Feedback on backhand topspin

[Lula]

Hello! Have been a long time lurker here. Held pretty good level when i was "active" for ten years ago. Needed motivation so changed to penhold for maybe 14 months ago. Unfortunately due to health issues, mostly with dizziness and blurry vision i have not practiced for maybe 11 months. Have been feeling a bit better and gotten glasses which help, so this is the second training after the long break. By the way how do people play with glasses? really difficult.

As a part time coach for many years it is always easier to give others feedback. Have tried to film myself to be able to give myself feedback and interested in how others think.
My picture in my head before was that i drop the racket and hit up/down, hit with the shoulder and do not accelerate but i do not find it so bad.
Now i feel the following:
- nothing happens with the body? it is like my arm is disconnected
- drops racket more when i try to do a bit topspin. Some pros do this but i feel i should be able to go more back and forward only, but maybe harder to relax?
- Feels like i do not get any time to hit the ball. Would need to create more space by hitting the ball closer the body, try to get the elbow more in front or turn in the wrist more. But im afraid that i start to hook the ball on the left instead if i put elbow more in front.
- start stroke earlier and relax? do not think i get so much racket speed. If i wait for the ball to get the racket i wont be able to accelerate. Also not possible to accelerate if tense
- grip? Lebrun grip maybe can help with angle
- starting to brush the ball at around 1:60. Think i get pretty thick hit. Have always had a hard time to get arm to more from 0-100. Example Franzizka do this good. I think this limit how much spin i get. But i do think this could be because i want for to long so ball sits on racket so have no time to create racket speed. I get more 50 50 50 all the time, instead of 0-100.

Haha, a lot to work on. Casn not do everything. Will keep trying to hit the ball on more of the right side. Will also try to create more space. Anyway, very happy i can atleast play again.

All help appreciated.
Hope the link work

New video · Saturday, Mar 21 🎬

Tap to view!

photos.app.goo.gl

Lol, do the video work? this will be a discussion forum with myself where i can gather my thoughts haha

 

[Julzig]

Looks pretty decent!
The main thing I see is that you are indeed pretty tense. The movements are kinda snappy? Not sure how to describe it.
Once the wrist is more loose you can utilise it more in your brushes. Maybe starting with the tip of your racket infront of your belly can help with the wrist movement.
The last nitpick would be your legs. Most if not all of the upward motion comes from your arm. If you start with slightly more bent knees and go up while hitting you can gain the last percentages aswell.

My Penhold skills aren't great so I hope these tips are atleast a little usefull. Keep it up!

 

[Lula]

Hello! Have been a long time lurker here. Held pretty good level when i was "active" for ten years ago. Needed motivation so changed to penhold for maybe 14 months ago. Unfortunately due to health issues, mostly with dizziness and blurry vision i have not practiced for maybe 11 months. Have been feeling a bit better and gotten glasses which help so this is the second traing after the break. By the way how do people play with glasses? really difficult.

As a part time coach for many years it is always easier to give others feedback. Have tried to film myself to be able to give myself feedback and interested in how others think.
My picture in my head before was that i drop the racket and hit up/down, hit with the shoulder and do not accelerate but i do not find it so bad.
Now i feel the following:
- nothing happens with the body? it is like my arm is disconnected
- drops racket more when i try to do a bit topspin. Some pros do this but i feel i should be able to go more back and forward only, but maybe harder to relax?
- Feels like i do not get any time to hit the ball. Would need to create more space by hitting the ball closer the body or try to get the elbow more in front. But im afraid that i start to hook the ball on the left instead if i put elbow more in front.
- start stroke earlier and relax? do not think i get so much racket speed. If i wait for the ball to get the racket i wont be able to accelerate. Also not possible to accelerate if tense
- grip? Lebrun grip maybe can help with angle

Haha, a lot to work on. Casn not do everything. Will keep trying to hit the ball on more of the right side. Will also try to create more space. Anyway, very happy i can atleast play again.

All help appreciated.
Hope the link work

New video · Saturday, Mar 21 🎬

Tap to view!

photos.app.goo.gl

Looks pretty decent!
The main thing I see is that you are indeed pretty tense. The movements are kinda snappy? Not sure how to describe it.
Once the wrist is more loose you can utilise it more in your brushes. Maybe starting with the tip of your racket infront of your belly can help with the wrist movement.
The last nitpick would be your legs. Most if not all of the upward motion comes from your arm. If you start with slightly more bent knees and go up while hitting you can gain the last percentages aswell.

My Penhold skills aren't great so I hope these tips are atleast a little usefull. Keep it up!

Thanks for the feedback. I have played backhand a lot before by going up and down so i think i am partly more tense since i try force myself to go more back and forth. Will try to relax more in the future. I also think that if i could get racket head more towards my belly i will get some more wrist and also a bit more space to hit the ball. I find it easy with penhold to do to much wrist in the beginning. I think if i can turn wrist in and still start and control the motion from the elbow the wrist will follow nicely.
Yeah, i think i could try to push from the legs and belly a bit more. Think a lot of good players get more power from this.

I think it is good to get the basic motion from the elbow then start to experiment with different finger pressure otherwise it will be so wobbly.


Find it difficult how high racket should be. If the opponent loops or if the ball is low i can have racket low and just brush back. But if the ball gets high or in my own attack i find hard then to change and have racket higher and brush forward and down. Probably easier to relax if i drop the racket a bit.

Will try to use a bit more body, turn racket towards stomach and try to keep the form but relax. Thanks. Much appreciated.

 

[Lula]

Block against loop
What i notice:
- i try to hit the right side of the ball more and have the racket high, but feels like elbow then almost get to close to the body?
- Hit the ball a bit in front of me --> fast change between bh and fh but the arm is almost already extended so have no power left. By hitting closer to the body i would be able to extend the forearm more
- I bend the back instead of the legs?

Feedback appreciated

 

[Oliverpool]

Block against loop
What i notice:
- i try to hit the right side of the ball more and have the racket high, but feels like elbow then almost get to close to the body?
- Hit the ball a bit in front of me --> fast change between bh and fh but the arm is almost already extended so have no power left. By hitting closer to the body i would be able to extend the forearm more
- I bend the back instead of the legs?

Feedback appreciated

I play Penhold as well. I feel that for both backhand topspin and blocks, your blade angle is quite closed. You would get more
Power on your backhand topspin if you put a little more pressure on your
Thumb which would open the angle more. That allows your to hit through the ball more Instead of just purely
Spinning it as you are Doing now.

Same for the backhand block. You are blocking the ball by almost hitting the top of the ball. If you put more
Pressure on your thumb you would find the angle Of the blade opening more Which gives you a “bigger” surface area as well as the ability to push forward on the ball.

 

[Lula]

I play Penhold as well. I feel that for both backhand topspin and blocks, your blade angle is quite closed. You would get more
Power on your backhand topspin if you put a little more pressure on your
Thumb which would open the angle more. That allows your to hit through the ball more Instead of just purely
Spinning it as you are Doing now.

Same for the backhand block. You are blocking the ball by almost hitting the top of the ball. If you put more
Pressure on your thumb you would find the angle Of the blade opening more Which gives you a “bigger” surface area as well as the ability to push forward on the ball.

Okey! I think i try to brush over the ball on purpose because i try to get spin in the ball. I agree that i could play more thicker and push forward more against top spin, i think i usually do more like that.
When i watch chinese women tabletennis on youtube i think it looks like they play more open angle and do not create spin but when i saw them live it seems like they get a thin "spin" hit even with a more open angle. But i do not understand how they do this? Maybe we need to play a bit thicker in general with this ball?

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Lula]

Forehand counter/smash
This i think acutally look pretty decent haha.
Maybe can try to relax the arm a bit more and have it a little more closer to 90 degree in elbow.
I play with short pimples on forehand side.

 

[latej]

@Lula are you, are you, coming to tree??? I mean to TTD's Duesseldorf meet up?

 

[Lula]

@Lula are you, are you, coming to tree??? I mean to TTD's Duesseldorf meet up?

Just started playing again this week after almost one years break due to health issues so have been pretty far away from tabletennis. Maybe i can go next year Will really think about it if you can teach me backhand topsin haha

 

[latej]

Just started playing again this week after almost one years break due to health issues so have been pretty far away from tabletennis. Maybe i can go next year Will really think about it if you can teach me backhand topsin haha

I see. It's great you could resume training. It's fresh but you still have couple of months till the meeting, and even if you didn't, it doesn't matter, we just hit and have fun ;-) I don't think I can teach you BH spin, but there are things I'd like to say and it would be so much easier in person, you know. Cheers.

 

[Lula]

@latej I appreciate that you want me to come there Sounds like a cool thing, great community here! Also really nice when people are interested in tabletennis. I feel like many are interested in playing tabletennis but not the sport in general.

@Oliverpool Do you tweak your penhold blades? Have a really hard time now in beginning to know how much to sand, on the edges on the handle itself and also have rubber higher up or not. Feels like everyone is doing differently. I want the blade to sit hard in the handle but also make it easier to play backhand, i think sanding the blade itself can help for this.

 

[Lula]

BH: active block against loop and loop against block
Trying to do put racket more towards body in beginning, i think this also make me start the stroke earlier which i think is good. Felt at bit harder to time the stroke but i think it looks better than before, not letting the ball sit on the racket then do the stroke.

Also noticed this:
- Still look pretty stiff and no movement in body whatsoever
- everytime i miss is out. So could go even more forward in the stroke
- Arm is still sometimes far away from the body, i think this make the control in block bad and have no arm to extend if i want to attack
- i look like bambi on ice? Maybe could have feet wider a part and be a bit more steady

 

[Bran]

Could be informative to see your shakehand BH loop as a reference. I think you're not letting your wrist drop (inward) enough, which doesn't allow your bat to building enough speed by the time you hit the ball. It's most obvious when you loop at the table. When the wrist is loose, the RPB grip is such that the bat axis is basically facing the belly at close to right angle, but it seems your starting point is closer to 45°. I suspect this forces you to tense up to achieve racket speed, to get decent ball quality. Addressing this will likely help you relax overall and then to better use the rest of your body to generate quality.

 

[Oliverpool]

@latej I appreciate that you want me to come there Sounds like a cool thing, great community here! Also really nice when people are interested in tabletennis. I feel like many are interested in playing tabletennis but not the sport in general.

@Oliverpool Do you tweak your penhold blades? Have a really hard time now in beginning to know how much to sand, on the edges on the handle itself and also have rubber higher up or not. Feels like everyone is doing differently. I want the blade to sit hard in the handle but also make it easier to play backhand, i think sanding the blade itself can help for this.

Yes I do sand my penhold blade wings quite a bit. This is very subjective for many. I have seen some that file a while lot off both wings so much that the handle becomes narrower that you can have your thumb and index finger touching each other easily. Some almost none just shaving off the sharp edges off both sides and everything else in between. Low level and even elite player of way over 2000 levels.

For me, i only sand the edges off the thumb area. But I tried sanding deeply close to the index wing edge so that the index finger can grip the handle smoothly and easily to a more rounded from edge to edge on the index wing size so that its smooth and comfortable with less pressure on the index when gripping lightly. I personally prefer it the latter way.

I have also a range of people and coaches tell me that you have to have less pressure on the index to other saying there must be more pressure on the index. So I believe penhold grip is very personal. Even on the back three fingers.

For me I have a slight curl on the back 3 fingers. Closer to Dang Qui/Wang Hao grip and Wong Chun Ting and Felix who both have a very curled grip. Xu Xin has almost straight back 3 fingers and is very forehand oriented. Having straight back 3 fingers results in a more powerful forehand but very stiff backhand strokes. Painful for me even. You can try adjust this to suit your game/technique and grip comfort. I believe the grip that enables you to be more relax and loose if the one to go for. Its always the whip rather then the stiff power that wins out

The index is used to adjust angles and grip or ensure the blade does not fly out. But I ultimately went with a loose grip on the index. When the index is used alot to put pressure on the blade, it ultimately results in a very closed angle for the backhand. Ultimately for me, relying on the thumb and back 3 fingers resulted in a closer angle on the forehand and the more open angle on the backhand which suits me more. Curling the back three fingers more for a more backhand oriented game like WCT and Felix and does open the angle of the forehand more as well. See Felix forehand vs Dang Qiu and you will see what I mean. Felix has a very open blade angle for his forehand while Dang qiu has varied ones but can and does close his foreand angle more in loops and counter loops. I found that my power in both my forehand and backhand improved when I concentrated on using my thumb more and being more relaxed on the index. Again, Wang Hao in his tutorial does say that the index is the most important esp in the backhand loops and must be used to put pressure on the blade and who am I to argue with him. So ultimately, Penhold has more variations on grip then shakehand as everyone hands is different. Even the shape of the handles from STiga and Butterfly and Donic and Xiom are all different. Note that butterfly has 2 different size of penhold grips on their blades as well. Their Viscaria and Viscaria SALC are all on the smaller and thinner side by a lot compared to the rest of their penhold models. So if you want a bigger handle for ALC, go with FZD ALC or Timo Boll ALC. For SALC, go with FZD SALC.

Oh another area that people have sanded is the back of the handle where the webbing between your thumb and index seats on. This thins the blade and adjust the neutral angle of the blade as well. It also relives pressure on the index and thumb somewhat. Perhaps you can try it on a spare cheap blade to see if that works for you.

Hope you find out what works for you!

 

[GhostBackhand]

I’m mainly a backhand-oriented player. I think you should raise your elbow a little and point the tip of the racket toward your body by adjusting your wrist. At the same time, stay relaxed while waiting for the ball and then accelerate suddenly. The power will come from two things: raising your elbow to create a twist in your arm and releasing it, and twisting your wrist toward your body and then snapping it out. Right now, you seem a bit too tense. I wish you the best in improving your backhand.

 

[latej]

Hey @Lula, I want to try to say something I noticed. Not sure, but will try. In the 1st video, both BH and FH. I think your form is OK in the normal speed impact. The problem, imo, is when you try to play the ball faster, when you try to accelerate more. When I saw it, it feels like you are basically just trying to make the same movement faster, and by movement I mean the whole sequence - like imagine the sequence is made of parts and you just try to play the parts faster, without changing the relative distance of those parts. That may sound like, of course, this is how we make any movement faster. But I think it actually doesn't work that way. If you do it that way, it feels like you use the muscles more, you know to make it quicker, and as you said yourself, you feel tense, and I agree that in those "faster" shots, if you do it that way, it looks more tense. I think that the proper way of making faster movement involves changing the distance of the parts of the movement chain. If we take FH, we press on the right foot, this goes up, results in some waist rotation, and then follows the arm movement, simplified. In different speeds, there is different amount of waist rotation, before the arm is involved, like the distance between the two is different. I sometimes say the waist pre-rotates more and then the arm needs to make up for the extra delay and accelerates more. Of course that is just mnemonics. But you can feel it for yourself, ideally the arm motion is induced by the body motion... In the BH, you may try to put a bit more weight on the left leg, which will allow you add more power to the arm movement... I think it will be about playing with those differences, finding the right amount... Cheers. Btw. In the last BH video I didn't have that strong feeling, not sure why...

 

[Tyce]

I don't think I have enough of a level to comment. It looks like you have a lot of good basics and concepts and you're just working on tying it together as a whole.
I am that guy who is going to comment on using red and blue rubbers though, unfortunately that's not legal in matches.

 

[Lula]

Thanks for all the replies. I am on the phone hard to reply to everyone separately. But appreciate all the support.
I think I need to give some context. Before I often felt like I played to much up and down in backhand and almost hit the left side of the ball. I feel like by hitting the right side of the ball I am forced to play more forward. I think this is a big part in why elbow is close to the body, more stiff motion and wrist not so much in motion. I feel like this have worked well since it have helped me to play more forward. I do agree that in theory with what you are saying. Elbow should be more out, put racket head towards belly and relax. Asweell as get power from the body, I do believe in more pushing from the legs and belly and go from left to right with more hip when I have time and when I step back.

I do not really know how to think. I think it is way to hard for me to fix all of your good suggestions, at least all at once. I also find it hard how to get wrist more relaxed, pointed back and with elbow more out and still hit a bit on the right side? If I come to much on the left side I think i will start to hit more upwards again.

I am practicing a lot with a ball on a pen and trying to do shadow play and do what you say but still hit the right side of the ball. Will try to do it with a ball aswell, but I do think I need to do much shadow play. Really hard to change technique with the ball as an adult.
Will try to change and post more videos.

I also think how much I can relax depends a bit on how good grip i have on the racket and will probably need to find what fits me how much I should sand, and rubber up and down.

Haha I find it a big big misconception that you need to be a certain level to be able to coach and give advice. Feel like there are many different schools of thought and different ways to view things. Have not been playing tournaments for 10+ years ago.

Will try to adjust. Once again, appreciate the feedback. Feels pretty nice after coaching a lot of others that someone wants to help me and my play. Last time I got feedback was years ago, so really fun. Thanks.

 

[Lula]

Yes I do sand my penhold blade wings quite a bit. This is very subjective for many. I have seen some that file a while lot off both wings so much that the handle becomes narrower that you can have your thumb and index finger touching each other easily. Some almost none just shaving off the sharp edges off both sides and everything else in between. Low level and even elite player of way over 2000 levels.

For me, i only sand the edges off the thumb area. But I tried sanding deeply close to the index wing edge so that the index finger can grip the handle smoothly and easily to a more rounded from edge to edge on the index wing size so that its smooth and comfortable with less pressure on the index when gripping lightly. I personally prefer it the latter way.

I have also a range of people and coaches tell me that you have to have less pressure on the index to other saying there must be more pressure on the index. So I believe penhold grip is very personal. Even on the back three fingers.

For me I have a slight curl on the back 3 fingers. Closer to Dang Qui/Wang Hao grip and Wong Chun Ting and Felix who both have a very curled grip. Xu Xin has almost straight back 3 fingers and is very forehand oriented. Having straight back 3 fingers results in a more powerful forehand but very stiff backhand strokes. Painful for me even. You can try adjust this to suit your game/technique and grip comfort. I believe the grip that enables you to be more relax and loose if the one to go for. Its always the whip rather then the stiff power that wins out

The index is used to adjust angles and grip or ensure the blade does not fly out. But I ultimately went with a loose grip on the index. When the index is used alot to put pressure on the blade, it ultimately results in a very closed angle for the backhand. Ultimately for me, relying on the thumb and back 3 fingers resulted in a closer angle on the forehand and the more open angle on the backhand which suits me more. Curling the back three fingers more for a more backhand oriented game like WCT and Felix and does open the angle of the forehand more as well. See Felix forehand vs Dang Qiu and you will see what I mean. Felix has a very open blade angle for his forehand while Dang qiu has varied ones but can and does close his foreand angle more in loops and counter loops. I found that my power in both my forehand and backhand improved when I concentrated on using my thumb more and being more relaxed on the index. Again, Wang Hao in his tutorial does say that the index is the most important esp in the backhand loops and must be used to put pressure on the blade and who am I to argue with him. So ultimately, Penhold has more variations on grip then shakehand as everyone hands is different. Even the shape of the handles from STiga and Butterfly and Donic and Xiom are all different. Note that butterfly has 2 different size of penhold grips on their blades as well. Their Viscaria and Viscaria SALC are all on the smaller and thinner side by a lot compared to the rest of their penhold models. So if you want a bigger handle for ALC, go with FZD ALC or Timo Boll ALC. For SALC, go with FZD SALC.

Oh another area that people have sanded is the back of the handle where the webbing between your thumb and index seats on. This thins the blade and adjust the neutral angle of the blade as well. It also relives pressure on the index and thumb somewhat. Perhaps you can try it on a spare cheap blade to see if that works for you.

Hope you find out what works for you!

Thanks for the long answer. Have also understood that there is a lot of variation in sanding and in grip. Use short pimple on forehand so open angle is okey there. Have tried some different grips and are not certain, asweell with the pressure on which finger. I mainly try to focus on the stroke mechanics at this point. But I do believe grip change the possibility of a good backhand so still important.
I have one racket where I mostly sand at index finger, but also behind at the blade handle itself and I have the forehand rubber a bit up. I think I will try to have some variations on two different rackets. Find this very difficult to know. Feel like I have now it feels comfortable but also probably sit more loose in the hand since I have sanded away a lot so maybe harder to get the racket so sit tight. I assume I need to keep on trying? Buy cheap blades so I can try? Sand a little at once.
Regarding grip I am really afraid to get to the ”grip djungle” when you don’t really know and just try new things all the time.
Appreciate your help, thanks.

 

[Lula]

Also find it hard to know how much wrist to have. To much wrist and I think it becomes unsafe but probably good for spin. And I think more risk with penhold that it get to much wrist.