.

 

[Tyce]

The logical upgrades in rubbers would be from Glayzer to Dignics, and from Rozena to Tenergy.
Are you sure about upgrading both blade and rubbers at the same time though? When you change everything at once it's harder to adjust and to tell which part is working well or not.

I would personally pick the Fzd and put a new set of Glayzer/Rozena on.

 

[Airoc]

changing to faster blade and rubber at the same time might not be a good idea

That is true.
If it goes well it´s all nice and smooth, but might still take time to adjust.
If it doesn´t, you wouldn´t know what´s to blame.

 

[Angerer]

Hello everyone. I am thinking of upgrading my setup. Currently, I am using the Butterfly Petr Korbel blade, Glayzer on fh, and Rozena on bh.
Playstyle: I am a shakehand attacking player. I generally take every opportunity to attack. I generally give low fast/slow forehand loops against backspin.

Potential Upgrades
BH - Butterfly D05
FH - Butterfly D05, Xiom C55, Butterfly D09c
(I am unsure for D09c as for a player of my level, it is hard to even bring out half of its full potential)
Blade - FZD ALC, DHS HL5X

I am open to suggestions and I am willing to provide some more insights on my playstyle

As someone who played with Glayzers (both normal and 09c), I would say these rubbers are totally fine to develop with, same as Rozena.
Dignics are just too demanding, hard to bottom out, and generally aimed at advanced players. If you're really determined to switch rubbers, maybe Tenergy 05fx, Rasanter R45/48, and Xiom Vega X would be good--still plenty of speed/spin/penetration, yet controllable and not physically demanding. I would not recommend leaping towards 55-degree hard rubbers.

Rather, I would suggest changing the blade -- both Viscaria and FZD/JJK/TB would be fine upgrades to boost speed and spin.

 

[jk1980]

i think a good reality check for these "i think i should upgrade to a faster setup"-thoughts are to actually make a video of your matches that clearly show that you do great spin and placement using complex strokes like chiquita and chop blocks with your current setup and that you simply lose because your setup is too slow.

Then you upload the video here, then people can propose fitting setups, but let's be honest: you will fail at picking any video displaying that you outgrew your current setup in the first place.

If you want to be a basement player that can counter and block a bit, Ok, but then you dont need another setup.

 

[jk1980]

Rather, I would suggest changing the blade -- both Viscaria and FZD/JJK/TB would be fine upgrades to boost speed and spin.

In what universe would an outer alc blade boost spin compared to a korbel ?
i guess we really live in a multiverse with different realities.

 

[Tyce]

In what universe would an outer alc blade boost spin compared to a korbel ?
i guess we really live in a multiverse with different realities.

Gram for gram, none. But there's reasons why it could be better that don't necessarily pertain to the materials:

Weight and maneuverability. It's not bad but Korbel isn't a nimble blade and lighter Korbels are less powerful which brings me to point two:
Easy speed means you can put more attention to spinning the ball and less to generating speed.

But in the end, it's not going to make a significant difference either way once you get used to the blades.

 

[ttarc]

In what universe would an outer alc blade boost spin compared to a korbel ?
i guess we really live in a multiverse with different realities.

There's basically zero difference in spin between a slow and a fast blade 1) 2) Tiefenbacher and Durey measured a difference of around 2% between a slow defensive and a 1-ply hinoki blade 1). The most important factor for spin is the rubber and of course technique.
And as Tyce said: I can focus better on precise contact and brushing with a (outer) carbon blade than with an all-wood blade. Personal preference: the feedback from many outer carbon blades is better/more precise (TTGearLab measures this too) which also helps.

1) The impact of the table tennis ball on the racket, Tiefenbacher, Durey, 1994, https://www.ittf.com/ijtts_nr2/
2) TTGearLab's comment below https://ttgearlab.com/2024/03/15/performance-indices-db-5-ply-wood-blades-incl-36-ply-wood/

 

[Angerer]

In what universe would an outer alc blade boost spin compared to a korbel ?
i guess we really live in a multiverse with different realities.

Tyce pretty much covered the logic behind the idea. You rely on a carbon blade to produce speed and can afford making thinner contact to produce more spin.

 

[jk1980]

i will not go into the topic of tiefenbachers studies, because i have already read through it in the past and found several points that make it not apply to modern table tennis or rather all the factors that exists nowadays.
The study was fine for what it is. a study pre 2000 with the capabilities like recording with 50 Hz/fps on a VHS to measure spin. Let's be honest, that approach might have been the best Tiefenbacher could do with his limited resources, but recording with potato resolution on VHS and low FPS compared to nowadays possiblities is pointless to me. Many variables are ignored because they are allegedly having a too low impact and then the thesis that only the elasticity of the rubber being responsible for the spin but totally willfully ignoring friction and stickiness. If the chinese just knew that the H3 topsheet is so bad for producing spin and they ought to rather play very elastic euro rubbers.

The study does not even test outer ALC or whatever composite blades iirc. You trying to simply transfer the findings that "all wood" blades with different wood plies dont differ much onto the differences between all wood and outer ALC is rather wild.

On top of that this study was not peer reviewed or replicated by somebody else. Just because it is the only thing we got does not make it right or great.
There is an even more recent study from 2019 which makes things quite better but they were limited to 66 rps which is ok for an underspin ball but totally unrealistic for a topspin loop where we are talking about 100 rps and above.

I can see that many of you want to justify whatever fast setup you play and you can play whatever you want.

You can lie to yourself and say that you get the same amount of spin with a viscaria like with the korbel, but simplest physics would prove you wrong already.

The faster the ball leaves the racket the less time it spends on the rubber which would require you to have more acceleration of the racket to gain the same amount of spin (given both blades have the same rubber).

I have tested it and it was very clear to see with identical rubbers between i.e. Nittaku Acoustic and W968 the later would produce around 10% less spin.

I challenge you to go anywhere with a spinsight setup and use two identical rubber combinations on an all wood and outer alc and test it there. You wont get more spin out of the other outer alc.

All the hubbub about "you can concentrate better on the contact" is moot, because the question was clearly posted by a intermediate at best. He has other things to worry about than having more of a brushing contact to stop shooting holes into the gym walls.

If you think you can win better with losing 20% spin going to FZD ALC with Dignics 09c, then hey whatever floats your boat.

Dont make this into a justification of your own setup thread. It is about the original poster. Perhaps he proves me wrong and posts a video of himself which shows himself to have great athleticism and him really being capped by his setup, but i strongly doubt it.

Somebody who plays 47° rubbers on an all wood will severly take a hit in consistency bumping up the hardness of the rubber and stiffness of the blade at the same time.

 

[Sriver1]

The faster the ball leaves the racket the less time it spends on the rubber which would require you to have more acceleration of the racket to gain the same amount of spin (given both blades have the same rubber).

Why? It makes no sense.

 

[jk1980]

Why? It makes no sense.

And i thought I was the one that did not listen much on the physics lessons in school...

This is what AI/Grok will tell you:

More Spin in Table Tennis: Fast Blade vs. Slower Blade with Constant Racket Speed and Tangential HitWith constant racket speed and a tangential hit (i.e., a stroke where the ball is mainly contacted tangentially through friction to generate spin), a slower blade (e.g., ALL or DEF) generally produces more spin than a fast blade (e.g., OFF+ or OFF). This is due to the physics of the impact: Spin is created by the friction between the ball and the rubber, which transfers a tangential impulse. A slower blade dampens the impact more, extends the contact time, and allows for better grip transfer, leading to higher spin. A fast blade, on the other hand, is stiffer, shortens the contact time, and converts more energy into linear speed, reducing spin.Physical Explanation

• Contact Time and Friction: Spin generation depends on the tangential coefficient of restitution (T_par), which is determined by the friction time. With constant racket speed (e.g., 10 m/s), the relative tangential velocity remains the same, but a damping blade (slower) extends the interaction (up to 5–10 ms instead of 2–5 ms for a fast blade). This increases the tangential impulse (Spin = Impulse / Moment of Inertia of the ball) by up to 20–30%, depending on the rubber.
• Energy Distribution: Fast blades (stiff, e.g., with carbon) have a higher normal coefficient of restitution (E_par), directing more energy into ball speed and less into friction. Slower blades (soft, e.g., 5-ply all-wood) prioritize elasticity and dwell time, enhancing the "Tangential Effect."
• Assumption of Tangential Hit: This focuses on pure grazing contact – ideal for topspin or sidespin. Without variations in racket angle, the effect depends on the blade.

Comparison in a Table

Aspect	Fast Blade (e.g., OFF+)	Slower Blade (e.g., ALL)	Advantage for Spin
Stiffness	High (stiff, inelastic) – shorter contact time	Low (damping) – longer contact time	Slower (more friction)
Spin Potential	Lower (more speed, less grip)	Higher (better tangential transfer)	Slower
Speed	Higher (E_par ~0.85–0.9)	Lower (E_par ~0.7–0.8)	Fast
Example Player	Offensive power players (e.g., for smashes)	Spin-oriented all-rounders (e.g., for loops)	-
Recommendation	For speed + moderate spin	For maximum spin at the same speed	Slower

Practical Tips for Maximizing Spin

• Combine a slower blade with spin-rich rubber (e.g., tensor rubber with high friction, like Tenergy 05) for the best effect.
• Technique: Use an open racket angle (45–60°) and accelerate tangentially (like a "wipe" rather than a punch).
• Testing: With constant arm speed (e.g., measured with a speed gun), the spin difference shows in ball rotation (RPM) – a slower blade can deliver +15–25% more spin.

In summary: For pure spin gain, choose a slower blade – it utilizes the constant speed more efficiently for friction. If you want to balance speed and spin, mix with rubbers. Experiment in practice, as personal technique plays a role!

 

[Tyce]

Level is pretty much irrelevant. You produce less spin with the carbon one, because you use the stroke that you need to use for the all wood blade. If you take the time and train with the carbon blade, that 10-20% will fall significantly, leaving a minimal difference.
But what you get back is a bigger, more consistent sweet spot, which gives you a better chance to produce good spin in match conditions.

Highly elastic blades, and I don't just mean carbon, do make it difficult to learn really ripping through the ball, with topspin, consistently. I believe that learning this drag/slap type of contact is a very important part in developing the feeling of combined friction and impact, if not a critical part.

Yet, the blade that helped me with this type of contact the most recently is, yes, an outer carbon blade. Not a fast one though.

You also seem to have a misconception about elasticity. Chinese rubber, H3 in particular, is highly elastic. The dense construction returns to its own shape really quickly, which is the definition of elastic.