Help with beating my friend

[VinceG]

Hello people.

I have introduced myself on this thread and am on a quest to beat my mate more often than he beats me.

He is a very good defensive chopper and I have been playing and learning the attacking game at Heckmondwyke table tennis centre where the "Dewsbury and District" league have their headquarters.

In my quest to improve I have also bought a table and robot and installed it into my double garage for practice.

So my question is this, what should I practice with the robot? It's a reasonable one that you would normally pay about £600.00 UK pounds for.

Thanks in anticipation.

Regards
Vince

 

[Iczy]

In order to beat someone, you need to know your own strength and weakness along with your opponent's.
A match video, when viewed without bias, can help a lot. You can then devise a training program with your robot to address your weaknesses and augment your strength.

 

[MDanielCRO]

Hello people.

I have introduced myself on this thread and am on a quest to beat my mate more often than he beats me.

He is a very good defensive chopper and I have been playing and learning the attacking game at Heckmondwyke table tennis centre where the "Dewsbury and District" league have their headquarters.

In my quest to improve I have also bought a table and robot and installed it into my double garage for practice.

So my question is this, what should I practice with the robot? It's a reasonable one that you would normally pay about £600.00 UK pounds for.

Thanks in anticipation.

Regards
Vince

If your friend is defensive player, you should pracitice a lot your forehand, practice with hard backspin balls and try to loop them with a lot of spin, and topspin balls with more speed, and you need to practice short pushing on hard backspin balls too, but it's more important to practice with real partner than robot.

 

[Der_Echte]

Love your dedication to the mission. Get with the coach at your club to show you what is useful to do with the robot. Robots are good for giving same ball over and over, so it is good for practicing a shot vs a know spin/speed/depth. It might force you to use footwork too. Using a robot can help if you use it right, but you could also be practicing thee wrong stroke over and over and when a coach or knowledgeable player doesn't catch that, it gets real ingrained into your shot, so that is something to consider.

 

[VinceG]

In order to beat someone, you need to know your own strength and weakness along with your opponent's.
A match video, when viewed without bias, can help a lot. You can then devise a training program with your robot to address your weaknesses and augment your strength.

There's no way I could video the match, he'd smell a rat!

If your friend is defensive player, you should pracitice a lot your forehand, practice with hard backspin balls and try to loop them with a lot of spin, and topspin balls with more speed, and you need to practice short pushing on hard backspin balls too, but it's more important to practice with real partner than robot.

Yes, that's what I'm practicing, but I'm missing more than him.

Love your dedication to the mission. Get with the coach at your club to show you what is useful to do with the robot. Robots are good for giving same ball over and over, so it is good for practicing a shot vs a know spin/speed/depth. It might force you to use footwork too. Using a robot can help if you use it right, but you could also be practicing thee wrong stroke over and over and when a coach or knowledgeable player doesn't catch that, it gets real ingrained into your shot, so that is something to consider.

I have been having some private coaching too… yes dedication to the cause… I don't like loosing to my mate ;-) and have asked my coach to see if he can fit me in for an hour tomorrow.

One of the other problems I have too… is that my serves can be "too good". What I mean by that is that I play a good serve, with a lot of spin, he returns it, and I miss the "third ball" it is really frustrating

 

[vvk1]

@VinceG: Does your friend ever initiate an attack himself? Or is he content to just keep the ball on the table, letting you do all the hard work (and mistakes)?

In the latter case, try using simple serves. Sometimes just alternating between simple short and long no-spin serves can be quite effective against defenders. Such serves have no spin, so the defender has to create the spin himself, all the time making sure he does not pop up the ball, etc. Often, the return will have far less spin than when you start with your "good" spinny serve, and it turn will be far easier to attack for yourself.

 

[VinceG]

@VinceG: Does your friend ever initiate an attack himself? Or is he content to just keep the ball on the table, letting you do all the hard work (and mistakes)?

That's exactly what he does, in fact, if I give him a golden opportunity to hit a smash with topspin, he invariably misses it, but I don't want to keep doing that because he'll learn the shot ;-)

In the latter case, try using simple serves. Sometimes just alternating between simple short and long no-spin serves can be quite effective against defenders. Such serves have no spin, so the defender has to create the spin himself, all the time making sure he does not pop up the ball, etc. Often, the return will have far less spin than when you start with your "good" spinny serve, and it turn will be far easier to attack for yourself.

Thanks vvk1 I'll give that a try. I must admit, doing a top spin serve has made him pop the ball up for me to attack on occasions.

 

[TTournaments]

My useful tactic against defenders is to keep playing topspin on and on again( very safe and slow ones) but always changing the placement like:
1. Fast serve in BH
2. Slow topspin in wide Fh
3. Another one into FH
4. Changing to the BH
5. Going back to the FH

Most of the time you're already having the point. Just play wide angles and on the body.
But the collection of shots above is just an example.

 

[vvk1]

That's exactly what he does, in fact, if I give him a golden opportunity to hit a smash with topspin, he invariably misses it, but I don't want to keep doing that because he'll learn the shot ;-)


Thanks vvk1 I'll give that a try. I must admit, doing a top spin serve has made him pop the ball up for me to attack on occasions.

Let us know how you get on. You can also try a bit of extra variation - pretend you're doing your normal top spin serve, but put as little top spin as possible. In other words, defenders hate variation - if you can make your serves/shots look similar but have different amounts of spin on them, then their job becomes much harder as they now have to adjust all the time.

 

[VinceG]

Cheers guys, I'll keep you posted.


iPhone Tapatalk

 

[Der_Echte]

Your serves should have a purpose - to set you up to control opponents' options and get you a ball to initiate the offense. Hundreds of ways to serve out there. Basic concept is on short serves is to control depth and height, to get back a ball you like or be fast deep sudden to get you more time to open vs the long return. Whatever you do, you must be able to create every possible spin from the same service motion. This allows you to manipulate, and hopefully now or later, to be able to deceive opponent on the type or amount of spin. Vs the better players, all you can really hope for is to limit their return to something manageable. It helps if you can have good loose wrist and fast slice impact to BE ABLE to generate max spin. It isn't the max spin that helps you, but being able to do that max spin helps you out when you give opponent a LIGHT spin or KNUCKLE ball that looks heavy. These serves give you the easiest ball to finish if you SOLD it right.

At the lower levels, I cannot tell you how many free points I got from serving 1st ball heavy, get a long push I looped heavy and won, then next serve took away the spin and watched opponent hit it long!

It takes a lot of practice to develop the timing and touch to make good serves, it will never happen on one night, one week, maybe not even one month of daily practice. I improved a full level in one year totally out of the sport, but was able to hit a few serves alone for THREE minutes a day 5 days a week. The same improvement can be had if you have a good server who lets you try to return their serves.

Luckily, if you have a robot and net, it is easy to practice serves by yourself. The internet era is upon us and it is way easier to get inspiration for serves and a guide.

 

[Der_Echte]

One serve I did at Div 3 level was to do a short, low cut serve and as soon as I impact the ball, flip the racket and wrist over like it was a topspin. I cannot tell you how many div 5, div 4, and div 3 opponents closed their bat angle thinking it was topspin or knuckle and ended up putting that ball into the net! At div 2 and div 1 level, few opponents would put that ball into the net, they read the spin too good, but many would hesitate just enough on that serve to give me a long return, which I was ready for that and could make a strong opening shot that often won the point.

 

[VinceG]

Thanks for the tips @Der_Echte do you have a video of the serve you mention? I will definitely work on my serving game with the coach.

 

[Der_Echte]

I vid I took a year ago in Korea vs a lefty penhold Korean club owner Natl Div 2 level. He did the fake topspin serve to me at 2:18 and 3:00, I saw them both, played the first one better. You see him give a medium cut serve, but flip over with wrist to make it look like it is topspin serve. You try to push it, then you pop it up and out or high for easy finish. You try to touch block it back, ball still goes long and you get attacked. You attack that fake topspin serve and you are in control. You get your opponent to mis-read the degree of spin, you are going places.

You will see most of points I got were from serves or blocks. Dude is a better player than me by far. I did a few heavy cut serves that looked light. I did a few light serves that looked heavy cut and it gave me chances to attack, even if I missed a couple, it still set me up well. The thing about serves is making it look different than it is. That is the trick part of serving. That club owner could defeat me even if he give me a 3 point handicap per game. Still, a lot of my serves were still good vs his level, which is 2 levels better than me. I failed as he was much better in all areas of the game. Plus, that joker is a LEFTY PENHOLDER haha, Korea has a lot of good evil lefty penholders bless them all.

 

[VinceG]

Thanks for that Der_Echte that was great. I'll practice that tonight when I'm at the club.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The bottom line on this, really, is, you keep practicing and you get better. There is a lot of good info already given in this thread. Over time you get to know your buddy's game and you figure out how to play against him. But, you also just get better over time. There may be periods where you feel like your game is staying the same. But if you keep playing consistently and working on all aspects of your game, you get better. And playing the matches will hopefully help you get better at the game strategy aspect of the game.

The best serves are not the ones that just take the point outright. Those can get you in trouble when they start coming back and you are just expecting them to not come back. This is particularly the case as a match progresses. If you are using serves where you are trying to win a point outright, as the match progresses the opponent starts getting them on the table more and more, and then you have a harder time getting those points. The best serves set your attack up so you can control the point. This is why the pros use short serves so much of the time.

 

[VinceG]

Thanks for that Carl. I have found that I miss the third ball when my friend returns my heavily spinning serve. It's so annoying. I'm sure I'll get the measure of him and will be reporting here that he's "packing it in" or, will he be joining here and reading my threads? I think not, he's a bit of a luddite when it comes to computers and stuff ;-) He's not even got a Facebook account

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Thanks for that Carl. I have found that I miss the third ball when my friend returns my heavily spinning serve. It's so annoying. I'm sure I'll get the measure of him and will be reporting here that he's "packing it in" or, will he be joining here and reading my threads? I think not, he's a bit of a luddite when it comes to computers and stuff ;-) He's not even got a Facebook account

This is a question that may be important. What type of rubbers is he using? Is he using conventional rubbers or is he using anti-spin or long pips?

If he is using anti-spin or long pips, trying to serve with heavy spin could be more like a suicide mission. It is not hard to return heavy spin with those rubbers and you give the other person what ever they gave you in reverse. So if you give him a topspin serve, he will give you backspin regardless of what he does with his racket. If you give him backspin, he will give you top, regardless of what he does with his racket. The more spin you give him, the more spin will come back because it is your spin. Perhaps try giving him short serves with very little spin and fast serves with only a little spin.

If he is using long pips or anti-spin, you need to understand how they work.

 

[Der_Echte]

As much as I power smash the high returns from my topsin serve like ripping off someone's neck and defecating down what is left of him... and as much as I can make a really heavy underspin serve that gets returned into the net... Those serves are definitely NOT my best serve. My best serve is a change-up knuckleball.

Yes, no-spin is my best serve? Why? So many opponents mis-read it even slightly and it sets up my attack or makes their receive less effective. HOW do I do it? I need to establish a HEAVY underspin serve to show that with that fast motion, opponent is likely to get a VERY spinny cut serve. First time he sees it, it often goes into net. I allow them to get used to it, then later PULL THE CARPET out from under them by showing the same serve motion, but take away almost all the spin. Sure, there is a little underspin, but the difference is so huge, the serve is practically a knuckle ball. If opponents attack it, ball often goes out, if opponents try to bump it short, it goes high.

By far, taking off spin and using LESS spin is the most effective serve.

When you get to a certain level, you simply do not get away with a loose serve and they get punished, so you have to keep evolving your serves and look for ideas. You have to constantly improve how low over the net and control of depth and placement. You have to learn how to keep changing up the serve, not just type, but tempo. There is nothing like a fast, deep serve breaking away to players BH or crossover when he is expecting a short serve.

At higher levels, you rarely get an outright point from serve, so the name of the game is damage control. You serve in a way to prevent or limit opponents' attacks, which puts you in a position to dictate who and how the offense begins. That is your main objective at that level as Carl rightfully explained.

If you have a problem continuing attack after a spinny serve, there are a couple things you can do...

1) do the same serve and serve motion, but take off spin, leaving everything else the same, keep ball low. This will often give you a longer ball to attack. You are ready, you have more time, and since you are ready, you likely have more confidence, so you may have more effectiveness.

2) get someone to learn how to return your spinny serve, then keep feeding him that spinny serve, allow him to return, then learn a way to anticipate and attack. It takes time, but you'll learn.

 

[VinceG]

This is a question that may be important. What type of rubbers is he using? Is he using conventional rubbers or is he using anti-spin or long pips?

If he is using anti-spin or long pips, trying to serve with heavy spin could be more like a suicide mission. It is not hard to return heavy spin with those rubbers and you give the other person what ever they gave you in reverse. So if you give him a topspin serve, he will give you backspin regardless of what he does with his racket. If you give him backspin, he will give you top, regardless of what he does with his racket. The more spin you give him, the more spin will come back because it is your spin. Perhaps try giving him short serves with very little spin and fast serves with only a little spin.

If he is using long pips or anti-spin, you need to understand how they work.

I've got these rubbers and a carbon / balsa blade , but my friend has a £10.00 dunlop one that he bought from a sports shop.

This is the one my friend has http://www.sportsdirect.com/dunlop-black-storm-power-table-tennis-bat-777038

As much as I power smash the high returns from my topsin serve like ripping off someone's neck and defecating down what is left of him... and as much as I can make a really heavy underspin serve that gets returned into the net... Those serves are definitely NOT my best serve. My best serve is a change-up knuckleball.

Yes, no-spin is my best serve? Why? So many opponents mis-read it even slightly and it sets up my attack or makes their receive less effective. HOW do I do it? I need to establish a HEAVY underspin serve to show that with that fast motion, opponent is likely to get a VERY spinny cut serve. First time he sees it, it often goes into net. I allow them to get used to it, then later PULL THE CARPET out from under them by showing the same serve motion, but take away almost all the spin. Sure, there is a little underspin, but the difference is so huge, the serve is practically a knuckle ball. If opponents attack it, ball often goes out, if opponents try to bump it short, it goes high.

By far, taking off spin and using LESS spin is the most effective serve.

When you get to a certain level, you simply do not get away with a loose serve and they get punished, so you have to keep evolving your serves and look for ideas. You have to constantly improve how low over the net and control of depth and placement. You have to learn how to keep changing up the serve, not just type, but tempo. There is nothing like a fast, deep serve breaking away to players BH or crossover when he is expecting a short serve.

At higher levels, you rarely get an outright point from serve, so the name of the game is damage control. You serve in a way to prevent or limit opponents' attacks, which puts you in a position to dictate who and how the offense begins. That is your main objective at that level as Carl rightfully explained.

If you have a problem continuing attack after a spinny serve, there are a couple things you can do...

1) do the same serve and serve motion, but take off spin, leaving everything else the same, keep ball low. This will often give you a longer ball to attack. You are ready, you have more time, and since you are ready, you likely have more confidence, so you may have more effectiveness.

2) get someone to learn how to return your spinny serve, then keep feeding him that spinny serve, allow him to return, then learn a way to anticipate and attack. It takes time, but you'll learn.

Yes, the best way for me to learn is by keeping going to Heckmondwyke and continually playing against better players.

I never really play a serve without spin. I thought it would just get punished. I tend to play a lot short with lots of backspin so that my opponent can't outright attack me. With the occasional topspin serve to the forehand when I'm doing the same movement as if to play short to the backhand.