Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[jk1980]

watching the first minute i thought "hey, he trained well and now he got his success rate looping up"... and then it went all to shit. I dont think it can be related to stamina if only the first two openings per game work.
You spamming random serves does net help either.
Pick one serve and one location to serve to and stay with it. This will make you learn the variations of receive you can expect from that serve and placement. You could serve long backspin to the lefties middle, which will result in a long push to you middle or forehand. Both positions you can loop with the forehand without much repositioning.

Doing random things in training matches does not improve you at this stage.

 

[Archo]

watching the first minute i thought "hey, he trained well and now he got his success rate looping up"... and then it went all to shit. I dont think it can be related to stamina if only the first two openings per game work.
You spamming random serves does net help either.
Pick one serve and one location to serve to and stay with it. This will make you learn the variations of receive you can expect from that serve and placement. You could serve long backspin to the lefties middle, which will result in a long push to you middle or forehand. Both positions you can loop with the forehand without much repositioning.

Doing random things in training matches does not improve you at this stage.

This advice is incorrect and I'm sure you know it too. There's no point in me serving something that will only give me a popup and just putting them away for an hour. I might as well just set up a punching bag if I'm gonna do that. I prefer to leave it for the competition.

For clarity, we already do multiball how you suggest. "Easy" balls which are supposed to be high %, "hard" balls which we don't know how to hit, random mix of easy and hard etc. The only way we can find out what is what is by coming across them in real situations. There's value to training against both.

Between 3rd ball against a fast and slow, high and low, wide, middle and backhand, moving left and moving right, hitting with spin or with speed, hitting from close to table or far there's about 100 variations of just forehand loop and that's simplifying it. I think it's expected I will miss most of those because I haven't practised most of those. You probably can't hit half of those either judging by you posting in the past that you've almost lost to beginners, so maybe this rang some bells for you too.


EDIT:
In fact from these last few videos and making some notes I've found that my partner lacks the ability to discern heavy back from light back, so we need to practice the push return vs both of those. Isolated just in drills. Not in games. That's not what games are for.

My main issue is when I'm covering the wide forehand and I get a semi-high, half-long light push to the middle of the table, I'm too slow to react to it and don't know the shot to do against it. So I will need to practice multiball first where it's more optimal to hit with FH, then one that drifts towards BH and needs to be hit with BH, and then random variation of those, and ultimately mixing in a more quality receive that I either need to push or slow loop.

EDIT 2:
Looking at the videos more, my success rate with FH loop against pushes more than let's say 5cm to the right and left of the middle line is good, but if they land close to the middle line then I fail almost every time. I'll need to do multi where I get fed an easy ball to the middle and to the sides to see what the difference is. There's something going on there. Most of the time I hit the ball very low on the bat near the label.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

This advice is incorrect and I'm sure you know it too. There's no point in me serving something that will only give me a popup and just putting them away for an hour. I might as well just set up a punching bag if I'm gonna do that. I prefer to leave it for the competition.

I watched Set A. For as often as you say this, there is nothing in your videos that indicates that you would consistently and decisively be putting away points against this particular opponent with a near 100% success rate even if given predictable serve returns. You still struggle and are very inconsistent even against long soft weak returns when given to you, whether you respond aggressively or passively. This idea that you convey that you are so many levels above this opponent is simply not reality, whether you beat him often or not, you have plenty you could work on when practicing with him.


I'm now going to spend more time on this post than is probably worth it but hey I got time today, let's go point by point on the Set A video on when you're serving:

00:10 - good third ball. You get credit for this one. 👍
00:19 - reaching and off balance but it goes on so I'll give credit for this one but you'll see why this approach is problematic over the next several points👍
00:59 - opponent gives you slow long push, your loop misses so badly that it doesn't even reach the net on your side ⛔
1:06 - opponent gives a terribly weak return, you don't move, removing any chance for the bomba that you can allegedly do on call, you poke it back, no credit given but none taken away since you get it on the table
1:40 - opponent gives a terribly long weak and slow return, you hit it straight into the net ⛔
1:50 - same as above, you misjudge the length, don't move, and miss an easy shot ⛔
2:28 - opponent pushes long AGAIN, sure he clips the net, but you were never going to make that shot anyways cause once again you didn't move ⛔
2:38 - long slow push, you don't move, do some weird backhand that misses terribly ⛔
3:05 - once again not moving, sure he gets the net again which you blame, but it's on a ball you likely would've missed anyways, you lose the game, against a player who you supposedly can turn into a punching bag at will⛔
3:30 - you make it, good job. Likely because he pushes slow right into your hitting zone so you don't have to move, which is what causes the problems 👍
3:44 - you get two long pushes, hesitate on one, put the second one right back into the net ⛔
5:03 - you get a long push, don't move and reach as usual leading to an off balance push and miss ⛔
5:11 - catch him with a fast serve, good 👍
5:39 - get a long push, bury it straight in the net yet again ⛔

Don't think I need to keep going, you get the point. The above should illustrate you aren't as automatic as you keep proclaiming to be. And before you follow up with the "I'm going easy on him so that we can play excuse", you would still be able to make those balls on the table consistently but with lower quality if that were the case.

The constant acting like you're so far above this partner, and any evidence of wrongdoing is just you dumbing yourself down to make it possible to practice with him, really needs to stop. Especially when, supposedly, all the higher level players who you can ace all the time just happen to always be unwilling to be recorded 🤔🤔🤔

 

[jk1980]

This advice is incorrect and I'm sure you know it too. There's no point in me serving something that will only give me a popup and just putting them away for an hour. I might as well just set up a punching bag if I'm gonna do that. I prefer to leave it for the competition.

From what can be seen in the forum you are not at the level you think you are. To me it looks like you would not have a high success rate in a very controlled scenario where you exactly know what ball is played to you. Adding the randomness of a match to it will not make you learn anything, because only in a controlled scenario you can make little adjustments against the same ball returned to you to increase quality and success rate. if every ball is totally different you are not learning to improve in any of these.

For clarity, we already do multiball how you suggest. "Easy" balls which are supposed to be high %, "hard" balls which we don't know how to hit, random mix of easy and hard etc. The only way we can find out what is what is by coming across them in real situations. There's value to training against both.

Yes, there is value to training against both, once you are able to master at them at least in an exercise let's say with a 8 out of 10 success rate.

Between 3rd ball against a fast and slow, high and low, wide, middle and backhand, moving left and moving right, hitting with spin or with speed, hitting from close to table or far there's about 100 variations of just forehand loop and that's simplifying it.
I think it's expected I will miss most of those because I haven't practised most of those.

So you just confirm that in the match you get many balls that you never trained against. That is what i am criticising. Exercise against all these types of balls before trying to perform something you clearly cant inside the match.

You probably can't hit half of those either judging by you posting in the past that you've almost lost to beginners, so maybe this rang some bells for you too.

Dude, i think we are mixing up levels here. When i am angry about losing to somebody that is on a level of a beginner, that beginner is still levels above you, honestly. I do indeed struggle against "beginner" serves because i do expect them to have some kind of quality spin and treat them as quality always, even when they don't. This is actually masked when playing better players, because they serve proper spin and don't counter in empty balls, so they will not even notice that they could hurt me with less spin quality.

That leads me to having poor shot selection (pushing instead of looping them), but if that shot selection was not the issue i would be having no issues against these worse players (again this is my judgement of them).

I would even argue that this is something that more experienced players adjust inside a match faster and i do take a few sets for it. Basically storing what spin is achieved by the opponent and adjusting to it quickly. For me it takes sets to change the approach because the internal system to push these balls is too strong and it takes a real effort to overwrite.
This video is a good example of this. These two first "serves" are simply countered in with no backspin, but i default to pushing them expecting at least a little backspin.

Using the wrong stroke for an incoming ball while being quite good enough to execute the stroke when identifying the right ball is very different than not even being able to perform the right stroke in the first place.

This is the fourth set where i start to receive the opponents serve more properly. It is a common thread that i give the opponent a two set lead before i try to turn it around, but that obviously does make everything harder being more exhausted and the like. It of course also takes a little courage to not fall back to the wrong stroke once the right stroke fails at times which can also be seen in this video.

The topic of shot selection is probably one of the biggest issues, but it's hard to train as well, because it happens if a ball comes to my elbow or a little more to the forehand than elbow, i would instinctively use the backhand. i even pivot around the forehand to use backhand sometimes. it's awful, but that's kinda the muscle memory that is hard to overwrite.

We are in a totally different situation here. If there is one thing in table tennis that i am confident in it is topspin vs backspin with the forehand and i do it reliably against unknown opponents in matches (on my level that is).

Here another 4th set (that the opponent who was blocking quite well against my other team mates ) that i probably could have lost if that opponent did more empty serves into my backhand instead of defaulting to an OK'ish backspin serve all the time.

 

[Archo]

@jk1980
@ThePongCommenter

I actually performed an analysis and found out why those errors happen and formulated a training plan to fix them. All you guys are interested in doing is telling me they happen so you can feel good about yourself that you wouldn't make the same error LOL.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

@jk1980
@ThePongCommenter

I actually performed an analysis and found out why those errors happen and formulated a training plan to fix them. All you guys are interested in doing is telling me they happen so you can feel good about yourself that you wouldn't make the same error LOL.

I definitely wouldn't make those same errors against the level of competition you're playing against or even 10 levels above it, LOL.

What I'm really pointing out is the constant excuse-making and refusal to take accountability that continues in your posts, even months later. Whenever someone points out something you aren't doing, there's always a rebuttal: your opponent can't handle it, you're saving it for competition, only higher level players get to experience those shots of yours, you're showing him respect, it's a waste of time to hit those shots, other people don't have good advice and you know better.

That kind of deflection rubs people the wrong way, as has been pointed out to you many times, yet you continue to do it.

A good training plan, like jk mentions, will require you to simplify some things and remove variables until you can do the basics with any consistency. But you know better, so do what you wish...

 

[jk1980]

A good training plan, like jk mentions, will require you to simplify some things and remove variables until you can do the basics with any consistency. But you know better, so do what you wish...

And if we add to this that he is EJ'ing and playing rubbers that he can allegedly activate with 41° sponge hardness then this to me looks like a big mess that is hard to come out of. very demanding rubbers + boosting (which will lead to different throw angles and the like) + not moving for shots + not training shots that happen in a match against a weak opponent is really going to make it hard to improve.

i can totally understand that there is a variety of recommendations by the fellow forum members, but instead of disregarding all, perhaps pick one or two of them and exercise them for a month. I am sure the result will be visible. Playing random matches against low level players gives you really nothing at this time. you might as well just do drills or exercises, because goofing around makes you better at exactly that : goofing around

 

[chandyrandy]

@Archo tbh I think your strokes look fine and forehand looks great when in position, but something I noticed while watching is that you were late or had an indecisiveness on alot of balls. I then saw that you play relatively flat footed with not much hop or bounce. I point this out cause I used to do the same thing and I've seen myself doing the exact same late shots. If you take a look at pro training videos you'll see alot of the time their on the top of their toes to the point where sometimes their heel gets raised. Maybe you're already aware of this but I think it could be a huge factor holding you back as it was for me.

 

[Tyce]

I had a productive night in trying to play my funk off.
First, the obligatory EJ moment trying a different bat, and being severely disappointed by the result. Picking up my main setup and just feeling right with it is great and encouraging.
Second, I spent a fair amount of time trying to play relaxed, spinny shots and getting my grip controlled but loose. My BH success rate shot up very quickly and I improved my FH feeling a bit too.
Third, I was explaining some basic stuff to a new guy, and that always makes me check my own basics too.


It brings me a fresh perspective on how I have been learning to play with a much tighter grip, because the very flexible blade I was using actually needed that in order to get some power behind the ball. Every single blade I have used since is just a lot stiffer (and not even that super stiff) and requires soft hands, a lot.
I won't be changing anything, because I keep reconnecting with my main bat after bad nights.

Also decided I don't like Mercury 2 on the FH at all. The black ones have that plastic sensation much more than the red ones, and I hate that. It feels like premade bats, and bad ones at that.
So the only Chinese FH rubber I actually like is still H3N.

 

[RPB Enthusiast]

@ThePongCommenter @jk1980

Thank you for the good laughs, definitely make my day better. Overall, I think unless we're at the pro level or close to it, then we really don't need to be critiquing professional player's mistakes since most of us here won't be able to be consistent with our gameplay like how they are.

 

[Archo]

@Archo tbh I think your strokes look fine and forehand looks great when in position, but something I noticed while watching is that you were late or had an indecisiveness on alot of balls. I then saw that you play relatively flat footed with not much hop or bounce. I point this out cause I used to do the same thing and I've seen myself doing the exact same late shots. If you take a look at pro training videos you'll see alot of the time their on the top of their toes to the point where sometimes their heel gets raised. Maybe you're already aware of this but I think it could be a huge factor holding you back as it was for me.

Yeah you're right. Today I tried to be more on the ball of the foot and I could attack some fast long serves to the wide forehand better than usual. Played one guy with an insanely illegal, really heavy typical recreational serve where he throws it into the bat, and I was just hitting them down the line behind his back. Last week I was always late to them and I could just block them back, if even.

I'm really late towards balls to the bang-on center of the table for some reason. It's like I have a lag in deciding what to do. It's not like I don't see the ball. In formal matches I have the mentality of "If I don't attack the ball I will lose the point" and I tend to move to them a bit faster, although I'm not sure what my success rate is, it might be similar really, but I'm not sitting there deliberating if I'm gonna push it or attack it at least.

@jk1980

I do pick out a few good suggestions once in a while. It's all welcome. I just don't think masturbating over how good you are or how bad I am is super useful for anyone. I know better than you how I play. I've even told you what the estimated RC is based on who I lose and win against. The only one with a complex about my skill level is people other than me. Next year once I get a RC rating I can DM you guys the admin's details so you can make a formal complaint that it's too high or whatever based on seeing 0.5% of my playtime LOL.

@ThePongCommenter

I'm happy for you if you won't make any mistakes against 1900-2000~ RC players (At least in AU that'd be 10 levels above me), some day I'd like to see you play because you must be very good indeed; but it's not a super useful fact to improve my or my partner's play with. If you're saying that to gain legitimacy to your statements then fair, I'll take it into account.


Ramble time:
I hit a bit more today, working on taking no-spin and really light backspin balls with a more closed angle. For whatever reason I treat them all like backspin and open the angle up which just doesn't work. On wednesday I noticed that my success rate against light backspin is maybe 20% if I open the angle, and 90% if I close it in multiball. My automatic shot is still the open one but I think I can improve it.
Right now it's maybe 30% of the time the good shot and 70% of the time reverting back to the old one. I don't know if that's because of just not having learned the skill yet, or if the incoming ball is forcing me to, probably it doesn't matter ultimately.

Also working on using more legs and core in the backhand and less arm. I can make power on the backhand by winding up the swing to the left and down but it's just not a good system and too slow for rallies. Maybe I'll film some drilling next wednesday or whenever and we can see what the forums think.

EDIT:
@jk1980
Sorry, no time earlier, but I took a look at those videos. What TTR are the players? I'm not very familiar with German ratings and I tend to be pretty off, so I'm just curious.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Ramble time:
I hit a bit more today, working on taking no-spin and really light backspin balls with a more closed angle. For whatever reason I treat them all like backspin and open the angle up which just doesn't work. On wednesday I noticed that my success rate against light backspin is maybe 20% if I open the angle, and 90% if I close it in multiball.

This sounds to me like the issue is more the swing and contact than the racket angle. If the ball is light backspin or no spin you really should be able to spin and hit through it with a relatively open angle and that is the way most advanced players would deal with that ball, unless we have different definitions of open and closed.

Also working on using more legs and core in the backhand and less arm. I can make power on the backhand by winding up the swing to the left and down but it's just not a good system and too slow for rallies. Maybe I'll film some drilling next wednesday or whenever and we can see what the forums think.

You should be working more on the footwork to get in place for the shot and moving between shots, than this. Your feet not repositioning you to the ball and then directly forcing a miss due to reaching or getting jammed is the common theme in all the video I've watched. Working on this at this stage will make your footwork even worse than it already is.

 

[Archo]

This sounds to me like the issue is more the swing and contact than the racket angle. If the ball is light backspin or no spin you really should be able to spin and hit through it with a relatively open angle and that is the way most advanced players would deal with that ball, unless we have different definitions of open and closed.




You should be working more on the footwork to get in place for the shot and moving between shots, than this. Your feet not repositioning you to the ball and then directly forcing a miss due to reaching or getting jammed is the common theme in all the video I've watched. Working on this at this stage will make your footwork even worse than it already is.

Well, the swing is more forward, due to the closed angle. That's probably part of it.

That is true, but I need swing mechanics to hit the ball. Unless you suggest I just move to the ball and let it smack me in the chest.

 

[jonol]

I always find that when I play lower rated players, the most useful thing for both of us is when I simply serve 1-2 serves and consistently attack the return.

I'm working on consistency in attack, they're working on how to make quality receives and to properly block/counter attacks from stronger players.

It's expected that they will lose, but that's the entire point. Giving them shitty serves and half-assed attacks simply robs them of the opportunity to adapt and improve.

 

[Archo]

I always find that when I play lower rated players, the most useful thing for both of us is when I simply serve 1-2 serves and consistently attack the return.

I'm working on consistency in attack, they're working on how to make quality receives and to properly block/counter attacks from stronger players.

It's expected that they will lose, but that's the entire point. Giving them shitty serves and half-assed attacks simply robs them of the opportunity to adapt and improve.

I've been thinking to just do a few sessions mostly serve receive to teach my partner how to receive my serves. I've asked him why he just keeps giving me half-long light balls and he's said he can't read any of them and that's the best he can do, which is fair enough.

 

[barusu]

After trying sp fh for 4 months... I think i will come back to inverted.
Had a session with a clubmate yesterday. He asked me to play with jpen t05. Somehow i could do nasty topspins i could never do before.

Conclusion: if you want to learn how to control tenergy, learn short pips 🤣🤣🤣

 

[blahness]

I always find that when I play lower rated players, the most useful thing for both of us is when I simply serve 1-2 serves and consistently attack the return.

I'm working on consistency in attack, they're working on how to make quality receives and to properly block/counter attacks from stronger players.

It's expected that they will lose, but that's the entire point. Giving them shitty serves and half-assed attacks simply robs them of the opportunity to adapt and improve.

Yep i also do the same thing. Literally, no point wasting time doing countering or loop practice against people who give random balls lol.

 

[jk1980]

@Archo why so you again shift blame to your partner ? You fail to loop many of his receives anyways, so hi receive quality is not the thing you should be thinking about now.
Just do a drill with him where you tell him what you are serving and where you are serving to. even if the receives are too high at first, he can adjust to the serve and receive it lower and lower which makes it a great opportunity to exercise against increasingly difficult balls. just tell him to receive it to the same position all the time. Both of you will benefit from it.
it is not a controlled regular exercise if you let your partner guess what is coming at him.

 

[Archo]

Well luckily the waste of time was 7% of the play session's time, so not much lost. I guess 3/4 of the time we're doing structured drills or multi.

It's a pain in the ass to setup filming in a way where nobody else is in frame every time but we can probably get 10 minutes or so.

This sounds to me like the issue is more the swing and contact than the racket angle. If the ball is light backspin or no spin you really should be able to spin and hit through it with a relatively open angle and that is the way most advanced players would deal with that ball, unless we have different definitions of open and closed.

Oh sorry, I was supposed to reply to this specifically earlier:

10th shot in the video, empty/very little backspin.

Maybe it's a H3 thing but if you open the angle too much while driving into it, all you'll get is a really fast, decently spinny shot that flies right off the end. Something closer to the angle in 9th shot, heavy backspin.

To me that 45deg~ angle feels really closed and like it's not gonna make it over the net, but my consistency only tripled after I tried it, so...

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Well luckily the waste of time was 7% of the play session's time, so not much lost. I guess 3/4 of the time we're doing structured drills or multi.

It's a pain in the ass to setup filming in a way where nobody else is in frame every time but we can probably get 10 minutes or so.



Oh sorry, I was supposed to reply to this specifically earlier:

10th shot in the video, empty/very little backspin.

Maybe it's a H3 thing but if you open the angle too much while driving into it, all you'll get is a really fast, decently spinny shot that flies right off the end. Something closer to the angle in 9th shot, heavy backspin.

To me that 45deg~ angle feels really closed and like it's not gonna make it over the net, but my consistency only tripled after I tried it, so...

Oh a 45 degree angle isn't what I'd consider closed at all so yeah good that it's working for you. I also don't think 40/41 H3 is at all appropriate for where your game is at right now but everyone has their own opinions on equipment. I know for sure none of the coaches I know would start a beginner on that hard of Hurricane.