Why do pros risk tossing the ball outside the 30 degree window?

[allencorn]

Sure the rule states "near vertical", but pros routinely toss the ball from near the center line back toward their body. What is the advantage of tossing closer to 30 degrees than vertical? There must be an advantage, otherwise they would not risk being faulted for a non-vertical (> 30 degree) toss. Is it some physics or biomechanics advantage?

 

[andymagata]

Very interesting topic. Another one in the same area, hiding the ball with their head. Why do they keep doing that? They are actually risking a loss in an important match, like Anton Källberg did in Malmö Smash.

 

[SwingRobo]

This allows the ball and the rubber to make fuller contact, generating more spin, while hitting the ball closer to the body, providing better concealment.

 

[SwingRobo]

This allows the ball and the rubber to make fuller contact, generating more spin, while hitting the ball closer to the body, providing better concealment.

Especially the inside-out serve, it can also make the serve more stable

 

[mamedium]

because after 30, you'll want more adventures

 

[lodro]

because after 30, you'll want more adventures

.....and after 75 you just want peace and quiet 🤣

 

[andymagata]

They just need to toss the ball two centimeters higher. They are pro’s, it is very strange…

 

[kapahoo]

Old habit. Everyone is doing it. No one really cares - most people think it’s the rules that are at fault, not the servers.

 

[CyNyC]

I think we are on a "brink point" of this topic nowadays.

Player side:
Doing the same thing for 5 times a week per 8-10 years creates strong gabits; and habits give confidence, rythm, self encouragement, ecc... it's diffcult to suddendly change one of the most important part of your play.
I'm no pro to judge impact of 10-15 degrees difference in service spin.

Referee side:
It's clear that now service rules are under the lens and we will hear many fault calls on that (TTR or not...I'm looking at youth WTT events and a lot of umpires are very severe about service execution)

I see 2 choices:
- let this moment pass, thinking that umpires are "boring and against the players" and relying that on minor leagues no one dares to argue about it;
- push coaches of youngsters to pay attention and teach the safest execution to avoid bad habits in future generations.

I'm obviously for the latter as an opportunity to evolve the game in a fair way, but I don't see 100% of community (where I play/train) accepting consequences of that...

 

[kapahoo]

There is actually a third alternative - change the rules. Everyone will be happy.

99,9 % of the games won't have cameras and professional umpires.

 

[longle]

looking back at the SF of ITTF WC 2024, Ma Long should have been faulted for his reverse pendulum

 

[Lula]

I am very certain that they do this active and intentional . If they are not called out they do it more and they especially do it more when the game is closer cause then it is much more pressure on umpire if they take the serve.
They do it because they want to win.

 

[allencorn]

I am still not clear how a falling ball with an angle / is more effective for serving than a ball falling straight down |. It must be, though, as so many top level folks do it even with the risk of faulting.

 

[DrBean]

I am still not clear how a falling ball with an angle / is more effective for serving than a ball falling straight down |. It must be, though, as so many top level folks do it even with the risk of faulting.

Think about which ball will fly further - a baseball struck floating in space, or a 95 mph fastball?

 

[boretennis]

I am still not clear how a falling ball with an angle / is more effective for serving than a ball falling straight down |. It must be, though, as so many top level folks do it even with the risk of faulting.

because the ball will be faster. it's the wonderful world of physics.

 

[Archosaurus]

It's necessary to throw the ball a little bit towards you for a good serve motion. Otherwise you'd need to throw the ball in front of your chest (which some people do), or move backwards. For a typical pendulum serve at least, I don't find any benefits on axe type backhand serves.

I don't think the translation velocity of the ball matters that much to be honest. I've tried it both ways and the only thing which has a real benefit is throwing the ball higher. You do get a measurable spin increase if you throw it to the rafters. It's just in general much riskier, but the benefit is visible enough that I still do an overhead throw.

I haven't calculated it but I'm pretty sure the force increase from the minor translation velocity into the racket isn't that impactful. Most of the time you're not serving for maximum spin anyway, so it might even complicate things if your motion is not built for it.

But what do I know.

 

[songdavid98]

For the people who think it's about physics:
That's 1% of the reason.
I've tested with spinsight. It hardly matters.

The 99% reason is for hiding your serve.
Hide (most of) your arm.
Hide (most of) your racket.
The more you hide, the better.

Don't pretend to be clever, talking about subtle physics.
Talk about the obvious hidden serve.

 

[SwingRobo]

For the people who think it's about physics:
That's 1% of the reason.
I've tested with spinsight. It hardly matters.

The 99% reason is for hiding your serve.
Hide (most of) your arm.
Hide (most of) your racket.
The more you hide, the better.

Don't pretend to be clever, talking about subtle physics.
Talk about the obvious hidden serve.

You really should search for the serve videos of Qihai Zhou and Enting Xi on Bilibili . They clearly demonstrate the strong spin of low-toss and side-toss serves. Perhaps you are not skilled at serving this type, so you cannot fully apply your own test experiences to those of professional athletes.

In addition, side-toss serves can also increase the stability of reverse sidespin serves. Watch W. Schlager, Zhang Jike, and Satsuki Odo, their serves all involve some side toss.

 

[igorponger]

IMPUDENCY COMES FROM TIMIDNESS.

Umpires all lacking guts. Once you take too timid attitude towards players on the court this should always encourage players of self-indulgence in the form of disregard of rules , spiting to all umpires and suchlike. Life is life.
Heh, spare rod and spoil child, you must know.

 

[hallohallowhatuwant]

I do it naturally. It's easier for me to rotate around the ball and hence more spin. My coach keeps telling me not to but when the serve is better...🤷