Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Archosaurus]

This is me transferring badminton footwork terminology to TT. The problem with TT is that the footwork terminology and teaching is just horribly bad. Obviously pros already do it intuitively, but these are not fully developed in the coaching literature at all, but is actually extremely critical.

TT didnt even have split step education until I actually introduced it to this forum. Sad state of affairs indeed.

"Split step" has been a concept since I started playing a decade ago, and I'm sure far before that. I think the idea was borrowed from tennis originally. I would be wary of saying things like you introduced any kind of concept to any field, but sure, let's say re-introduced because I haven't heard it in a while.

One problem I've noticed in (online) TT coaching is that because nobody measures things empirically, often people demonstrate one thing, but are actually doing another. There's no telemetry to call anyone out for their discrepancies so people just keep saying things wildly and come up with all kinds of ideas like "wrapping around the ball" or "hit-brush" to describe feelings which don't translate at all to what's actually being done.

I think a lot of things are also being ignored which probably ought not to be ignored, but I wouldn't have the expertise to say if that's actually a problem. I don't remember who, but there's this one female Chinese coach on bilibili who really goes into detail and talks about all of the common issues and consequences, and she demonstrates the technique isolated one step at a time, correctly and incorrectly and explaining what's the difference.

 

[blahness]

"Split step" has been a concept since I started playing a decade ago, and I'm sure far before that. I think the idea was borrowed from tennis originally. I would be wary of saying things like you introduced any kind of concept to any field, but sure, let's say re-introduced because I haven't heard it in a while.

One problem I've noticed in (online) TT coaching is that because nobody measures things empirically, often people demonstrate one thing, but are actually doing another. There's no telemetry to call anyone out for their discrepancies so people just keep saying things wildly and come up with all kinds of ideas like "wrapping around the ball" or "hit-brush" to describe feelings which don't translate at all to what's actually being done.

I think a lot of things are also being ignored which probably ought not to be ignored, but I wouldn't have the expertise to say if that's actually a problem. I don't remember who, but there's this one female Chinese coach on bilibili who really goes into detail and talks about all of the common issues and consequences, and she demonstrates the technique isolated one step at a time, correctly and incorrectly and explaining what's the difference.

No, literally this concept of split step is basically absent in TT discourse until i repeated brought it up (I know almost all other racquet sports talk about it), but funnily enough all the pros do it. Obviously those who didnt do it were just doing things suboptimally and so wasnt good enough to go pro.

Yes exactly, it is not precise at all, and this is why amateurs get super lost. Even coaches are incredibly imprecise with things here, which really shows how bad sports coaching literature is in table tennis.

Even for eg the use of fingers and forearm supination/pronation to achieve max spin is not really talked about much. Once this is figured out, the spin levels become way, way stronger. Instead, people just talk about using the "wrist", and i bet this is also why people injure their wrists due to improper usage.

Or core bracing to improve power transmission and speed.

Or the role of right hip internal rotation to initiate the FH loop.

Instead, you get like 10001 post about H3 boosting or the minute differences between blades.

With badminton there are extremely precise tutorials on almost every detail of shots lol.

Basically, TT technique tutorials are a huge pile of shit at the moment lol.

 

[Archosaurus]

Based on what I've seen the Chinese ex-CNT coaches talk about serving, their videos are probably the best, but there might be a language barrier going on. They talk about "braking" and "slicing the chest" which are things I've developed myself and noticed that good servers will do, but aren't something I've seen anyone talk about explicitly until recently. I don't believe they actually explain them empirically correctly but the concept of the feeling is correct.

A few coaches also talk about that "braking" feeling on the forehand loop, and I did get visibly more spin when I was trying it out a few weeks ago. Not quite ready for every shot in games, but it's definitely a step forward. I feel it's related to "tensing the hand on contact" and other stuff, but the nifty part is all of that happens automatically if you go for the right feeling. Also stuff that nobody has explicitly described in that way until recently.

 

[blahness]

Based on what I've seen the Chinese ex-CNT coaches talk about serving, their videos are probably the best, but there might be a language barrier going on. They talk about "braking" and "slicing the chest" which are things I've developed myself and noticed that good servers will do, but aren't something I've seen anyone talk about explicitly until recently. I don't believe they actually explain them empirically correctly but the concept of the feeling is correct.

A few coaches also talk about that "braking" feeling on the forehand loop, and I did get visibly more spin when I was trying it out a few weeks ago. Not quite ready for every shot in games, but it's definitely a step forward. I feel it's related to "tensing the hand on contact" and other stuff, but the nifty part is all of that happens automatically if you go for the right feeling. Also stuff that nobody has explicitly described in that way until recently.

This can all be achieved with good finger usage, and by that i dont mean in a vague way, you have to deliberately activate your fingers in a way that contributes to the acceleration of the racket in the intended brushing direction. And this can be different for topspin, serves and pushes and flicks. You even need to figure out exactly which joint of the fingers is applying the intended pressure.

But basically, loose and then tighten (ie activate fingers) is merely the basics.

 

[Archosaurus]

This can all be achieved with good finger usage, and by that i dont mean in a vague way, you have to deliberately activate your fingers in a way that contributes to the acceleration of the racket in the intended brushing direction. And this can be different for topspin, serves and pushes and flicks. You even need to figure out exactly which joint of the fingers is applying the intended pressure.

But basically, loose and then tighten (ie activate fingers) is merely the basics.

Here's where we run into the issue of a lack of framework for describing technique; one guy will say it's about acceleration, and the other guy will say it's about the stiffness of the contact point, another guy will say it's about the stability of the racket angle and so on. One will have the opinion that only the fingers matter, the other will think it's the wrist, the other will say it's the waist and so on.

I see these kind of ideas in fields I'm a SME in and it's really harmful to beginners or even intermediates trying to learn because so much information out there is literally contradictory unless accompanied with more context. Expert opinions often go completely ignored because they don't echo the usual (incorrect) sentiment that tutorial makers and less insightful coaches popularize on the internet, either due to a lack of an empirical basis for statements or because the subject is so difficult to quantify and communicate to beginners because you need to already have expertise to even understand it.

 

[blahness]

Here's where we run into the issue of a lack of framework for describing technique; one guy will say it's about acceleration, and the other guy will say it's about the stiffness of the contact point, another guy will say it's about the stability of the racket angle and so on. One will have the opinion that only the fingers matter, the other will think it's the wrist, the other will say it's the waist and so on.

I see these kind of ideas in fields I'm a SME in and it's really harmful to beginners or even intermediates trying to learn because so much information out there is literally contradictory unless accompanied with more context. Expert opinions often go completely ignored because they don't echo the usual (incorrect) sentiment that tutorial makers and less insightful coaches popularize on the internet, either due to a lack of an empirical basis for statements or because the subject is so difficult to quantify and communicate to beginners because you need to already have expertise to even understand it.

Imo, you gotta build up step by step. A lot of technique is additive. Knowing how to use the fingers does not preclude knowing how to use the body or the hips or footwork. Each addition adds something useful to the stroke structure. Eventually the overall quality of the stroke is a combination of all these factors.

There isnt any 'correct way' to build this structure up imo. One could start with fingers alone with no footwork and then later add it in, others might do the opposite. But a lot of these details are indeed very important and often neglected.

Also tbh many experts also learnt it intuitively and even they dont realize what they are actually doing during the stroke so that further adds to the confusion.

 

[Archosaurus]

Some casual practice today. Playing really badly compared to monday, but it is what it is. I think my racket head speed and accuracy is slightly higher, but there's a ton of blindspots still overall, especially in transitions and in judging the ball. Today especially felt very heavy and slow and I couldn't really play my game. Serves absolute dogshit so I will have to disappoint the people who wanted to see some nice ones.

Setup is Dianchi D and Mantra-M, I'd say Dianchi D is honestly close enough to H3 you can use it mostly interchangeably. Mantra is fine too but a bit rapid. I'll use them for the honeymoon period then go back to H3 on both sides.

The really cheap Dianchi D version is interesting; if it really is a close-enough-to-H3 sheet but for half the price of even a commercial H3, then I might compromise with that. I'm sure there's some catch though, like bad QC or topsheet adhesion or whatever LOL.

Have not found anything else this close to H3 though. It feels more like orange than blue sponge. I didn't boost mine and just used it how it came with the factory boost. I would guess it's slightly less spinny and slightly faster, with maybe a flatter arc on blocks. Hardness tolerance on my sheet (mid-grade "Pro" version in the blue vacuum sealed package) is basically as good as H3 Provincial.

STIGA Mantra-M RED
Topsheet 29.0 - 30.0 A / 48.5 - 49.0 O
Sponge 28.5 - 30.0 A / 48.0 - 49.0 O

Dianchi D Pro blue packet 40A 2.20 BLACK
Topsheet 29.0 - 29.5 A / 53.0 - 53.0 O
Sponge 39.5 - 40.5 A / 58.0 - 59.0 O (Glue layer still on, probably not really that stiff once it gets put on)

 

[Haito]

Some casual practice today. Playing really badly compared to monday, but it is what it is. I think my racket head speed and accuracy is slightly higher, but there's a ton of blindspots still overall, especially in transitions and in judging the ball. Today especially felt very heavy and slow and I couldn't really play my game. Serves absolute dogshit so I will have to disappoint the people who wanted to see some nice ones.

Setup is Dianchi D and Mantra-M, I'd say Dianchi D is honestly close enough to H3 you can use it mostly interchangeably. Mantra is fine too but a bit rapid. I'll use them for the honeymoon period then go back to H3 on both sides.

The really cheap Dianchi D version is interesting; if it really is a close-enough-to-H3 sheet but for half the price of even a commercial H3, then I might compromise with that. I'm sure there's some catch though, like bad QC or topsheet adhesion or whatever LOL.

Have not found anything else this close to H3 though. It feels more like orange than blue sponge. I didn't boost mine and just used it how it came with the factory boost. I would guess it's slightly less spinny and slightly faster, with maybe a flatter arc on blocks. Hardness tolerance on my sheet (mid-grade "Pro" version in the blue vacuum sealed package) is basically as good as H3 Provincial.

STIGA Mantra-M RED
Topsheet 29.0 - 30.0 A / 48.5 - 49.0 O
Sponge 28.5 - 30.0 A / 48.0 - 49.0 O

Dianchi D Pro blue packet 40A 2.20 BLACK
Topsheet 29.0 - 29.5 A / 53.0 - 53.0 O
Sponge 39.5 - 40.5 A / 58.0 - 59.0 O (Glue layer still on, probably not really that stiff once it gets put on)

When serving contact the ball lower, the rule somebody suggested me is to contact the ball on the net height, it will make keep short serves shorter and the ball will be lower over the net in general.

 

[Archosaurus]

When serving contact the ball lower, the rule somebody suggested me is to contact the ball on the net height, it will make keep short serves shorter and the ball will be lower over the net in general.

Yeah, I know. They're going really sharply downwards and popping up high because I'm not doing that. I haven't been doing serve practice at all for a while and it's starting to show LOL. Also been playing a lot of shit players who it doesn't really matter how you serve to...

We have internal comps now on mondays so it will probably tighten it up to where it should be.

 

[Haito]

Today my wrist was especially stiff. It was hard to play openups. Then I remember @NextLevel super peculiar warmup warmup routine... Laj was standing and swinging as if you was doing back hand. I mimicked that today trying to loosen up my wrist....

And it worked, it totally hecking worked. Welp, mimic the best, you might learn something new everyday.

 

[Archosaurus]

Today my wrist was especially stiff. It was hard to play openups. Then I remember @NextLevel super peculiar warmup warmup routine... Laj was standing and swinging as if you was doing back hand. I mimicked that today trying to loosen up my wrist....

And it worked, it totally hecking worked. Welp, mimic the best, you might learn something new everyday.

Do you have anything for when everything is stiff?

 

[Haito]

Do you have anything for when everything is stiff?

Twist stretches. They release tension in a lot of body parts at the same time.

 

[dingyibvs]

Do you have anything for when everything is stiff?

If it lasts more than 4 hours you should seek immediate medical assistance

 

[dingyibvs]

My FH seems to be coming along nicely, a more forward going motion and a bit more looseness in the wrist were pretty easy to do. The other parts, e.g. arm motion driven almost entirely on body motion, no over rotation, more weight on the right leg etc. are all progressing very well. Just gonna need to fine tune some timing, magnitude of the motion, etc. so each shot can be adjusted according to situation.

On that account, it's another revelation I've had recently. I noticed in FZD's FH video, if you slow it down to 0.25x, you can see that he actually stands up/straightens up a bit after each shot before putting weight back on the right foot. I had noticed that before, and even tried it a bit, but found it to be a lot slower than immediately shifting weight to the right foot. But now I think I know why. He's resetting his stance for every shot, so that each shot is an individual sequence rather than a continual motion linked to the previous shot. This allows him to adjust for every shot, whether to his wide FH or to his BH, to a net or a high ball. It may seem superfluous and time wasting in a drill where every ball lands at a set place, but it's so much more applicable to game situations.

On the BH side the main focus was moving the elbow a bit more. It felt like I did, but after reviewing the recordings I think I only managed to move it maybe 2-3cm each shot! I need to do a lot more for BH loops. There isn't time for too much, especially for quick counters, but I think at least double that in looping situation. If I don't move the elbow back then I can't move it forward, which is essential for completing the backswing of the forearm for a more powerful shot.

FZD video below for reference:

 

[kindof99]

you can see that he actually stands up/straightens up a bit after each shot before putting weight back on the right foot. I had noticed that before, and even tried it a bit, but found it to be a lot slower than immediately shifting weight to the right foot.

FZD just stopped the body turn with the left foot gripping the ground like a brake. And then he used that stopping power to push his body for moving and forehand swing again. His left foot probably gripped on the floor on the time, but still used it to stop the body turn and push it for forehand swing. It is not standing up, but rather the visual effect of pushing the left foot/toes.

 

[blahness]

My FH seems to be coming along nicely, a more forward going motion and a bit more looseness in the wrist were pretty easy to do. The other parts, e.g. arm motion driven almost entirely on body motion, no over rotation, more weight on the right leg etc. are all progressing very well. Just gonna need to fine tune some timing, magnitude of the motion, etc. so each shot can be adjusted according to situation.

On that account, it's another revelation I've had recently. I noticed in FZD's FH video, if you slow it down to 0.25x, you can see that he actually stands up/straightens up a bit after each shot before putting weight back on the right foot. I had noticed that before, and even tried it a bit, but found it to be a lot slower than immediately shifting weight to the right foot. But now I think I know why. He's resetting his stance for every shot, so that each shot is an individual sequence rather than a continual motion linked to the previous shot. This allows him to adjust for every shot, whether to his wide FH or to his BH, to a net or a high ball. It may seem superfluous and time wasting in a drill where every ball lands at a set place, but it's so much more applicable to game situations.

On the BH side the main focus was moving the elbow a bit more. It felt like I did, but after reviewing the recordings I think I only managed to move it maybe 2-3cm each shot! I need to do a lot more for BH loops. There isn't time for too much, especially for quick counters, but I think at least double that in looping situation. If I don't move the elbow back then I can't move it forward, which is essential for completing the backswing of the forearm for a more powerful shot.

FZD video below for reference:

Yes, you got it completely right. It feels like a 'floating step' where he doesnt precommit to anything until he actually sees the opponent hit the ball and knows where it is coming, then he drops his centre of gravity to load up the foot to instantaneously move to the required position.

Yes, if you train this it is way more applicable to real game situations because opponents will place it always in a difficult spot for you and you need to be prepared for everything. Blind precommitting will just lead to being exploited.

 

[dingyibvs]

FZD just stopped the body turn with the left foot gripping the ground like a brake. And then he used that stopping power to push his body for moving and forehand swing again. His left foot probably gripped on the floor on the time, but still used it to stop the body turn and push it for forehand swing. It is not standing up, but rather the visual effect of pushing the left foot/toes.

I don't think that's it. It's pretty natural to brake with the left foot, and doesn't necessarily involve standing up. You can see in the video that ZJK doesn't do that and he doesn't over-rortate. I think it's something more akin to a filler step, something that helps with the next movement. It's obvious not completely necessary, as ZJK doesn't do it and he's got great footwork and transitions, but I'll try it out and see if it works for me. I wonder if just the "spirit" of it, just making each shot a self-contained shot, is enough to get one 90% there.

 

[RPB Enthusiast]

I realized that I love how Chinese rubbers feels hitting with them. I'm really hoping Dignics 09c does better for me than Zyre-03, but starting the 27th of October, I should be playing with 09c on the forehand, and then making a decision by mid-late February if I'm going back to Skyline 2 Blue Sponge or not. I'm thinking of giving my buddy the Dignics 05 that's cooking with the Dignics 09c since I was planning to give him the T05H, but his loops aren't good enough to fully use T05H so I think D05 being softer will help him with his chopping since he doesn't have power with his loops since he only practices chopping with inverted and long pips OX.

 

[jonol]

Here's where we run into the issue of a lack of framework for describing technique; one guy will say it's about acceleration, and the other guy will say it's about the stiffness of the contact point, another guy will say it's about the stability of the racket angle and so on. One will have the opinion that only the fingers matter, the other will think it's the wrist, the other will say it's the waist and so on.

I see these kind of ideas in fields I'm a SME in and it's really harmful to beginners or even intermediates trying to learn because so much information out there is literally contradictory unless accompanied with more context. Expert opinions often go completely ignored because they don't echo the usual (incorrect) sentiment that tutorial makers and less insightful coaches popularize on the internet, either due to a lack of an empirical basis for statements or because the subject is so difficult to quantify and communicate to beginners because you need to already have expertise to even understand it.

Yeah this is why you just do some multi-ball or vs someone who knows how to block and get repetitions of the technique.

As you get more comfortable you make small adjustments one at a time to improve.

What matters more than any specific 'stiffness at contact' or 'snap your wrist' is the overall level of comfort and repeatability of your shots, which is unique to everyone.

All that said, it's very strange to read this post coming from you considering that you seem to massively overcomplicate everything and when people give you advice that simplifies the approach you will immediately start nitpicking at it and making it way more complex than it is.

Just hit every single ball with the goal of a decent brushing contact and decent power until you start to get a feel for it. Over time you will slowly start to adjust to different incoming shots naturally. It doesn't need to be any more complex than that for quite a while.

 

[Archosaurus]

Yeah this is why you just do some multi-ball or vs someone who knows how to block and get repetitions of the technique.

As you get more comfortable you make small adjustments one at a time to improve.

What matters more than any specific 'stiffness at contact' or 'snap your wrist' is the overall level of comfort and repeatability of your shots, which is unique to everyone.

All that said, it's very strange to read this post coming from you considering that you seem to massively overcomplicate everything and when people give you advice that simplifies the approach you will immediately start nitpicking at it and making it way more complex than it is.

Just hit every single ball with the goal of a decent brushing contact and decent power until you start to get a feel for it. Over time you will slowly start to adjust to different incoming shots naturally. It doesn't need to be any more complex than that for quite a while.

I've been filming mostly everything with my usual partner and analyzing it then coming up with drills to fix the issues. My play level is going up maybe half a division a month right now, so I think it's working.
There's a few guys at my club who can block for 30, 40 shots and that's where I get my fix on that, but I'm really using it more for random ball reading and footwork practice than anything to do with the stroke. I'm also training my partner to block better so we might be able to get 10 on the table soon and get some use out of it.

My experience in coaching beginners and intermediates in another sport is that you can't simplify things, because different skills are different. Why do you think so many people feel they play well in practice but then they're "off" in games? Everyone says it's nerves, but in my experience it's almost completely unrelated and just has to do with lack of skills.

Maybe you don't believe it, but I'm sure that if I did what the forums tell me to do, I'd still not be able to 100% consistently put away high backspin balls or half-long balls to my middle. I wouldn't be able to in a few months, nor in a few years, maybe never, because it's just not the same skill. Feel free to disagree and post your reasoning, though.