Lower level player (sub 1400) using ALC + 09C vs more controlled equipment?

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ALC is a quite broad range. DHS B2 for example is quite slow, you can easily find a faster all wood blade, some ALC blades are very fast.

There is an opinion that carbon reduces feel. I always played with all wood blades and recently began experimenting with inner ALC blades and I can't say that I feel the ball worse. No idea about Viscaria type blades though.
 
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Is there a case for using ALC w/09C vs a more controlled setup, ie..Rakza 7?
Am I hurting myself by using faster equipment?
No I think the opposite.

I think 09c is a better "training" rubber than Rakza 7. It has more control and dwell time when executing solid strokes. Rakza 7s is just easier to activate on weak strokes.

If you want to improve and learn good technique and generate power and spin, I think D09c is a fine choice, but maybe Chinese setup is even better.

I've been using both Kokutaku 868 and Reactor Tornado V5, both are really good actually. I can play both at a fairly high level, and both are good teaching rubbers because they encourage active stroke development.
 
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I wouldn’t do it.

Even if you are able to keep the ball on the table with this setup, then you wouldn’t be able to get everything out of it. All this setup is gonna give you will be a lack of feeling and lots of frustration.

If you want a carbon blade then a simple no brainer would be the Ma Lin Carbon. Its pretty cheap, good quality and plenty fast for beginners and even advanced players.

Paired with Rakza 7 and maybe Rakza 7 soft for the backhand will be all you need. It might not be as fancy as a Timo Boll ALC with 09C on both sides. But it will make you a better player more quickly and save you alot of money and headache.
 
Is there a case for using ALC w/09C vs a more controlled setup, ie..Rakza 7?
Am I hurting myself by using faster equipment?
I say yes, you are hurting yourself by using fast equipment.

Rakza 7 is probably not the antidote -- it is for beginners and you are not a beginner.

Main thing I would suggest is using a wood blade, though. It can be a fast wood blade, but the wood blade will give you so much more feeling than ALC. If you want a fast wood blade, hardwood blades like Stiga Rosewood, Stiga Ebenholz, and Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive are all excellent options. They are nearly as fast as ALC, and they have the same "pop" feeling that you get with ALC. If you REALLY want carbon, try Stiga Dynasty Carbon.

If you want to improve and learn good technique and generate power and spin, I think D09c is a fine choice, but maybe Chinese setup is even better.
I agree that Chinese setup is better -- Hurricane 3 is the obvious choice, and Skyline 2 is another very good option.
 
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Is there a case for using ALC w/09C vs a more controlled setup, ie..Rakza 7?
Am I hurting myself by using faster equipment?

You should probably be able to answer that better than anyone 😉
How is your shot consistency?
Do you find yourself missing shots long, or lacking control?
How is your blocking?
Are there particular shots that you just can't play, (touch play etc) with that setup?
Can you implement your match tactics against players at the same level as you or do you make too many unforced errors and can't play the shots you need to implement the tactics?
If not then the equipment could be the issue.

Member d3nium wrote a great story earlier this yr too about how going to faster blade & rubbers destroyed his game (was losing to ppl he previously beat etc) so he changed back with great results.

Best setup is the one that allows you to play the shots you want and the one you have the best control with. You just gotta put the ball on the table once more than your opponent. No good to hit one Timo hero shot and then make 3 mistakes....

I'd agree with greenbeanmachine in thinking the blade might be the biggest issue.
Have you tried your rubbers on a 'slower' more controlled blade? That's where I'd start. I'd source a good 5 ply (Korbel or Primorac?) and go from there.

If however you did decide to change rubber ( and that might be a good idea too!) then I'd disagree with the above advice on R7 V 09c.
09c is obviously very good but R7 is much easier for most ppl to learn with. Advanced intermediate players at my club still use R7 and can do almost anything with it btw! I believe Tensorbackhand and Greenbeanmachine both actually struggled in looping with D09c, unless I'm mixing up names from a thread earlier this yr...
It's a fantastic rubber but (so far as I've read and also been told a few times) it's not easy to play with because it requires really good technique and needs to be played actively. If you take from the word actively to be highly attacking then you can imagine the technique and footwork required to be able to attack almost any ball....It just wouldn't be a top recommendation for beginners or those struggling with their game.

Also, switching to H3 or Chinese isn't straightforward at all, Chinese style rubbers take quite a bit of adjusting to.
 
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How is your shot consistency?
Do you find yourself missing shots long, or lacking control?
How is your blocking?
Are there particular shots that you just can't play, (touch play etc) with that setup?
Can you implement your match tactics against players at the same level as you or do you make too many unforced errors and can't play the shots you need to implement the tactics?
If not then the equipment could be the issue.
This is a very good point. I think you're at the skill level where you know most of the basics so you can start developing your own tactics and distinctive style of play. What are your strengths, and how can you emphasize them? What are your weaknesses and how can you compensate / make them less obvious? These questions can guide you in what kind of equipment you should use.

09c is obviously very good but R7 is much easier for most ppl to learn with. Advanced intermediate players at my club still use R7 and can do almost anything with it btw! I believe Tensorbackhand and Greenbeanmachine both actually struggled in looping with D09c, unless I'm mixing up names from a thread earlier this yr...
Yes, I really struggled to loop with D09c. The throw angle is extremely high, and it doesn't let you open up your racket to get a good swing at the ball.

Rakza 7 is much friendlier to your skill level than D09c, and it is certainly possible to play very well with it at an intermediate-advanced level. You can use Rakza 7 to gain another 300 points or so, but (as far as I know) almost no one above ~1700 uses it. Hurricane 3, however, will allow you to get much higher than that.

It's a fantastic rubber but (so far as I've read and also been told a few times) it's not easy to play with because it requires really good technique and needs to be played actively. If you take from the word actively to be highly attacking then you can imagine the technique and footwork required to be able to attack almost any ball....It just wouldn't be a top recommendation for beginners or those struggling with their game.
Definitely I agree with this. D09c is most useful for professional players. For mortals like us I think it is too much to handle.

I'd agree with greenbeanmachine in thinking the blade might be the biggest issue.
Have you tried your rubbers on a 'slower' more controlled blade? That's where I'd start. I'd source a good 5 ply (Korbel or Primorac?) and go from there.
Both Korbel and Primorac are great blades. My experience is that they don't pair amazingly with tacky Chinese rubbers; the best thing to pair them with is a hard-sponge tensor like Tenergy 05 Hard or Stiga Mantra XH. Dignics 09c will probably be reasonable on this kind of blade. Rakza 7 or Rakza X will also work very well.

Korbel and Primorac have soft outer plies, so they can grab the ball more and have good contact time. This kind of racket excels at producing very spinny balls, and also at looping very slowly/accurately. The downside of this is that they are very sensitive to incoming spin. You have to actively loop with this kind of blade -- blocking and flat hitting is not very controlled. It's hard to counterattack by "hitting through" your opponent's spin -- you have to loop it. Some people can deal with this, depending on their strengths, weaknesses, and tactics. Petr Korbel used this kind of blade and you can see his playing style:


Rosewood, Ebenholz, and Ma Lin Extra Offensive have hard outer plies (and soft inner plies) so the feeling is different. It feels more similar to ALC, and has that same "popping" feeling that you get with ALC (but you have to hit a bit harder to get it). The main strength of this kind of blade is that they have a very controlled touch, so you can touch the ball very precisely and place it very close to the net if you want to. Chop-blocking, changing pace, and making drop shots with such blades is quite easy. Short game is incredible and you can win a lot of points in the short game. Slow looping is not so consistent -- this kind of blade is made for power-looping and chop-blocking.

Ma Lin used this kind of blade, and you can see his strengths of drop shots, chop-blocks, and power-loops:





You can see from the videos that Petr Korbel is a very consistent looper, but he doesn't really have a kill shot. Almost all of his shots are medium-quality loops. He builds his strategy around consistently putting the ball on the table and aiming the loops well. When he wins a point it's not because he overpowers the opponent -- it's because he puts himself in a good position with a good angle and hits a pretty-good shot. He builds his points slowly and uses many hits to create a good angle for himself.

Ma Lin, on the other hand, wins points with power and change of pace. Either he will kill the ball with a power-loop, or he will change the pace of the game (using a drop shot or chop block) and surprise the opponent. Ma Lin also wins a lot of points in the short game, even before anyone attacks.


Also, switching to H3 or Chinese isn't straightforward at all, Chinese style rubbers take quite a bit of adjusting to.
This is also true. I think that looping with Chinese rubbers will be easier than with D09c, though, and you will probably not find them so foreign because (like D09c) they are sticky and have a hard sponge. But certainly there will be some adjustment time -- particularly when getting used to the lower throw angle.

In my eyes, the adjustment period is worth it, because you will be able to stick with Hurricane 3 / Skyline 2 until you are very advanced. You won't reach a level at which Hurricane 3 is holding you back.
 
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No I think the opposite.

I think 09c is a better "training" rubber than Rakza 7. It has more control and dwell time when executing solid strokes. Rakza 7s is just easier to activate on weak strokes.

If you want to improve and learn good technique and generate power and spin, I think D09c is a fine choice, but maybe Chinese setup is even better.

I've been using both Kokutaku 868 and Reactor Tornado V5, both are really good actually. I can play both at a fairly high level, and both are good teaching rubbers because they encourage active stroke development.
What would be a good Chinese setup for a 5ply blade? Am myself intermediate beginner and drawn to this type. (We're talking about a non-tensor tacknon FH and light tensor on BH, right?)
 
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What would be a good Chinese setup for a 5ply blade? Am myself intermediate beginner and drawn to this type. (We're talking about a non-tensor tacknon FH and light tensor on BH, right?)
Yasaka extra offensive with boosted h3 fh (or any suitable substitute that doesn't need boosting) plus xiom vega europe bh
 
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Do you like how your racket feels and reacts? If the answer is "yes" then stick with it. If you are 1400, you need one thing: MORE PRACTICE! Lots of players from beginner to pro use that setup so there is nothing wrong with it in my opinion.
 
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Yasaka extra offensive with boosted h3 fh (or any suitable substitute that doesn't need boosting) plus xiom vega europe bh
Thanks all for your answers! Pretty new to this, so apology for questions that may seem obvious to you.

So, my blade will be a 5ply basic bat (not the donic Smirnov, is just on loan).

I have tried he Xiom vega Europe, seems passable.

What would be a good substitute that does not need boosting. Are we talking like Donic Bluegrip (which version), Stiga Hybrid etc? 0% tensor?

Also, for me as returner to the game – but with many hours in the body since childhood, and the will to train 3 times/week now – would it be preferable to have the samt on fh/bh to get more consistent. I.e. tacky or semi-tacky on both sides? Or is it to hard?
 
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Is there a »semi-Chinese« way? Like Donic Bluegrip J3 (maybe even on both sides?) Is it better to start with semi-tacky, is what I’m getting at, I guess.
Jeah there's many options and opinions on good substitutes for boosted hurricane. To me the closest that doesn't need booster is Loki Arthur China. Many also like double fish volant phoenix or yinhe jupiter 3 without booster. The later two are also available in softer hardness for backhand if you're interested.
I have no experience with donics j series, but most likely it doesn't really matter and you will try different things till you find something you really like. Just start somewhere...
 
What a nonsense omg. Its not the rubber, its your poor technique.
I play with penhold, which is naturally a more open grip. I also take the ball late in rallies, often level with / under the table. This makes it much more comfortable for me to play with a low-throw rubber.

Even pros who play with D09c don't play loops with an open racket. The high throw angle will not allow it. I think it's uncontroversial to say that you can't play as powerfully with D09c as you can with H3, and I think that the throw angle is part of why -- if you have to point your racket substantially downwards while hitting the ball then you are not actually applying force perpendicular to the direction of the ball.

I'm not saying you can't loop with D09c -- obviously you can, or pros wouldn't use it. I'm explaining why I don't particularly like it and that it does have an unnaturally high throw angle compared to other rubbers. I am also explaining why another amateur player, who doesn't have the technique of Timo Boll or FZD, might not like it or benefit from it.

You can get used to D09c and get extremely good with it but objectively speaking D09c has a lot of odd properties. Clearly my technique is at play in why I don't like it, because I've learned to play with low-throw rubbers. But why do you assume that my technique must be poor and that my experience is nonsense? You are just being mean for no reason.

I'm actually giving D09c another try right now, this time on backhand. I'm loving it for quick counterspins at the table, but if I get pushed back I'm finding it substantially more difficult to play powerful loops compared to H3.
 
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Is there a case for using ALC w/09C vs a more controlled setup, ie..Rakza 7?
Am I hurting myself by using faster equipment?
Hi FF,

The Curmudgeon Pundit coaching crowd, which I share some partial agreements, frowns strongly upon faster equipment for beginning players. The argument is that one should feel when there is a mis-strike and feel it. A fast ALC and modern fast rubbers makes it hard to discern a mis-strike. 2nd reason is one can generate some pace with a biomechanically incorrect/inefficient stroke, so the argument is it builds bad habits impossible to fix later.

What is important is to consider WHAT is trying to be controlled... control in my definition is what makes something easy or easier (compared to something (eg, my PPP in my sig vs a Tamca 5000 fast alc) So defining what shot or shots the equipment helps or hurts should be an important consideration and evaluation criteria.

I will give a real wild example, but keep it real. 10 years ago, Korean ex-pro players who retired and ran clubs did not teach slow topspin shots... it was bang it all day long... so a Schlager Carbon with a moderate control class OFF rubber was the most optimal setup to play a game that uses mostly hits, drives, or power loops. My first Korean coach made HUNDREDS of bats for club players with this setup (if they were double inverted players) and it worked for them with those objectives of developing a hitting style of game.

Personally, I select equipment similar to what is in my sig - moderately fast wood blade with easy to feel the ball properties easy to spin ball with rubbers that are not jet rockets. This setup makes it easy to learn all the strokes, feel the ball along the development curve, and still be serviceable as a final setup for an advanced player.

Those are some easy to understand concepts for the main question.

However, not everyone in the sport has easy access to effective coaches and higher level players, so on one level, it really doesn't matter.

Another live example is some years ago, an older 75 yr old player limited mobility handed me his bat... a fast expensive BTY carbon blade and fast rubbers and asked me the very question of appropriateness. I had a 10 second hit and immediately concluded that the bat was inappropriate to develop a modern offensive game with... but that dude wasn't gunna get coaching and wasn't gunna live another 40 years to grow his TT game, so I told him it doesn't matter and he could be happy with his purchase.
 
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It's more about the money wasted. 80€ per rubber that will need replacing multiple times in a year is too much for most people. Even if you replace it once per year it's still a lot. Especially when at our level we can't use it to its full potential. If it was cheap then who cares, it's not like it would matter, but that performance/characteristics that it has, you're paying extra for. Plus I think that 09c in general plays the best boosted, so its lifespan is shorter than most euro/jap rubbers.

As for alc blades, it's preference. If you like how alc feels and plays, it's up to you. Maybe not from the first year of playing, but if you try it and you like it, then its a matter of preference and what feels comfortable to you.
 
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