Overall Technique focus

[ThePongCommenter]

move your hitting zone more to the front



Your hitting zone is very far back.
Learn to hit forehands ahead of your face.



This is some stupid "all lives matter" type of thinking. (i forgot you're not from the U.S. , whatever i'll leave this in)

We all know both are important.
You are just obviously ignoring the peak timing.

EDIT:
You probably hit more late because you just suck at hitting peak.
I know plenty of people who hit more peak because they suck at hitting late.

You might improve at peak timing.
Who knows if you will be hitting more late than peak after your improvement?

The other big reason to practice early/peak timing is because in games you will always be a little slower and later than in practice situations. This is true for everybody of every level. So if you practice earlier, during games you can still adapt and get shots on the table while being relatively late but not too late, whereas, if you always practice late, then in games when timing gets even slower, you will be in the "too late" range.

 

[dingyibvs]

This was my observation aswell. But shouldn't I be able to do both? In matches I will be hitting more late than at peak even though I should aim for peak timing.

Would you say my position is right or do I need to be closer to the table when hitting at peak timing?

I agree, you should be able to hit at all timings. Later timing is a bit easier so that's a good place to start actually. My coach makes me wait for the ball to fall a bit in practices against backspin as I tend to take it early, it's a good timing to practice your fundamentals, but of course you'd need to be able to do all timings in game situations. As you move forward in timing, your backswing needs to be smaller.

I think the main thing you can improve on for your FH loop is to put more energy forward. That goes for both your hip/leg movement as well as your arm movement. It doesn't seem obvious in your FH loop vs topspin because you can borrow more of the incoming ball's momentum, but against backspin it becomes painfully obvious. As you start facing faster blocks or when you want to counter loop (at least the initial one before you back off the table) going forward more becomes essential as well.

As for the BH loop vs backspin, not sure what you saw re: the elbow positioning. It looks fine to me. If you have time, you should lead with the elbow, and since your practices in the video were at a later timing, you have the time to execute it. Maybe you were watching videos of others looping at an earlier timing. In this FZD video for example, you can see him looping at a late timing, and he's leading with the elbow before fixing it and exploding forward with the forearm/wrist.

 

[Zezima]

The whole drill in the first video is misconceived. It is arguably a good start for a beginner, but for match play, it is rubbish and dangerous for an advanced player. In matches, practical considerations dictate that the footwork movement and the backswing need to be combined or one will always be pressed for time. Jumping into place. And then setting up the whole stroke is not what happens in matches or high level play, and you are a good enough player that you should not be practicing stuff that is going to hurt you in matches unless you are just developing new skills from scratch. When moving towards the forehand for a backspin ball, the jump needs to be made into the lunge backswing. When moving for a topspin ball, it depends on how early you need to take and cutoff the ball, you still lunge into a backswing but the ball speed and the need to cut it off often means most of backswing is in the upper body and extremely small and you need to follow through more than backswing to borrow power from the incoming shot and produce the power on the shot you make.

On the shot technique, as long as you are happy with the shot, that is what matters. I don't see the shots producing confident results in matches but T19 is a pretty spinny rubber, it probably allows one to get a way with much more with less effort, though I suspect it will not be as effective vs very good players. So you have to practice more variation in timing attacking the ball. Half long practice to train forearm use and precision on the forehand is far more important that all this stuff.

How on earth is FH TS from FH corner then looping again from Middle a bad drill? Or you mean it's too slow?
I am practising opening my racket angle and not changing my racket angle. If I go any faster I will default to my old technique.

I also didn't understand what else you were trying to say even after reading it twice.

 

[Zezima]

When I told you that this was the only proper way to play a backhand topspin with confidence, you were trying to talk about how my approach to table tennis was close minded and that Dima's technique was too big etc.. So I left you to your own devices. Fortunately for you, you are not as stubborn as your attitude sometimes conveys.

I still stick to my point. As I have seen now there are multiple ways unlike what you said how dima loops is the only way.

Hell I just learned how the elbow acts at different timings. Again technique is just a framework. I am happy if I can produce a good shot with my technique and if its consistent aswell idc if it looks like dimas or someone elses bh loop.

 

[Zezima]

move your hitting zone more to the front
View attachment 40524
View attachment 40523

Your hitting zone is very far back.
Learn to hit forehands ahead of your face.



This is some stupid "all lives matter" type of thinking. (i forgot you're not from the U.S. , whatever i'll leave this in)

We all know both are important.
You are just obviously ignoring the peak timing.

EDIT:
You probably hit more late because you just suck at hitting peak.
I know plenty of people who hit more peak because they suck at hitting late.

You might improve at peak timing.
Who knows if you will be hitting more late than peak after your improvement?

Would have been nice to timestamp the video from FZD so I can rewatch it. But I know that video anyway.

so this is against backspin I assume. I don't know it looks like if I would loop more in the front my ball would land more in the net. I am also very conflicted about this. I will have to watch my games from today aswell. I just feel like at my current level taking the ball as late as possible and spinning it up just nets me too many points. But I also see that eventually maybe around 1800+ this will stop working idk. I am not there yet.

I wouldn't say I suck at hitting peak. It's more like I like watching the ball longer and feel more confident in hitting it. But thats also because I am not training hitting it at peak. But this is something I got told in germany TT camp 3months ago aswell. Usually if the trainer say that and next Ball exchange I hit it at peak. Otherwise I default/autopilot at later timing. It also mentally stresses me out hitting at peak because I need to be ready for the block ball. But thats a skill issue. Later timings give me enough time to recover for the next ball if in case it gets blocked back -> no stress for me.

I will be trying to practise peak timing more since I am kind of autopilot on hitting through the sponge (finally) so I have atleast one less thing to think about and can use that to think about peak timing instead.

 

[Zezima]

I agree, you should be able to hit at all timings. Later timing is a bit easier so that's a good place to start actually. My coach makes me wait for the ball to fall a bit in practices against backspin as I tend to take it early, it's a good timing to practice your fundamentals, but of course you'd need to be able to do all timings in game situations. As you move forward in timing, your backswing needs to be smaller.

I think the main thing you can improve on for your FH loop is to put more energy forward. That goes for both your hip/leg movement as well as your arm movement. It doesn't seem obvious in your FH loop vs topspin because you can borrow more of the incoming ball's momentum, but against backspin it becomes painfully obvious. As you start facing faster blocks or when you want to counter loop (at least the initial one before you back off the table) going forward more becomes essential as well.

As for the BH loop vs backspin, not sure what you saw re: the elbow positioning. It looks fine to me. If you have time, you should lead with the elbow, and since your practices in the video were at a later timing, you have the time to execute it. Maybe you were watching videos of others looping at an earlier timing. In this FZD video for example, you can see him looping at a late timing, and he's leading with the elbow before fixing it and exploding forward with the forearm/wrist.

I do think it feels more comfortable but the trainer back then said it's more inconsistent if you wanna put more umph in my shots. Then peak timing is most consistent. But if I just want to hit a "slower spinnier ball" then yeah I can go later timing.

I am working on my backswing. Right now my arm is sometimes too much behind my body. But here in these drills with the fh against block/ts it looks good now. I am not taking my arm far back anymore.


With the bh loop you are right. I saw some other chinese player who lead with the elbow saw another one with zhang jike who had elbow behind teaching a kid. So I got confused there about which one is right and which one is wrong. Since I felt like I could generate more power with elbow in front. The Problem though is my swingpath gets less stable because of that forearm whip on top of wrist whip. 2 Body parts whipping when the contact has to be precise.. Maybe I should get it right without leading with the elbow first. Once that is more consistent I can start leading with my elbow. What do you think?

Also I am soo fkin happy after todays league games. I used my backhand loop much more than ever. I even had some really good fh topspins whipping through. I mean probably the number is still below 10 but as long as I am increasing the number I am quite happy.

I didn't analyze my games yet since I just came home and will do it tomorrow but I feel like after today I am confident in saying that the change to T19 both sides was actually the right play. I definetly got more courage to loop both sides. I am just happy even though I lost one game because I can finally see improvement in my game. That's more important to me.

 

[RefereeNumber2]

Others have made good comments and suggestions. IMO at this point you don’t need to worry so much about minutiae of your swing from your shoulder and down. If I were coaching you, I'd try to get you to focus much more on your lower body and core, to find the feeling of being light on your feet, relaxed, and explosive. You already have an understanding of how contact and spin work. If your feet are moving well, your body is aligned and your weight is well-distributed, the swing will follow more-or-less naturally.

One of the biggest mental blocks many players have at your stage is that they feel like they need to actively engage their arm and hand in order to direct the swing. This might be your problem, too. In reality, there's a natural swing path that is determined by your body positioning and weight distribution. Try to find the feeling of controlling and directing your swing using your body movement. Once you have that feeling, you can add forearm/wrist/hand force to accelerate along your natural swing. If your hand/arm movement is misaligned/disconnected from your body’s movement (as it appears in these videos), your stroke will be inefficient and it will be hard to generate power.

Focusing on driving your swing with your body will probably also help you with your late timing, because -- perhaps counterintuitively -- your body can move faster than your arm. It also naturally goes along with better footwork and movement, because you will find you need to move if you are going to get your body aligned correctly.

 

[NextLevel]

I still stick to my point. As I have seen now there are multiple ways unlike what you said how dima loops is the only way.

Hell I just learned how the elbow acts at different timings. Again technique is just a framework. I am happy if I can produce a good shot with my technique and if its consistent aswell idc if it looks like dimas or someone elses bh loop.

Not all the ways are equally good. That's the point of technique. When you need to hit a powerful backhand, everyone is doing something like what Dima does.

 

[NextLevel]

How on earth is FH TS from FH corner then looping again from Middle a bad drill? Or you mean it's too slow?
I am practising opening my racket angle and not changing my racket angle. If I go any faster I will default to my old technique.

I also didn't understand what else you were trying to say even after reading it twice.

You can't move and get into position then do your baxkswing and stroke. You need to get your feet set into the backswing while moving and end up prepared to do your stroke. The way you are doing it is wrong, the speed of the feed is making it workable but it will not work in a real match because the footwork is too slow to work in a real match. So do the right thing and set up your stroke while moving so you don't feel weird in matches.

The video is long but even when there is no ball he doesnt juat move there and start the stroke. He moves in a way that is prepared to hit the ball as he gets there. So the swing backswing and preparation is done while moving.

 

[MORTtheORT]

every forehand is late.
every loop against backspin is late.

try doing it without letting the ball fall down a few centimeters (falling down a few millimeters is fine).

Thought the exact same. The FH shots look very spin focused from letting the ball drop. For me he is tall and should be using this to drive his opponent back from the table.

Could he be late because he is a bit stiff so his racket speed coming through is a bit slow and inconsistent? I think just being a bit more relaxed would help.

 

[MORTtheORT]

Thes

move your hitting zone more to the front
View attachment 40524
View attachment 40523

Your hitting zone is very far back.
Learn to hit forehands ahead of your face.



This is some stupid "all lives matter" type of thinking. (i forgot you're not from the U.S. , whatever i'll leave this in)

We all know both are important.
You are just obviously ignoring the peak timing.

EDIT:
You probably hit more late because you just suck at hitting peak.
I know plenty of people who hit more peak because they suck at hitting late.

You might improve at peak timing.
Who knows if you will be hitting more late than peak after your improvement?

This pictures is exactly what I have been seeing. You have this habit of going backwards in your game. This is why I suggested the jumping forward drill as it is near impossible if your body is leaning backwards. This backwards motion takes all the aggression out of your game and puts you in he back foot. Personally I think this habit has been created from the hard rubbers you have been using taking confidence out of your game.

Try dominating the table with the objective of forcing your opponent back. You will have to accept errors at the start but it will help in the long run. And you just have to accept that good balls will get past you and that is just a good shot so move on from it and get back on top of your opponent.

Might interest you. On Tuesday night for my season games I played against a very tall player (high rating player). It was a contest of who could control the table. If I forced him back, the point was mine, if he forced me back, the point was his. We both resorted to long dipping serves trying to drive each other back as our height difference made it clear that the person at the table had the advantage.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I am confident in saying that the change to T19 both sides was actually the right play. I definetly got more courage to loop both sides. I am just happy even though I lost one game because I can finally see improvement in my game. That's more important to me.

Damn and I suggested that over a year ago the first time looking at one of your threads. Makes you think...

 

[MORTtheORT]

Another thing I would note is this slow feeding style drill. I wouldn't do it. You are crabbing to the spot where you know the ball is going to go. Arms still up Infront of you, then starting your backstroke etc. your arm, body and legs are disconnected in your movement making you stiff and robotic. This type of training will forever have you late and hitting the ball late. This is pure waiting to response to your opponent habit creating. Table tennis is a game of intent. You need to force the ball into the zones you want and move in anticipation. Play the percentages.

Personally I would never move with my arms held out in front of me unless I am moving back to a neutral position, not to the ball.....moving to my FH, when my foot lands, my arm is back, shoulders forward but rotated, legs loaded with energy so I have all the time in the world to play a higher quality shot. BH side I move and have my blade back waiting for the ball to come into my contact zone....if your opponent is good enough to play against the spin etc of the game (play a higher risk shot) well good on them, a good shot is a good shot....but these shots get harder and harder for your opponent if you are able to hit with power and quality.

 

[MORTtheORT]

The whole drill in the first video is misconceived. It is arguably a good start for a beginner, but for match play, it is rubbish and dangerous for an advanced player. In matches, practical considerations dictate that the footwork movement and the backswing need to be combined or one will always be pressed for time. Jumping into place. And then setting up the whole stroke is not what happens in matches or high level play, and you are a good enough player that you should not be practicing stuff that is going to hurt you in matches unless you are just developing new skills from scratch. When moving towards the forehand for a backspin ball, the jump needs to be made into the lunge backswing. When moving for a topspin ball, it depends on how early you need to take and cutoff the ball, you still lunge into a backswing but the ball speed and the need to cut it off often means most of backswing is in the upper body and extremely small and you need to follow through more than backswing to borrow power from the incoming shot and produce the power on the shot you make.

On the shot technique, as long as you are happy with the shot, that is what matters. I don't see the shots producing confident results in matches but T19 is a pretty spinny rubber, it probably allows one to get a way with much more with less effort, though I suspect it will not be as effective vs very good players. So you have to practice more variation in timing attacking the ball. Half long practice to train forearm use and precision on the forehand is far more important that all this stuff.

This first drill is training bad habits with this robotic crab into position movement. As pointed out, you must arrive in position to play your shot. It will give you more time to impact the ball correctly. This is your moment in the game to dictate the timing/speed of the game.

 

[Zezima]

Others have made good comments and suggestions. IMO at this point you don’t need to worry so much about minutiae of your swing from your shoulder and down. If I were coaching you, I'd try to get you to focus much more on your lower body and core, to find the feeling of being light on your feet, relaxed, and explosive. You already have an understanding of how contact and spin work. If your feet are moving well, your body is aligned and your weight is well-distributed, the swing will follow more-or-less naturally.

One of the biggest mental blocks many players have at your stage is that they feel like they need to actively engage their arm and hand in order to direct the swing. This might be your problem, too. In reality, there's a natural swing path that is determined by your body positioning and weight distribution. Try to find the feeling of controlling and directing your swing using your body movement. Once you have that feeling, you can add forearm/wrist/hand force to accelerate along your natural swing. If your hand/arm movement is misaligned/disconnected from your body’s movement (as it appears in these videos), your stroke will be inefficient and it will be hard to generate power.

Focusing on driving your swing with your body will probably also help you with your late timing, because -- perhaps counterintuitively -- your body can move faster than your arm. It also naturally goes along with better footwork and movement, because you will find you need to move if you are going to get your body aligned correctly.

Yes good point. I think I need to do this with a roboter. Right now my arm controls the swingpath racket angle and swing speed too much. Its made up by me/ upper body. Legs are mainly there to make my hips rotate thats it.

I see WCQ and even these chinese players drawing a natural circle when hitting the ball. But I don't know why I can't make it work for me.

You can't move and get into position then do your baxkswing and stroke. You need to get your feet set into the backswing while moving and end up prepared to do your stroke. The way you are doing it is wrong, the speed of the feed is making it workable but it will not work in a real match because the footwork is too slow to work in a real match. So do the right thing and set up your stroke while moving so you don't feel weird in matches.

The video is long but even when there is no ball he doesnt juat move there and start the stroke. He moves in a way that is prepared to hit the ball as he gets there. So the swing backswing and preparation is done while moving.

Okey I just snooped in and see what you mean. Yeah my goal only to not rush into bad habits. I don't know how a coach would train with me to get the old technique out of my system when rushed. Currently I am praying that by repetition I will eventually start doing it more and more.

Right now the biggest problem I have to overcome with the fh trchnique is whenever I want to hit "winner" my brain automatically closes the racket angle a lot. So the more forwards I decide to hit the more the racket angle gets closed.

And if I hit the bet or stilll hit out I slow down and voila you get this technique I have with the closed to open racket angle.

I will still bookmark the video for later I need to do more of those drills

 

[Zezima]

Thought the exact same. The FH shots look very spin focused from letting the ball drop. For me he is tall and should be using this to drive his opponent back from the table.

Could he be late because he is a bit stiff so his racket speed coming through is a bit slow and inconsistent? I think just being a bit more relaxed would help.

Its a combination of having slow recovery after a shot, being able to watch the ball longer and deciding for the right swingpath, and I am mostly further back and get a shorter ball instead and in matches slow anticipation.

In trainingsmatches I do remember hitting earlier timings not always but atleast some. Because there I know what spin they are capable of producing where they gonna place so anticipation is better to react early etc. And because I am stronger and dont feel the pressure I play closer to the table. And since 2nd topspin is mostly not needed I go back way less than in matches.

 

[Zezima]

Thes

This pictures is exactly what I have been seeing. You have this habit of going backwards in your game. This is why I suggested the jumping forward drill as it is near impossible if your body is leaning backwards. This backwards motion takes all the aggression out of your game and puts you in he back foot. Personally I think this habit has been created from the hard rubbers you have been using taking confidence out of your game.

Try dominating the table with the objective of forcing your opponent back. You will have to accept errors at the start but it will help in the long run. And you just have to accept that good balls will get past you and that is just a good shot so move on from it and get back on top of your opponent.

Might interest you. On Tuesday night for my season games I played against a very tall player (high rating player). It was a contest of who could control the table. If I forced him back, the point was mine, if he forced me back, the point was his. We both resorted to long dipping serves trying to drive each other back as our height difference made it clear that the person at the table had the advantage.

Yeah I agree I prob just defaulted to the topsheet part since I could generate a lot of spin atleast but could not penetrate the rubber enough to get good consistent faster loops. So my strokes all look more upwards.

Anyway about going back idk. As a tall player and watching other tall players its just nature to go back. Idk what TTR you are but eventually people get good at placement. And when staying close to the table you need super short strokes and also if it gets played to your elbow its over.
My anticipation is just too slow for that. I don't know if fast multiball everywhere would make me better in this apartment. Pros and some high level amateurs that are tall also go half distance immediately. The thing is when I am further back I should stop with these scooping and just topspin, countetopspin instead. In comparison to them I am way too passive/safe in that department.

 

[Zezima]

Another thing I would note is this slow feeding style drill. I wouldn't do it. You are crabbing to the spot where you know the ball is going to go. Arms still up Infront of you, then starting your backstroke etc. your arm, body and legs are disconnected in your movement making you stiff and robotic. This type of training will forever have you late and hitting the ball late. This is pure waiting to response to your opponent habit creating. Table tennis is a game of intent. You need to force the ball into the zones you want and move in anticipation. Play the percentages.

Personally I would never move with my arms held out in front of me unless I am moving back to a neutral position, not to the ball.....moving to my FH, when my foot lands, my arm is back, shoulders forward but rotated, legs loaded with energy so I have all the time in the world to play a higher quality shot. BH side I move and have my blade back waiting for the ball to come into my contact zone....if your opponent is good enough to play against the spin etc of the game (play a higher risk shot) well good on them, a good shot is a good shot....but these shots get harder and harder for your opponent if you are able to hit with power and quality.

Oh ok interesting I had that info in my mind that I should never start backswinging before I dont know where the ball is going. That's why I had the blade in front.

But whar you do makes sense and I am pretty sure I do it aswell when I train with a human partner actually I will try to film myself. Maybe I am not doing it this extreme but still..
But isn't it also bad if I was preparing too early? Letss say we play 2fh 2bh. And at the switch I go from fh to bh lets say but without the ball has been played. I am not selfaware enough to be able to tell with confidence if I prepare my stroke before the ball has been played or not.

These are all things having an outstander watching and reminding me would be helpful

 

[Amayzde]

Yeah but here I was actively thinking about bat angle etc. Except for backspin exercise. There I always have it very open automatically. Otherwise it would look much worse than shown here.

It does feel like I use a lot of legs because it starts burning a lot but I agree there might be some leakage in the energy transfer. I don't feel my shoulder hurting or anything I keep it only as tense to not backswing further back.
I couldn't tell you when exactly I tense my hand when starting to swing forwards.
Anyway I also hit some out. But I would say mostly into the net. Then again in a match I don't think I ever get a backspin ball like this. Maybe in rare cases the same spin but slower atleast. In matches I only hit into the net if I underestimated the spin and want to kill the ball hitting too much forwards.

Also I watched your video I still don't quite understand the difference. He just hits the ball at the peak while I seem to hit it when it's falling again.
And my forwards motion vs a BS ball makes my stroke inconsistent when the ball is falling(my assumption).

In matches I struggle more after my opening. Even though the other videos look good to me idk why I am not as agressively hitting the balls as I do here.

Right now the other videos rarher than the one vs backspin is more important to me. I want to be very confident to hit them in matches like here.

I like how you are focussing on every single detail possible except for the 1 I told you to focus on... Ugh.

Forget the racket angle, forget the backswing. Focus on the leg pushing action as is demonstrated in the video at 3:37. Watch how Fang demonstrates that the leg push action is like a single-leg squat. You push yourself up from the ground. As long as you do this correctly, there is no such thing as energy leakage. At least not for the lifting action. Once you get this down you can focus more about directing it foreward. But for now it all about lifting.

And yes you did hit some of the backspin balls out. But thats not because you did it right. You just found the somewhat right racket angle to compensate for your lack of engaging your legs to do the lifting work. Which is a very bad habbit that lots of 'robot players' adopt. They just find the right angle and start landing their shots that way. Yet in a match they miss every topspin because every ball has a different length/speed/spin.

 

[MORTtheORT]

Yeah I agree I prob just defaulted to the topsheet part since I could generate a lot of spin atleast but could not penetrate the rubber enough to get good consistent faster loops. So my strokes all look more upwards.

Anyway about going back idk. As a tall player and watching other tall players its just nature to go back. Idk what TTR you are but eventually people get good at placement. And when staying close to the table you need super short strokes and also if it gets played to your elbow its over.
My anticipation is just too slow for that. I don't know if fast multiball everywhere would make me better in this apartment. Pros and some high level amateurs that are tall also go half distance immediately. The thing is when I am further back I should stop with these scooping and just topspin, countetopspin instead. In comparison to them I am way too passive/safe in that department.

Pros and half decent armatures go mid distance because the ball is carrying that far and player open up with power and speed. They are not going there for the sake of it, it is because they have a high level opponent who is hitting the ball with power and lots of spin energy to kick the ball. You are not playing against this level of players. You are stuck in the rubbish zone of players and need to learn how to put this type of player away.

You have rubbers now that will work in short uncomfortable shots now. Your rubber can block with speed and spin now. You need to relax, make lots of errors learning that the shot is there. Just go "stuff it" and play the shot. Don't worry about perfect form,.what spin is on the ball, just relax and swing to win.