NextLevel's Thoughts on Table Tennis: I like to write about Table Tennis

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Moderator
Oct 2014
19,971
26,530
70,870
Read 17 reviews
A friend once pointed me to a video on YouTube where there was a discussion on why Ma Long is the GOAT in table tennis (I think the video got some facts incorrect but let's leave that aside for the moment). My friend liked the video, but my contrarian side was not as impressed. I told him that I rarely get impressed by people who assert the conventional wisdom, I would be more impressed if he explained why the GOAT debate is not always as clear cut as Ma Long's post 2015 dominance seems to affirm. So I decided it would be a good idea to mention some things that people who have decided the GOAT debate in favor of Ma Long tend to omit when discussing the nuances of the debate. After discussing this, I will reconsider some of the evidence that is used to argue that Ma Long is the GOAT and then come to a final conclusion.

The plastic ball: I think the biggest argument against Ma Long being the GOAT is his relative lack of major tournament wins before the implementation and popularization of the plastic ball. I say relative because Ma Long had many dominant tournament performances in the cell ball era and did win 1 World Cup in the cell ball era in 2012. However, the plastic ball tended to make the issues with his backhand easier to deal with and he also made changes to his backhand equipment and orientation after the plastic ball was implemented. Would these changes have been sufficient without the plastic ball making it easier to control backhand attacks? That's a hypothetical I cannot answer. But many players with deficient backhands found it easier to defend and attack with their backhands after the plastic ball was introduced,

The psychological hurdle of Wang Hao: Wang Hao knew how to beat Ma Long at the WTTC events, doing so three times in a row (2009, 2011 and 2013). Is it a pure coincidence that Ma Long finally won a WTTC after Wang Hao retired? Now Wang Hao himself has a reasonable argument for the GOAT with an extended period of strong performance, though his argument for the GOAT doesn't survive transitive comparisons. However, his dominance of Ma Long in the WTTC Singles event will return when we look at some of the arguments that are used to criticize some of the other candidates for the GOAT title who had bad head-to-head records at events or throughout their career against certain opposition, as this is also a criticism of Fan Zhendong's candidacy and something that needs some nuance when applied to the candidacy of players like Zhang Jike.

The relative stagnation of Europe: Let's bring up the concept of consistently great players - in the 80s and 90s, Europe had consistently great players who could compete with the Chinese and other East Asians. You could tell this not just by the fact such players won titles (Waldner, Gatien, Persson), but also by the fact that the tier below or close to them like Rosskopf, Primorac, Saive, Samsonov was also extremely strong. While players like Boll and Ovtcharov came later and were also consistent, the fact that the players from the 80s and 90s often played into thelr late 30s and early 40s could be attributed (admittedly arguably) to the level of the players behind them being not as strong, leading to China having a dominant generation (Ma Long, Zhang Jike, Xu Xin, Fan Zhendong) at the same time Europe's great generation was getting older and other countries did not have great players that were as strong or consistent as the older generations.

Despite all these issues (and I might add more in future version of these articles), Ma Long is considered the GOAT by many. Why would that be the case? Well, his counting stats in the modern era are impressive. He is the only male player with 2 Olympic singles golds (Waldner, Zhang Jike and Kong Linghui all have one gold and one silver). He won three singles World Championship gold medals in singles between 2015 and 2019 and won bronze every other time he participated (2009, 2011,2013, 2023) except the very first time in 2007. IMHO, only Waldner has equally impressive longevity though Kong Linghui has a relatively decent case. There are also some impressive victory/no match lost streaks of 50 matches twice in his career, one happening 4 years before he became world Champion and with the celluoid ball. Moreover, he has continental titles, national titles and a stellar ITTF record (though he amazingly never won a WTT title despite reaching a few finals, but that was partly bad luck against strong opponents).

However, me being who I am, always open to looking at other issues. One thing I always bring up when discussing the GOAT issue is the poor service rules in TT and Ma Long was not innocent in perpetuating this issue in table tennis. One of the early debuts of TTR (table tennis review) that allowed the analysis of serves was in 2017 at the Tour Grand Finals and the umpires faulted Ma Long a few times for tosses that went behind the plane of his body and the calls were upheld by TTR just about about every time. I personally believe without any serious evidence that this is why TTR was hardly seen on the tour until Ma Long retired. No hard evidence of this, but the timing checks out.

Then there is of course the opinions of peers who played against them, which usually agrees with the stats, but not always. Zhang Jike's big match ability during the cell ball era was something to behold and Dimitri Ovtcharov has him as his GOAT. Wang Liqin's career and dominance may have lasted longer if the speed glue era hadn't ended. Fan Zhendong, while psychologically dominated by Ma Long in an even worse way than Wang Hao dominated Ma Long, played great table tennis against the rest of the world.

So is Ma Long the GOAT? I won't hold it against you if you say yes. And I won't hold it against you if you say no either especially if you make the case for players like Fan Zhendong, Zhang Jike, Waldner, Wang Liqin, Wang Hao and Ma Lin based on the eye test or other subjective factors like I did.
Finished the first draft of this. Will write on something else shortly. Thanks for your patience lol.
 
  • Love
Reactions: TampaBayTableTennis
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
May 2017
280
432
1,381
As far as people who would be in the mix for GOAT of the modern era, I would say Ma Long, WLQ, ZJK and Waldner. Out of those, I would say Ma Long would be the best choice for GOAT. I dismiss head to heard arguments as if player A can beat player B but player A can beat 99 other players and player B can't, I am picking player A as the better player.
 
says Won 2, lost 1 in club training today. Revenge for the...
says Won 2, lost 1 in club training today. Revenge for the...
Member
Jun 2018
94
54
206
In my opinion, just like in other sports, context of era for specific candidates matter. Just like with basketball, volleyball, etc. If someone older would say Viktor Barna and just show me this :
Then without knowing what was different about rules, equipment, etc. I think many people WOULD agree he is the GOAT (Those are just when he represented Hungary, btw. , he has 10 more medals in World Championships alone when he began to represent England). Just like Bill Russell with basketball, who won 11 (ELEVEN) championships in 13 years compared to Michael Jordan's 6 in 8 years while in NBA.
Rules change, equipment change, playstyles change so matter of GOAT is difficult to say for sure. In Barna's time, Table Tennis was not a part of Olympics, for example which hurts his case since it was not either talked about or televised that much at the time.
Modern table tennis-wise (plastic ball era), I'd agree it is Ma Long. Earlier, in 38mm, then 40 mm balls, speed glue era...many different players could be chosen. For me, best in that era that I watched was Wang Liqin :)
 

Attachments

  • 1765457967094.png
    1765457967094.png
    89.2 KB · Views: 75
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Oct 2025
102
108
260
In my opinion, just like in other sports, context of era for specific candidates matter. Just like with basketball, volleyball, etc. If someone older would say Viktor Barna and just show me this :
Then without knowing what was different about rules, equipment, etc. I think many people WOULD agree he is the GOAT (Those are just when he represented Hungary, btw. , he has 10 more medals in World Championships alone when he began to represent England). Just like Bill Russell with basketball, who won 11 (ELEVEN) championships in 13 years compared to Michael Jordan's 6 in 8 years while in NBA.
Rules change, equipment change, playstyles change so matter of GOAT is difficult to say for sure. In Barna's time, Table Tennis was not a part of Olympics, for example which hurts his case since it was not either talked about or televised that much at the time.
Modern table tennis-wise (plastic ball era), I'd agree it is Ma Long. Earlier, in 38mm, then 40 mm balls, speed glue era...many different players could be chosen. For me, best in that era that I watched was Wang Liqin :)
I 80% disagree with the idea that you can't compare across eras. You can absolutely, within reason - it's the difference between the top athlete(s) and their peers. You can't control the level of your competition or the ruleset any more than you can control where you're born. I'd say the exception would be things like if your competition was only semi-professional, or if rule changes were so drastic the sport is no longer recognizable. Since basketball is brought up, a lot of early players were not full time professionals, hence greatness pre-merger tends to hold less weight, rightly so I would argue, maybe even pre-David Stern ("Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"). I would put that into a separate category; to consider Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain, they played a different type of basketball in the NBA than they did in the ABA, and that merger is kind of like the Boeing McDoug one. They kept the NBA name, but the style of play was mostly ABA.

Baseball pre-integration is kind of the same for me.

(Aside: there are players though that single handedly change the game by their uniqueness and force the landscape of the sport to shift with them. I used to think you can't be considered for the pantheon of basketball if you were not a two way player. Then Wardell showed up.)

Table tennis doesn't really have this problem, so if the assertion is that Ma Long was never that great with a celluloid ball, you cannot assume that players like Wang Hao would magically be the same with the plastic one. Another parallel with basketball - if hand checking never became legal, would players like Allen Iverson have the success they had? Would Jordan still be considered the GOAT if the illegal defense rule wasn't in place during his prime (though I argue this one is a bit overrated)? Probably, maybe, but in a different way right? You don't know for sure.

天时、地利、人和,三者不得,虽胜有殃。​

Everyone plays by the same set of rules (though certain athletes indeed seem to get preferential treatment), so you have to compare the cross-sections of the competition.
The psychological hurdle of Wang Hao: Wang Hao knew how to beat Ma Long at the WTTC events, doing so three times in a row (2009, 2011 and 2013). Is it a pure coincidence that Ma Long finally won a WTTC after Wang Hao retired? Now Wang Hao himself has a reasonable argument for the GOAT with an extended period of strong performance, though his argument for the GOAT doesn't survive transitive comparisons. However, his dominance of Ma Long in the WTTC Singles event will return when we look at some of the arguments that are used to criticize some of the other candidates for the GOAT title who had bad head-to-head records at events or throughout their career against certain opposition, as this is also a criticism of Fan Zhendong's candidacy and something that needs some nuance when applied to the candidacy of players like Zhang Jike.
You can't insert anyone into the GOAT conversation if they consistently tripped and fell at the highest level. This is akin to some fans talking about certain Silver medals being worth more than certain Gold medals. It's automatically disqualifying - and it's not like a team sport where you can ride the bench to a championship. Even if they are unarguably a better player than top athletes of other eras there was by definition someone better than them.

Such is the case of Lin Dan and Lee Chong-wei, which is that other 20%. If Lin didn't exist Lee would likely be a multi-time Olympic gold medalist. But Super Dan did exist, so Lee gets to play second fiddle.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Moderator
Oct 2014
19,971
26,530
70,870
Read 17 reviews
I 80% disagree with the idea that you can't compare across eras. You can absolutely, within reason - it's the difference between the top athlete(s) and their peers. You can't control the level of your competition or the ruleset any more than you can control where you're born. I'd say the exception would be things like if your competition was only semi-professional, or if rule changes were so drastic the sport is no longer recognizable. Since basketball is brought up, a lot of early players were not full time professionals, hence greatness pre-merger tends to hold less weight, rightly so I would argue, maybe even pre-David Stern ("Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"). I would put that into a separate category; to consider Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain, they played a different type of basketball in the NBA than they did in the ABA, and that merger is kind of like the Boeing McDoug one. They kept the NBA name, but the style of play was mostly ABA.

Baseball pre-integration is kind of the same for me.

(Aside: there are players though that single handedly change the game by their uniqueness and force the landscape of the sport to shift with them. I used to think you can't be considered for the pantheon of basketball if you were not a two way player. Then Wardell showed up.)

Table tennis doesn't really have this problem, so if the assertion is that Ma Long was never that great with a celluloid ball, you cannot assume that players like Wang Hao would magically be the same with the plastic one. Another parallel with basketball - if hand checking never became legal, would players like Allen Iverson have the success they had? Would Jordan still be considered the GOAT if the illegal defense rule wasn't in place during his prime (though I argue this one is a bit overrated)? Probably, maybe, but in a different way right? You don't know for sure.

天时、地利、人和,三者不得,虽胜有殃。​

Everyone plays by the same set of rules (though certain athletes indeed seem to get preferential treatment), so you have to compare the cross-sections of the competition.

You can't insert anyone into the GOAT conversation if they consistently tripped and fell at the highest level. This is akin to some fans talking about certain Silver medals being worth more than certain Gold medals. It's automatically disqualifying - and it's not like a team sport where you can ride the bench to a championship. Even if they are unarguably a better player than top athletes of other eras there was by definition someone better than them.

Such is the case of Lin Dan and Lee Chong-wei, which is that other 20%. If Lin didn't exist Lee would likely be a multi-time Olympic gold medalist. But Super Dan did exist, so Lee gets to play second fiddle.
I understand your point as a transitive but not as an absolute. I think multiple silver medals more than anyone else shows a level of performance consistency that might or might not be comparable to a higher peak depending on how it is weighted. Zhang Jike for example gets pushed down in the GOAT conversation for some because of a shorter peak while some players think that at his peak he was second to none. Likewise, I could see someone arguing that while Wang Hao didnt win Olympic Gold, his longevity across multiple Olympic games is not matched by anyone (who else has 3 singles medals you can think of). That said, these are fan debates and your position is not uncommon. But my take is that a player is in the mix if you can make an argument for them based on certain measures that you can apply to other people and then defend that player as being competitive. Even the eye test counts.

Arguing about comparing across eras is not disputing Amaken23 in any serious way. Of course you can compare anything you want after making up any rules you want to use to compare. It's really funny when people talk about how basketball athletes weren't as good in the 60s or 70s when two largely unrivalled athletic specimens of all time (Wilt Chamberlain and KAreem Abdul Jabbar) played in the 60s and 70s. In the end, feel free to make up your own rules and arguments, but they will always be shown to have limitations. And Amaken's point is that you can weight the limitations more heavily and your point is you can find ways to lighten the limitations. That' why were have these fan arguments.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Oct 2025
102
108
260
I understand your point as a transitive but not as an absolute. I think multiple silver medals more than anyone else shows a level of performance consistency that might or might not be comparable to a higher peak depending on how it is weighted. Zhang Jike for example gets pushed down in the GOAT conversation for some because of a shorter peak while some players think that at his peak he was second to none. Likewise, I could see someone arguing that while Wang Hao didnt win Olympic Gold, his longevity across multiple Olympic games is not matched by anyone (who else has 3 singles medals you can think of). That said, these are fan debates and your position is not uncommon. But my take is that a player is in the mix if you can make an argument for them based on certain measures that you can apply to other people and then defend that player as being competitive. Even the eye test counts.
In the mix means if you change a few bits around on the breakdown of what you value, they can conceivably rank higher than another contender. At the conclusion of Ma Long's career, there's nothing you can change around where you can put Wang Hao ahead of Ma Long.

It's a common position because it's the reasonable position for a competitive sport. In what world can a GOAT can be the best loser?

Let's be honest - table tennis is one of those sports that people only care about once every four years. Just like aquatics, weightlifting, track and field, etc. It will always be that way and there's nothing that can change about the sport that will make a difference. Entire competition and training cycles are organized around the quad. To make it to the very last step for three quads is greatness, full stop. Nobody can take that away from Wang Hao, just like nobody can take that away from Lee Chong-wei. It's just not Greatest of all Time great.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Moderator
Oct 2014
19,971
26,530
70,870
Read 17 reviews
In the mix means if you change a few bits around on the breakdown of what you value, they can conceivably rank higher than another contender. At the conclusion of Ma Long's career, there's nothing you can change around where you can put Wang Hao ahead of Ma Long.

It's a common position because it's the reasonable position for a competitive sport. In what world can a GOAT can be the best loser?

Let's be honest - table tennis is one of those sports that people only care about once every four years. Just like aquatics, weightlifting, track and field, etc. It will always be that way and there's nothing that can change about the sport that will make a difference. Entire competition and training cycles are organized around the quad. To make it to the very last step for three quads is greatness, full stop. Nobody can take that away from Wang Hao, just like nobody can take that away from Lee Chong-wei. It's just not Greatest of all Time great.
Their eras didn't perfectly overlap. Wang Hao qualified for 3 Olympic Singles, Ma Long two (yes, there are asterisks there but that is the issue with comparing eras). Wang Hao beat Ma Long in every WTTC match they ever played - maybe had he not retired, Ma Long would still be looking for WTTC singles titles lol. Wang Hao is actually a revolutionary player, he was arguably the first backhand oriented player to lead the Chinese national team. A narrow focus on some statistics might miss some of these subtleties.

Again, I can see why someone would not even consider Wang Hao using some the arguments you made. My point is that he can have his advocates. If one considers GOAT candidates the top 10 players of the modern era, Wang Hao can be placed in there for sure. It all depends on your criteria. Ma Long didn't win an Olympic or WWTC singles title until the plastic ball era. Just saying....
 
says Won 2, lost 1 in club training today. Revenge for the...
says Won 2, lost 1 in club training today. Revenge for the...
Member
Jun 2018
94
54
206
I 80% disagree with the idea that you can't compare across eras. You can absolutely, within reason - it's the difference between the top athlete(s) and their peers. You can't control the level of your competition or the ruleset any more than you can control where you're born. I'd say the exception would be things like if your competition was only semi-professional, or if rule changes were so drastic the sport is no longer recognizable.
Table tennis... IS unrecognizable, even compared to 90's, for example. Different amount of points each set, different amount of serves before changing, you could hide your serves which was a tactic on its own, different types of rubbers, glue, balls.... Hence my point of taking into account different eras. Not to mention playing style being different.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Oct 2025
102
108
260
I don't know who I consider the TT GOAT, I just don't watch enough TT. Ma Long has a cool name. But I think he would have eventually overcome WH, with or without the plastic change. It was always a mental block - ML likes to play from the lead. He'd get in his own head if he fell behind. When he made the leap was when he became comfortable winning 4-3 instead of 4-0. Again, I think you can compare against eras; when it was Ma Long's time, he didn't choke.

But if we're doing hypotheticals, if Zhang Jike didn't have spina bifida (and a gambling problem), I'm almost certain Ma Long would have been as dominant. Zhang might be a 2 time grand slam winner instead, they split a lot of the big tournaments, etc. Their H2H is pretty even but ZJK almost always had the best of ML in the big moments.

Their eras didn't perfectly overlap. Wang Hao qualified for 3 Olympic Singles, Ma Long two (yes, there are asterisks there but that is the issue with comparing eras). Wang Hao beat Ma Long in every WTTC match they ever played - maybe had he not retired, Ma Long would still be looking for WTTC singles titles lol. Wang Hao is actually a revolutionary player, he was arguably the first backhand oriented player to lead the Chinese national team. A narrow focus on some statistics might miss some of these subtleties.

Again, I can see why someone would not even consider Wang Hao using some the arguments you made. My point is that he can have his advocates. If one considers GOAT candidates the top 10 players of the modern era, Wang Hao can be placed in there for sure. It all depends on your criteria. Ma Long didn't win an Olympic or WWTC singles title until the plastic ball era. Just saying....
But just like how credible players have a claim to the throne, so do fan arguments. Someone over on r/NBA said Lily Zhang was the GOAT (under that hilarious Ant Edwards episode), and while they're certainly entitled to their opinion, how valid is that argument in anyone elses eyes? I guess in a way it's a sport in itself, governed by its own arbitrary rules.

Although I'm of the opinion Wang Hao is actually a bit underrated due to all the choking on the biggest stage. He's technically superior and a more modern player than Ma Lin, even though that didn't stop him losing the Gold. I still don't think any of the other players have surpassed his RPB even in 2025. But again I don't watch enough TT to know for sure.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
says Won 2, lost 1 in club training today. Revenge for the...
says Won 2, lost 1 in club training today. Revenge for the...
Member
Jun 2018
94
54
206
Same way I think that Wang Liqin which I mentioned aboive in my first post on this thread is underrated and even forgotten when talking about GOAT of table tennis. He IS the only player to win both the 11-point and 21-point system World Table Tennis Championship singles titles : 2001 (21-point era) and then again in 2005 and 2007 (11-point era). That in my opinion is AS big of adapting and dominating 2 different eras as anything.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Oct 2025
102
108
260
Table tennis... IS unrecognizable, even compared to 90's, for example. Different amount of points each set, different amount of serves before changing, you could hide your serves which was a tactic on its own, different types of rubbers, glue, balls.... Hence my point of taking into account different eras. Not to mention playing style being different.
If you watch a table tennis game from 1996, can you tell they're playing table tennis? Do they move the same, with largely similar equipment? In 2025, is spin still king? Minutiae of competitions change all the time. When you decide it's no longer the same competition is more of a Ship of Theseus type question. Maybe you could draw the line at the 21-11 set change. IDK. In volleyball you had side out serving. Did it make it a different game when they changed it to rally scoring? I would say no.

Because by that logic, you could also say you can't compare shakegrip vs cpen players, because they have different play styles no matter what era they're in, with their own advantages and disadvantages.

Likewise all sports are constantly evolving, be it rules, technology, and the development of play styles to best capture advantages with the evolving rules and technologies. Doesn't mean you can't compare across eras.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Moderator
Oct 2014
19,971
26,530
70,870
Read 17 reviews
If you watch a table tennis game from 1996, can you tell they're playing table tennis? Do they move the same, with largely similar equipment? In 2025, is spin still king? Minutiae of competitions change all the time. When you decide it's no longer the same competition is more of a Ship of Theseus type question. Maybe you could draw the line at the 21-11 set change. IDK. In volleyball you had side out serving. Did it make it a different game when they changed it to rally scoring? I would say no.

Because by that logic, you could also say you can't compare shakegrip vs cpen players, because they have different play styles no matter what era they're in, with their own advantages and disadvantages.

Likewise all sports are constantly evolving, be it rules, technology, and the development of play styles to best capture advantages with the evolving rules and technologies. Doesn't mean you can't compare across eras.
You both have valid points, the main point is that trying to compare across eras always involves assumptions that are often questionable. If a player like Liu Guoliang had to retire soon after the rule changes that hurt his weapons, it begs th question of what it means to be great bedroom and after the rule changes. Because a few players were at the top in both eras, it is treated somewhat seamlessly but it wasn't completely so. Then it becomes a choice and your subjective 80% comparable.mighr be 20% to someone else. That's the point. And I think it can go either way depending on one's mood to argue the question.
 
says Won 2, lost 1 in club training today. Revenge for the...
says Won 2, lost 1 in club training today. Revenge for the...
Member
Jun 2018
94
54
206
BYW, not sure if I have posted the stub but the next article is supposed to be "In defense of Lin Gaoyuan: Is losing big leads truly choking?"
Yes. As in any other sport :p If you are winning by 2-3 points, then sure, that would be a 'lesser' type of loss since it is close and 2 point lead in modern table tennis is not THAT much. Losing a set you were winning 10-7 or 10-8 would be probably attributed as momentary lapse of concentration, opponent finding one last spark, etc. But that 10-4 blown lead against Timo Boll...come on,man. Textbook choking.
 
says Won 2, lost 1 in club training today. Revenge for the...
says Won 2, lost 1 in club training today. Revenge for the...
Member
Jun 2018
94
54
206
If you watch a table tennis game from 1996, can you tell they're playing table tennis? Do they move the same, with largely similar equipment? In 2025, is spin still king? Minutiae of competitions change all the time. When you decide it's no longer the same competition is more of a Ship of Theseus type question. Maybe you could draw the line at the 21-11 set change. IDK. In volleyball you had side out serving. Did it make it a different game when they changed it to rally scoring? I would say no.

Because by that logic, you could also say you can't compare shakegrip vs cpen players, because they have different play styles no matter what era they're in, with their own advantages and disadvantages.

Likewise all sports are constantly evolving, be it rules, technology, and the development of play styles to best capture advantages with the evolving rules and technologies. Doesn't mean you can't compare across eras.
Just so we end this argument, thank you for the debate and showing me your point of view :)
 
Top