Forums and freedom, and being capable of self criticism

[pingpongpaddy]

Many years past I was a mod on a tt forum.
I remember deleting posts and threads for
obscenity
excessive repitition,
and other sins
occasionally warning people and very seldom recommending a ban.

At that time I thought of myself as merely helping out to further express my interest in tt
It was no big deal in other words.

But now at 77 I feel that every forum on any subject, is supporting Free Speech.
After all, I now know this is a very big deal.
with what's going on in politics all around the world
We all have a duty to stand up for ourselves and rights.
The mods and admins have a duty to be fair to all. Not easy for them sometimes

mods that can adopt a self critical posture BEFORE uttering the ban word are invaluable


After this 'Tonygate' crisis
I would suggest that in future that the mods have a due process that they adopt in respect of banning:-
The mods should VOTE on bans with admin having casting vote
Dan, hope you can consider this step

 

[JackJohnson]

Many years past I was a mod on a tt forum.
I remember deleting posts and threads for
obscenity
excessive repitition,
and other sins
occasionally warning people and very seldom recommending a ban.

At that time I thought of myself as merely helping out to further express my interest in tt
It was no big deal in other words.

But now at 77 I feel that every forum on any subject, is supporting Free Speech.
After all, I now know this is a very big deal.
with what's going on in politics all around the world
We all have a duty to stand up for ourselves and rights.
The mods and admins have a duty to be fair to all. Not easy for them sometimes

mods that can adopt a self critical posture BEFORE uttering the ban word are invaluable


After this 'Tonygate' crisis
I would suggest that in future that the mods have a due process that they adopt in respect of banning:-
The mods should VOTE on bans with admin having casting vote
Dan, hope you can consider this step

Agree, before deciding to ban someone Dan and the other mods need to decide first on whether a user should be banned or not. It shouldn’t be a decision based on one mod only.

Also when sorting out issues whether it should be done privately or publicly with a mod, I always believe that it should be done publicly over privately so that other users can chime in and decide who is right and wrong cause when things are done privately we don’t get the full picture on what’s going on.

I know why Tony was banned but what did Zeio say that got him banned?

 

[z0uLess]

I doubt they can practically keep a lid on misuse of power in the age of free flowing information, but, personally, I have no information on the case in question. The problem appears when there is too much information for the users to practically relate to (inability to keep up with, inability to digest). I believe that making oneself aware of any form of turn towards totalitarianism should be on the individual forum users priority list.

 

[latej]

Many years past I was a mod on a tt forum.
I remember deleting posts and threads for
obscenity
excessive repitition,
and other sins
occasionally warning people and very seldom recommending a ban.

At that time I thought of myself as merely helping out to further express my interest in tt
It was no big deal in other words.

But now at 77 I feel that every forum on any subject, is supporting Free Speech.
After all, I now know this is a very big deal.
with what's going on in politics all around the world
We all have a duty to stand up for ourselves and rights.
The mods and admins have a duty to be fair to all. Not easy for them sometimes

This is joy to read, because it is real experience, which confirms that we are altogether "waking up"... We need it so badly... It is something I'd almost wish to get out of my head, but it is there all the time... Probably because that is the only chance for us to survive the fight against the evil, manifested in many structures... But if it is happening anyway, why do I need to want it so badly - you see ;-) If only I could relax and believe it's already been taken care by say the Earth itself or so ;-)

mods that can adopt a self critical posture BEFORE uttering the ban word are invaluable


After this 'Tonygate' crisis
I would suggest that in future that the mods have a due process that they adopt in respect of banning:-
The mods should VOTE on bans with admin having casting vote
Dan, hope you can consider this step

I'd say here, that NL is a new mod, and we should give him a chance to learn, do mistakes, learn... You know, let's take it easy... I understand Tony is pissed, and perhaps NL should quickly PM him and say sorry, and let's go... No big deal... Then hopefully Tony comes back.

 

[M51]

Normally, when a disciplinary measure is taken against a user, the moderator would be required to precisely cite the board rule/rules the user has broken.

Also, I don't think that a person with an overinflated sense of self-importance such as NextLevel should ever be put in charge, sorry.

 

[mamedium]

New season on HBO:
Banned of Brothers

 

[AchyGeorge]

I do not know the onboarding process for new mods….i do fear that our new (volunteers) mods have been thrown in at the deep and with very little in the way of support or mentoring. That being the case unfortunately something like this blowing up was always quite likely ☹️. Is a real shame

 

[the-don]

I often wonder what dan is doing.
If table tennis is his main job you would assume he would spend countless hours in the forum.
Yet he seems more like a ghost.

 

[mamedium]

I often wonder what dan is doing.
If table tennis is his main job you would assume he would spend countless hours in the forum.
Yet he seems more like a ghost.

that’s why his ghost serve is… ok

 

[NDH]

Many years past I was a mod on a tt forum.

My condolences!

I remember deleting posts and threads for
obscenity
excessive repitition,

I would argue that this is the *third* thread around such things in less than 24 hours - Does that count as repetition?

But now at 77 I feel that every forum on any subject, is supporting Free Speech.
After all, I now know this is a very big deal.

I fundamentally disagree with this - Not that free speech is important (it very much is), but that every forum is adopting such an approach.

You can't just say what you want on nearly *any* online type of forum that I know of - Every forum/website has it's own rules.

Just because someone may disagree with a certain rule, it doesn't give them the right to break it or cause an issue because of it.

This is a privately owned online forum - The rules are created by TTD - I don't think anyone should expect absolute freedom of speech.

I would suggest that in future that the mods have a due process that they adopt in respect of banning

I don't disagree, but I would highlight that *many* members have been banned previously, and hardly any mention was made to it by others (if any).

Just bear that in mind, and why has this particular issue blown up?

Also when sorting out issues whether it should be done privately or publicly with a mod, I always believe that it should be done publicly over privately so that other users can chime in and decide who is right and wrong cause when things are done privately we don’t get the full picture on what’s going on.

This is 100% unattainable. You can't run any forum by public demand or perception. I appreciate what you are wanting, but it's just not realistic on a mass scale (it might work with a forum of close friends etc, but not a huge multi national forum with 100's if not 1000's of people).

I often wonder what dan is doing.

I alluded to this in the other thread - I spoke to Dan last night and he's knee deep in editing videos, preparing for an international trip and organising many other aspects of the TTD business - It's not realistic that he sits on this forum like other people.

However, he is very aware of everything, and we are discussing the best way forward (for the forum in general).

Like I've said previously, feedback is always welcome - Either in public or via DM (to any of the mods or Dan himself).

 

[pingpongpaddy]

@NDH
sorry what I meant was that an ideal forum - that is, a place for open exchange of ideas is what we hopefully are aiming at as we take part.
A less authoritarian approach would help us all to get along.
tt players have a natural impulse towards winning - and that impulse can sometimes work against the mods need to think twice before acting
I know NL of old and his combative nature
I don't disagree, but I would highlight that *many* members have been banned previously, and hardly any mention was made to it by others (if any).

Probably because of the respect we have for Tony and the way he posts and the qualities he brings as a member we have made a response

Just bear that in mind, and why has this particular issue blown up?
something that could have usefully been discussed by all the mods before taking action

 

[NDH]

@NDH
sorry what I meant was that an ideal forum - that is, a place for open exchange of ideas is what we hopefully are aiming at as we take part.
A less authoritarian approach would help us all to get along.
tt players have a natural impulse towards winning - and that impulse can sometimes work against the mods need to think twice before acting

Oh, it would be great if no moderation was ever needed because everyone could communicate effectively and get on.

But mods are primarily here to ensure the best experience for everyone who uses the forum.

Onwards and upwards! 😊

 

[Sriver1]

¡¡¡Both threads closed!!!

 

[NetProphet]

Many years past I was a mod on a tt forum.
I remember deleting posts and threads for
obscenity
excessive repitition,
and other sins
occasionally warning people and very seldom recommending a ban.

At that time I thought of myself as merely helping out to further express my interest in tt
It was no big deal in other words.

But now at 77 I feel that every forum on any subject, is supporting Free Speech.
After all, I now know this is a very big deal.
with what's going on in politics all around the world
We all have a duty to stand up for ourselves and rights.
The mods and admins have a duty to be fair to all. Not easy for them sometimes

mods that can adopt a self critical posture BEFORE uttering the ban word are invaluable


After this 'Tonygate' crisis
I would suggest that in future that the mods have a due process that they adopt in respect of banning:-
The mods should VOTE on bans with admin having casting vote
Dan, hope you can consider this step

Good post Paddy.
I will say one thing it misses though, while addressing moderators behavior (and basically telling them how to run their forum with a voting process) you have neglected to address individual forum users behavior.
If everyone did what they were supposed to and was always considerate etc then there would be no need for mods at all.
But we do need mods, that is 100% certain.
So starting there, and everyone starting with a clean slate they only tend to get involved when needed. At least I haven't really seen any ott behavior from mods in my time here.
So given that sometimes people post and post and post and don't take a little bit of direction or advice from the mods then what happens is a cool down period.
I cannot see in any way how that is not a good move.
The only reason this has blown up is because the person given the cool down is STILL going on and on and on about it, seemingly mobilising his cronies to put pressure here on his behalf.
That behavior shows that the cool down (not ban) was absolutely justified.
Because most normal people don't behave like they own the place, they just wake up the following day, say fair enough and get on with it. Your mention of self criticism would come in around here I think.
I have seen reflection and willingness to engage, discuss and even apologise from the mods in this case.
So what we're dealing with is someone who is either still angry, sulking or just believes that different rules should apply because they are above a 'ban'.
So I ask again, how is a short cool down a problem?
The answer it seems is only when users decide to behave like this 🤷

 

[TTTT]

Many years past I was a mod on a tt forum.

I'm old enough to remember the About tt forum. Then it closed, and discussion seemed to shift mostly to mytabletennis. Then that went bust, and I thought that perhaps TTDaily could be a successor, so I started reading more and posting a bit. But with the new mod appointment it seems to be another forum destined to go downhill - too bad.

 

[haggisv]

I'm old enough to remember the About tt forum.

I think it was DTTW where he was a mod, if I'm not mistaken... PPP can confirm.

 

[DTopSpirit]

I'm old enough to remember the About tt forum. Then it closed, and discussion seemed to shift mostly to mytabletennis. Then that went bust, and I thought that perhaps TTDaily could be a successor, so I started reading more and posting a bit. But with the new mod appointment it seems to be another forum destined to go downhill - too bad.

As the person who took over from Sean in running the About.com tt forum up until it closed, it's good to see that not much has changed in forum member drama in the 10+ years or more since the About forum closed down!

 

[Metaxa]

It's unbelievable that someone with thousands of contributions is banned without warning or consultation with other moderators, especially after a member had just been promoted to new moderator and after dozens of contributions from the removed member had suddenly been moved to the background or deleted. I really don't understand that. This strikes me as a blatant abuse of power because I didn't get the impression that Tony was at odds with many people here, except perhaps Zeio.

It is and remains a regrettable situation, a TT forum without the contributions of Tony, who had helped countless people here.

My condolences, forum!

 

[NetProphet]

It's unbelievable

Absolutely, not possible to believe 😂

that someone with thousands of contributions

Does the number of posts really matter?
Different rules for people with 20,000 posts, 10,000 posts, 1,000 posts and 100 posts?
Looking at reputation, if NL has twice as many ping pong balls as Tony does that make him twice as important?
If so I guess any behavior is justified 🤷

is banned without warning

He was warned

or consultation with other moderators,

Yes, NL on one coast of the USA should wake up the other mods in NY, London and everywhere else in the world. Because this member is just THAT important 🙄

especially after a member had just been promoted to new moderator

Should be given a break and some respect while adjusting to the role eh?
How about not having his balls broken (table tennis balls of course) by someone who won't show any respect to a mods attempts to moderate.

and after dozens of contributions from the removed member had suddenly been moved to the background or deleted. I really don't understand that.

That has to be a choice because outright politics in TT discussion has always been a no go.

This strikes me as a blatant abuse of power because I didn't get the impression that Tony was at odds with many people here, except perhaps Zeio.

Another thing in a long list of things you have interpreted incorrectly.

It is and remains a regrettable situation, a TT forum without the contributions of Tony, who had helped countless people here.

That is Tony's choice.
Do you understand that?
It is a choice by Tony not to participate here.

My condolences, forum!

The message to everyone is show some respect and discuss things in a measured and responsible manner.
Is that not the kind of forum this should be?

What I find unbelievable is that so many people cannot see who actually owns the forum. Hint, It's not Tony.
It's TT Daily.
And actual, real, ownership comes with actual real responsibility.
The moderators act on behalf of these owners who have made this forum possible for all of us.
Yet somehow (the thinking among some forum members seems to be) that certain members should be allowed to moderate themselves AND also moderate the mods!!! 😳

Absolute lunacy.

A swift apology by both the following morning would have fixed everything.
Your God was the one who didn't want that.

 

[mamedium]

we will miss Tony for sure regardless what he did

even if Tony is back (highly doubt it), i don't think the contribution will be the same

his connection/ contribution to the forum (some may question it) is the real next level we need