Reading Spin + Tactics

[NetProphet]

One last thing. Should I stick with d09c both sides when I can only loop with loop with quality in the drills?

No, you shouldn't.
It is just too hard of a sponge.
Pros don't miss in drills, like, they don't miss at all, ever.
There are countless hours of training vids where they pound the ball relentlessly over and over for minutes at a time without missing.
Unless you can do that you shouldn't use D09c.
For most of us our drill success, practice success etc is easily 4 times what we deliver in matches, so our match performance in this regard is probably a quarter of what is already a messy drill.
Personally I don't count any drill success rates unless they're based on random multiball, that's a real test because after everything else is accounted for our footwork is still there, just waiting for us, like a bastard and ready to screw everything up! 😂
Am open to correction on these numbers of course cos it's different for everyone but I'm generalising based on my training groups.
We need the rubber that helps us deliver quality when we're out of position, not fully prepared, slow to react etc etc and for us sub 2000 mortals that just isn't D09c.
My strong opinion only but I do feel a different rubber will work better for you in matches.

 

[Zezima]

No, you shouldn't.
It is just too hard of a sponge.
Pros don't miss in drills, like, they don't miss at all, ever.
There are countless hours of training vids where they pound the ball relentlessly over and over for minutes at a time without missing.
Unless you can do that you shouldn't use D09c.
For most of us our drill success, practice success etc is easily 4 times what we deliver in matches, so our match performance in this regard is probably a quarter of what is already a messy drill.
Personally I don't count any drill success rates unless they're based on random multiball, that's a real test because after everything else is accounted for our footwork is still there, just waiting for us, like a bastard and ready to screw everything up! 😂
Am open to correction on these numbers of course cos it's different for everyone but I'm generalising based on my training groups.
We need the rubber that helps us deliver quality when we're out of position, not fully prepared, slow to react etc etc and for us sub 2000 mortals that just isn't D09c.
My strong opinion only but I do feel a different rubber will work better for you in matches.

What would you suggest then?
In terms of blocking and when I feel warmed up I really like it. On the fh though I would want the same characteristics but something softer that activates earlier.

Bh I just refuse to change for now. Because no rubber will make my bh better if anything it will make it worse.

For the fh I tried a used g1 a little bit, didnt feel a big difference.

 

[NetProphet]

What would you suggest then?

G1 and G09c are good options but tbh, they way you are forensically trying to examine your FH without a coach I would recommend Rakza 7 or Rakza Z for 6 months.

In terms of blocking and when I feel warmed up I really like it. On the fh though I would want the same characteristics but something softer that activates earlier.

What characteristics specifically are you referring to?
I find it on for block but the D80 on my BH for example is a much better blocking rubber that D09c as I experience it.

Bh I just refuse to change for now. Because no rubber will make my bh better if anything it will make it worse.

I don't understand how D09c works for your BH.
I do imagine that it lacks spin and speed though. I've played D09c and compared to T19 and D80 it's far too difficult to generate spin and speed. Maybe your longer stroke allows it 🤷

For the fh I tried a used g1 a little bit, didnt feel a big difference.

Did your training partner feel any difference in spin generation?
Have you tried G1 in a match?

 

[dingyibvs]

I was tempted to post the video on the Myth of the Perfect Forehand on one of Zezima's threads. I will pst this from ZJJ instead. Note some things he says about it being too late and the dangers of changing effective technique.

Not sure how much that applies to @Zezima though. ZJK specifically qualified what he considers to be "effective" technique, which should result in good contact. He even demonstrated what he considers poor contact, a brushy shot that exactly represents what @Zezima was doing and the main thing that he wants to improve on.

No, you shouldn't.
It is just too hard of a sponge.
Pros don't miss in drills, like, they don't miss at all, ever.
There are countless hours of training vids where they pound the ball relentlessly over and over for minutes at a time without missing.
Unless you can do that you shouldn't use D09c.
For most of us our drill success, practice success etc is easily 4 times what we deliver in matches, so our match performance in this regard is probably a quarter of what is already a messy drill.
Personally I don't count any drill success rates unless they're based on random multiball, that's a real test because after everything else is accounted for our footwork is still there, just waiting for us, like a bastard and ready to screw everything up! 😂
Am open to correction on these numbers of course cos it's different for everyone but I'm generalising based on my training groups.
We need the rubber that helps us deliver quality when we're out of position, not fully prepared, slow to react etc etc and for us sub 2000 mortals that just isn't D09c.
My strong opinion only but I do feel a different rubber will work better for you in matches.

That's assuming he misses significantly less or creates more quality with other, softer rubbers though. The other issue is whether his stroke can activate the blade. Sometimes that's the limiting factor. I've never tried Korbel Japan so I don't know how easy that blade activates, but his other blade, the W968 is not a terribly easy one to activate. Even D09c is not a great fit for it because despite how hard D09c is, it actually starts to activate earlier than the blade.

 

[Zezima]

G1 and G09c are good options but tbh, they way you are forensically trying to examine your FH without a coach I would recommend Rakza 7 or Rakza Z for 6 months.

What characteristics specifically are you referring to?
I find it on for block but the D80 on my BH for example is a much better blocking rubber that D09c as I experience it.

I don't understand how D09c works for your BH.
I do imagine that it lacks spin and speed though. I've played D09c and compared to T19 and D80 it's far too difficult to generate spin and speed. Maybe your longer stroke allows it 🤷

Did your training partner feel any difference in spin generation?
Have you tried G1 in a match?

Tbh G09c feels as hard as d09c there is not much difference. I feel like g09c is slower but not "softer" or easier to activate. G1 is a bit easier to activate but still very hard feeling.

I had d80 on my bh on this korbel even. I didn't like it. I can see it being easier to play when out of position since it gives you extra catapult but it scares me when going for an active stroke because I keep thinking it will fly out. Def not a replacement to my d09c. I don't know why you think its too difficult to generate spin and speed. Even with shorter strokes it works.

Yes I played my first season in LL with G1 and R7 Rubbers. That was until 2 years ago. I remember it felt like a huge upgrade going from R7 to D09c on my bh. 0 Upgrade on the fh department I have to admit (from g1 to d09c) but going softer than that makes theoretically no sense especially when I am working on my fh now.

 

[Zezima]

Not sure how much that applies to @Zezima though. ZJK specifically qualified what he considers to be "effective" technique, which should result in good contact. He even demonstrated what he considers poor contact, a brushy shot that exactly represents what @Zezima was doing and the main thing that he wants to improve on.


That's assuming he misses significantly less or creates more quality with other, softer rubbers though. The other issue is whether his stroke can activate the blade. Sometimes that's the limiting factor. I've never tried Korbel Japan so I don't know how easy that blade activates, but his other blade, the W968 is not a terribly easy one to activate. Even D09c is not a great fit for it because despite how hard D09c is, it actually starts to activate earlier than the blade.

Yeah I am too old to waste my time on the perfect technique that might not even exist for me even. Even if it does how often do you get that perfect ball stand perfect and have time etc. I agree with the video that the contact is the most important.
Watched the game from FZD against gauzy he played shots that looked so terrible form wise. No matter what others say that he was still using hips (he wasn't) or other explanation it was just bad but the best form he could go for that situation with the lack of time he had.

The topic here was about going softer is if I am not in position but still want to do an active stroke which rubber would be easier to get a good sponge activation. I personally felt like as long as you don't go softer like <45° it doesn't seem to matter. And if I watch my game I seem to drive (with a hard placement if I have the time to atleast think about the placement) block or push. All the things I don't really benefit from a much softer rubber and then give up that quality when I do actually stand right. Doesn't seem to be worth it.

I have to admit that with my previous setup be it with long 5 or W968 I didn't really know how a good contact felt. The ball would land and thats how I would get my feedback. There wasn't much different feeling between a good a really good and a bad stroke. Which is why I stick with Korbel for now.

Right now on serve receive vs long balls since I don't want to powerloop and make an instant mistake that I am either putting too low racket speed or too much. The balance is not there yet when I am very nervous. Usually the more I can't read the long sidespin serve the more I get tensed up. And if I don't find that right speed balance into the sponge it gets very uncontrolled. And then even though my racket speed was not high because I didnt brush hit the ball right it just drives long (no or not enough topspin to make it curve back down).

Also the longer I play with d09c the better it gets feeling wise. But this is problematic once I change the rubbers. It feels very different and I struggle for the next 3 weeks or so. I actually once regretted changing my 8months old d09c because I was playing much better with that old sheet than with the brand new one. Maybe that kind of rubber exists the softer version otherwise I will just use the rubber longer and swap it out to a new sheet much earlier going into the season.

 

[NetProphet]

Tbh G09c feels as hard as d09c there is not much difference. I feel like g09c is slower but not "softer" or easier to activate. G1 is a bit easier to activate but still very hard feeling.

I had d80 on my bh on this korbel even. I didn't like it. I can see it being easier to play when out of position since it gives you extra catapult but it scares me when going for an active stroke because I keep thinking it will fly out. Def not a replacement to my d09c. I don't know why you think its too difficult to generate spin and speed. Even with shorter strokes it works.

Yes I played my first season in LL with G1 and R7 Rubbers. That was until 2 years ago. I remember it felt like a huge upgrade going from R7 to D09c on my bh. 0 Upgrade on the fh department I have to admit (from g1 to d09c) but going softer than that makes theoretically no sense especially when I am working on my fh now.

That's what I'm getting at, you are working on your FH now. After years, and moving from Rakza to G1 to Dignics 09c you are now doing the analysis on your FH and trying to fix it.
And in the middle of all of the many fixes (believe me I know because our journeys are not that different!) you are adding the complication of changing equipment into the mix.
I would be absolutely astonished if a good coach didn't tell you to stop changing equipment and to pick something medium fast that's easier to control so you could reconstruct your FH literally from the ground up.

Picking the hardest unboosted rubber you can find for your FH experiment just doesn't make sense in my world and the decision to use it on BH seems even more strange. If you feel you can't control D80 on BH then the D09c is likely masking weaknesses there by virtue of the fact that it's so hard it feels dead and slow but your current technique isn't getting maximum reward from the rubber at all 🤷

 

[MORTtheORT]

This is a long video since we played 2 matches in a row. 1-3 and 2-3 (we didn't change sides in the last set because I thought I am 2-1 up and he didn't want to disturb me because I was focused on serving)

Anyway win or lose doesn't matter here.

He pressured me hard with his serves even though they were 99% long serves. I just can't read his backspin and topspin serves maybe he was even doing no spin ones aswell. The short no spin serves I had no problems with.

It just annoyed me that even though more than half of the times I was attacking the serve somehow by guessing the spin on the ball and praying that I am somewhat overwriting the spin on the ball to bring it okeish on the table.
It's also crazy to me that I can't read his serves because it's a backhand serve so I should be able to know what spin is on the ball (I feel like it's easier to disguise the spin with the fh pendulum serves)
And the fact he served it long and made me guess (my chances being 1/3 to guess is right) meant he was ahead just by serves 2/3 of the time.
The sets I won were mostly due to me guessing the spin right.
31:37 is a good example. Even in slowmo I don't understand why this ball doesn't go over. It looks like its just sidespin on the ball.
The fact I can't even guess the spin right when looking frame by frame makes it really annoying to get better at this aspect. I struggle a lot when people serve with open racket face and can serve backspin and topspin too. Maybe there is a good video about explaining these type of serves. Because the obvious once are when the elbow goes up or racket chops below after contact..

I also feel like my distance to the table during game is just wrong even though I seem to be doing the right stroke sometimes like here:

Good backhand topspin receive in my book. Then he takes it super early close to the white line. And I just don't realize that this ball will come shorter back? Usually when I topspin I should be doublejumping backwards a bit and then play from half distance only moving sideways and maybe just a tiny bit double jump again.
How can I get better at this? Is stuff like this just knowledge that I should memorize (eg. I loop long to the white line and they block at the rising phase that I have to already move forwards? How can I aquire this skill of knowing where I need to move instead of brainlesly playing and doing the same positional mistakes?

I could go on and go on but it would get too confusing talking about 100 different mistakes I am doing in this match. So let's focus only on the most important ones and maybe easiest to fix (and how to).

I also don't know his rating he comes from germany to train here very rarely but I would assume he is around 1700. He can fh smash fh spinny loop fh sidespin loop, bh chop (in a way like truls changing pace and spin short/long) and a very good serve (everyone else also struggles with his serves).

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself about the returning the serve in this one. Literally ever serve is a fault.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself about the returning the serve in this one. Literally ever serve is a fault.

That guy's serve routine is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen but the serves themselves are bad and the toss probably isn't giving him any advantage. If a guy serves everything long top spin to the same two spots for an entire match you have to be able to actively receive it.

 

[MORTtheORT]

That guy's serve routine is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen but the serves themselves are bad and the toss probably isn't giving him any advantage. If a guy serves everything long top spin to the same two spots for an entire match you have to be able to actively receive it.

Yeah, definitely not a fan of this type of thing. This player would be faulted out of the game at any decent level competition. The routine is all just to create stress on players still learning. I really don't like this stuff as it just kills the confidence for the player trying to learn.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Yeah, definitely not a fan of this type of thing. This player would be faulted out of the game at any decent level competition. The routine is all just to create stress on players still learning. I really don't like this stuff as it just kills the confidence for the player trying to learn.

He probably wouldn't be faulted out of any decent level competition lol. I wouldn't assume that it is that malicious...definitely goofy though

 

[MORTtheORT]

He probably wouldn't be faulted out of any decent level competition lol. I wouldn't assume that it is that malicious...definitely goofy though

He will be faulted by any qualified ref and high-level players are not going to tolerate a serve that starts with the ball below the table and then never has a stationary moment. The bad ball toss and the attempted spin on the ball people can get away with, but the never-stationary part is not going to happen. You can get away with this at low-level matches where other players play the role of the ref, and players are too nice (not sure) to pull it up, but proper, qualified refs and players are not going to accept that.

Creating a distraction in your service game is not malicious; it is a key part of the game. Doing a clearly illegal serve in a training session, in almost every serve with a player who is not at your level, is questionable. We train to get better, not to win a training session. I can fully understand why he was frustrated with not being able to read the spin on the serve.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

31:37 service is long. tbh im not even sure what spin is on the ball, probably not a lot of it, maybe slightly backspin.

I think you're standing at the right distance to receive the serve. now the problem is you should grip more the ball to give YOUR spin, then it wouldn't much matter what exactly the incoming spin is.

to manage to do this you have to have good contact with the ball and accelerate at impact, not decelerate. so it will help actually to have a short stroke to be more precise and not a big one.

also you are totally flat footed. you try to give spin with your arm speed only. what will help you generate spin on every BH is to use the power of your legs. you have to feel you are squatting and try to be on your toes and knees forward. yes not easy to keep balance at the beginning but thats how you generate power. If you manage to do that you will increase spin by 30%-50% even with a shorter swing.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

He will be faulted by any qualified ref and high-level players are not going to tolerate a serve that starts with the ball below the table and then never has a stationary moment. The bad ball toss and the attempted spin on the ball people can get away with, but the never-stationary part is not going to happen. You can get away with this at low-level matches where other players play the role of the ref, and players are too nice (not sure) to pull it up, but proper, qualified refs and players are not going to accept that.

Creating a distraction in your service game is not malicious; it is a key part of the game. Doing a clearly illegal serve in a training session, in almost every serve with a player who is not at your level, is questionable. We train to get better, not to win a training session.

There are high level players from the world class level down to the national levels who serve extremely illegally, who play in tournaments refereed by qualified referee. And yet they've been serving highly illegally for years and get away with it most of the time. That is my point. It sounds nice in theory, just not how it happens in reality.

 

[MORTtheORT]

There are high level players from the world class level down to the national levels who serve extremely illegally, who play in tournaments refereed by qualified referee. And yet they've been serving highly illegally for years and get away with it most of the time. That is my point. It sounds nice in theory, just not how it happens in reality.

Yeah, they are still having a stationary moment in the serve process. Hiding the ball, ball toss height, spin on the ball, closed hand, etc., yeah, we all see this. But below the table to toss without being stationary, next level.

And as I said, this would be very difficult for the OP to read the serve, so don't be so hard on himself.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Yeah, they are still having a stationary moment in the serve process. Hiding the ball, ball toss height, spin on the ball, closed hand, etc., yeah, we all see this. But below the table to toss without being stationary, next level.

And as I said, this would be very difficult for the OP to read the serve, so don't be so hard on himself.

Emmanuel Lebesson.

 

[dingyibvs]

31:37 service is long. tbh im not even sure what spin is on the ball, probably not a lot of it, maybe slightly backspin.

I think you're standing at the right distance to receive the serve. now the problem is you should grip more the ball to give YOUR spin, then it wouldn't much matter what exactly the incoming spin is.

to manage to do this you have to have good contact with the ball and accelerate at impact, not decelerate. so it will help actually to have a short stroke to be more precise and not a big one.

also you are totally flat footed. you try to give spin with your arm speed only. what will help you generate spin on every BH is to use the power of your legs. you have to feel you are squatting and try to be on your toes and knees forward. yes not easy to keep balance at the beginning but thats how you generate power. If you manage to do that you will increase spin by 30%-50% even with a shorter swing.

Basically what I think as well. It's not particularly spinny or fast, and there isn't that much variation. The key issue is technique, not spin reading. It's a bit deep and has sidespin, things that tend to make a BH shot somewhat uncomfortable. One way to tell whether it's a technique issue in my experience is to try to receive with your stronger side. Being a more FH oriented player, both for pushes and loops, if I find that I have no issue returning a ball with quality with my FH but not the BH, then I know it's technique issue and not a read issue.

 

[MORTtheORT]

Emmanuel Lebesson.

He starts his motion with his hand stationary above the table.....and has had problems throughout his career with his serve being called fault.....

 

[blahness]

31:37 service is long. tbh im not even sure what spin is on the ball, probably not a lot of it, maybe slightly backspin.

I think you're standing at the right distance to receive the serve. now the problem is you should grip more the ball to give YOUR spin, then it wouldn't much matter what exactly the incoming spin is.

to manage to do this you have to have good contact with the ball and accelerate at impact, not decelerate. so it will help actually to have a short stroke to be more precise and not a big one.

also you are totally flat footed. you try to give spin with your arm speed only. what will help you generate spin on every BH is to use the power of your legs. you have to feel you are squatting and try to be on your toes and knees forward. yes not easy to keep balance at the beginning but thats how you generate power. If you manage to do that you will increase spin by 30%-50% even with a shorter swing.

+1

31:37 is for sure fast long sidebackspin. You dont need huge amounts of sidebackspin for fast long, just sufficient to be significantly different from the fast long sidetopspin variant.

Tbh I also use this serve very often (fast long sidebackspin to deep BH), es this is a serve that will destroy ppl with BH strokes that are too big and dont have a solid pivot FH. Reasons are:

1) serve is too fast and penetrating for them to have time to take a backswing. It is also very hard to move backwards and hit the ball forward.

2) they cannot do a passive stroke and return it with topspin (since the serve is still sidebackspin)

3) if they retreat from the table then they have to receive short serves late with reduced quality. Esp with short sidetopspin or no spin which really destroys ppl who have to move forward a lot for the receive.

4) if they bump it back or push it back or chop it back, it will be a slow weak sidebackspin ball (which I already know the spin) and I get a very strong attack opportunity.

The way to deal with it is either:

1) pivot FH loop - probably the strongest receive but it requires good footwork and anticipation.

2) have a "no backswing" BH loop and borrow the incoming speed - only focus is on creating spin. What i do is to move swiftly with the legs to intercept the ball with my racket, then use fingers to rotate the ball with heavy topspin. No backswing because there is just no time for a backswing, the incoming ball is too jamming.

edit: Attempting a BH powerloop/loopkill directly off a quality fast long serve is basically a mistake. First off there is just no time for backswing so the quality wont be great. Secondly, against a good server there is just too much uncertainty in the spin and placement so attempting powerloops will increase receive mistakes. Thirdly, even if you land one, because you hit it in a suboptimal position and the server is already waiting for you, most likely it would be blocked/countered back even faster and land yourself in a worse position. BH powerloop/loopkill receive really should be reserved for slow serves that drift long, not fast long. Against fast long, borrowing incoming speed to return a stable, spinny opening loop will already present a lot of problems for the server.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

That's what I'm getting at, you are working on your FH now. After years, and moving from Rakza to G1 to Dignics 09c you are now doing the analysis on your FH and trying to fix it.
And in the middle of all of the many fixes (believe me I know because our journeys are not that different!) you are adding the complication of changing equipment into the mix.
I would be absolutely astonished if a good coach didn't tell you to stop changing equipment and to pick something medium fast that's easier to control so you could reconstruct your FH literally from the ground up.

Picking the hardest unboosted rubber you can find for your FH experiment just doesn't make sense in my world and the decision to use it on BH seems even more strange. If you feel you can't control D80 on BH then the D09c is likely masking weaknesses there by virtue of the fact that it's so hard it feels dead and slow but your current technique isn't getting maximum reward from the rubber at all 🤷

I have mentioned before that Zezima using hard tacky unreactive rubbers on a blade like W968 makes no sense because
1) he doesn't have a lot of arm speed or acceleration even on his topspin shots
2) he often takes the ball when it has dropped a lot already
3) he "taps" the ball on most of his shots and therefore hits the ball softly and without strong impact

but it is his choice.

The struggles with the backhand receive on the long serve are partially reading but mostly technical - Zezima is trying to use so much wrist on long balls (more than is necessary) which makes it harder to consistently get the racket position where it needs to be at the time of contact. On the fast serves the wrist backswing is causing the timing issues - by the time he is snapping his wrist forward it is already too late. 1:45 is a good example.