My Butterfly Dignics 09C Review: Why I think that most amateur players should avoid it

[boretennis]

@victormanriquey - What a great thread. I've not read it all, but it's got to be the best engaged thread we've had for a long time!

Even if I disagree with you to a certain extent

i think @victormanriquey is a very good & valueable addition to the forum in general

 

[victormanriquey]

Threads start to heal when Gozo enters the chat 🙏🏽 thank you for restoring balance Mr Avatar

I agree, he is amazing

i think @victormanriquey is a very good & valueable addition to the forum in general

Thanks!! Much appreciated ❤️

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Threads start to heal when Gozo enters the chat 🙏🏽 thank you for restoring balance Mr Avatar

I am with the force, the force is with me…

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

But but but please indulge me, let me say something personal.

Spoiler: Serious G mode ON

After using Z03 of fh for two months, yesterday I went back to Dignic05. Sad to say, what was once a wow rubber has became meh rubber. Butterfly truly know how to spoil us.

 

[victormanriquey]

After using Z03 of fh for two months, yesterday I went back to Dignic05. Sad to say, what was once a wow rubber has became meh rubber. Butterfly truly know how to spoil us.

@Gozo Calderano Would love to hear a detailed review of the process towards the change

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

@Gozo Calderano Would love to hear a detailed review of the process towards the change

This was me a long time ago ( two years ago) and on this occassion, I was using a 10.5mm one ply hinoki monster with MX-P, the only idiot I know using such a crazy set-up.

But then, due to influence of forum and many collectively that says MX-P has a major drawback, that is, it loses its moojo after a month or two, therefore I did not continue with MX-P. For the uninitiated, MX-P is the grand-daddy of super trampoline ultra boing-boing rubber. I did not touch MX-P ever since until Zyre came out.

I was sold on Z03 feature:
1, Super boing-boing ( thin topsheet with ultra thick sponge )
2, 40% more lasting than Dignics which was suppose to be an improvement from Tenergy series. I was sold on the ricosheet tech thingy.
3, I had always love boing-boing rubber. Never like those brushy-brushy rubber like H3 or D09C et al.

So, here I am, using Z03 and luvin those ultra boing-boing feelin on me fh.

 

[victormanriquey]

View attachment 40781
This was me a long time ago ( two years ago) and on this occassion, I was using a 10.5mm one ply hinoki monster with MX-P, the only idiot I know using such a crazy set-up.

But then, due to influence of forum and many collectively that says MX-P has a major drawback, that is, it loses its moojo after a month or two, therefore I did not continue with MX-P. For the uninitiated, MX-P is the grand-daddy of super trampoline ultra boing-boing rubber. I did not touch MX-P ever since until Zyre came out.

I was sold on Z03 feature:
1, Super boing-boing ( thin topsheet with ultra thick sponge )
2, 40% more lasting than Dignics which was suppose to be an improvement from Tenergy series. I was sold on the ricosheet tech thingy.
3, I had always love boing-boing rubber. Never like those brushy-brushy rubber like H3 or D09C et al.

So, here I am, using Z03 and luvin those ultra boing-boing feelin on me fh.

Hahahaha thanks! As always, your stories are brilliant. I'm in the brushy-sticky cult, and as such, I cant indulge in the boing-boing ways of doing (I do ocassionally, strictly business of course), but I must say, you definitely must have broken a couple balls during that day on the video after that serious smacking 😂

My friend Ernesto played with MXP before, and he smacked just like you, it hurts on your body man, I thought it was ping pong not paintball 😂

 

[maxtor]

Spin is not everything. Crisp and fast counters are easier to activate with carbon. But it's a good advice, if you live in Europe close to Sweden

 

[victormanriquey]

Spin is not everything. Crisp and fast counters are easier to activate with carbon. But it's a good advice, if you live in Europe close to Sweden

Yes it is true that a carbon blade is good for that, it's not easy to do, but if you can do it, it's quite rewarding!

But yeah the stiga shop must be fun!

 

[Robin0910]

And Timo Boll does recommend D09c for beginners, going so far as to describe 09c as the "only rubber for all players" in his official review, soooooo

That said, Franziska isn't recommending H3 for beginners either so that has little to do with the discussion on this thread.

He never said he wouldn‘t recommend H3 for beginners, that’s your assumption.
You need to write something like “you’re sure he wouldn’t” or “probably wouldn‘t” as next Nextlevel did.
Also, Boll literally changed to D05 because he said he didn’t have enough power to fully utilise D09c anymore. What does that say to you? Would a developing beginner kid have more power than Timo currently?

 

[ThePongCommenter]

He never said he wouldn‘t recommend H3 for beginners, that’s your assumption.
You need to write something like “you’re sure he wouldn’t” or “probably wouldn‘t” as next Nextlevel did.
Also, Boll literally changed to D05 because he said he didn’t have enough power to fully utilise D09c anymore. What does that say to you? Would a developing beginner kid have more power than Timo currently?

I think you are missing the point. I am not advocating 09c for beginners especially uncoached ones. Everyone knows that harder rubbers are more technically and physically demanding to use.

But I am saying that if you think 09c is not suitable for beginners because it is hard and demanding of good technique then you must also think H3 is not suitable for beginners. Why? Because it is hard and the most technically demanding rubber in the world. I thought I made my point pretty clear multiple times throughout this thread - neither 09c nor H3 are optimal for beginners.

 

[NextLevel]

He never said he wouldn‘t recommend H3 for beginners, that’s your assumption.
You need to write something like “you’re sure he wouldn’t” or “probably wouldn‘t” as next Nextlevel did.
Also, Boll literally changed to D05 because he said he didn’t have enough power to fully utilise D09c anymore. What does that say to you? Would a developing beginner kid have more power than Timo currently?

A developing kid wouldn't be playing against the quality of Timo Boll's opponents. Groth changed to Primorac Carbon + 2*D09c and Boll followed him for a bit - was it because they both lacked power? Dima couldn't use Hurricane 3 when he tested it for the brief period he was coached by Persson because he lacked power?

The main point that is still being missed is that developing a player is not necessarily the same thing as giving the player the equipment that they will perform best on. Also, just because a player doesn't play the "correct way" with a rubber doesn't mean his style cannot be effective as long as the rubber enables it (which opens the question of what does the beginner. All of which is to say that whenever people say that a rubber is good or bad, there are assumptions that need to be explored and then you can see if the assumptions apply to you. Is it really true that uncoached players develop worse habits using 09c than using a softer sponge rubber? And is it true that when teaching a player, the fact that D09c has a spring effect that makes it faster than unboosted Hurricane and a throw angle that is high makes it so different from boosted or unboosted Hurricane for a beginner that the dynamic of training a beginner on either is massively different?

"And if you are specifically looking for a hard tacky FH rubber, I'd then recommend the Hurricane 3 Neo which in my opinion plays better than 09c on the FH, so have a look at this blogpost!"

That's the crux of what started this discussion on this path. I understand why he feels the way he feels, but I think his recommendation speaks more to his biases than the realities of the difficulties of using both. And no, he is not recommending it to a beginner. But one should realize that lots of beginners are being developed on something *like* 09c, usually H3.

 

[victormanriquey]

I am not advocating 09c for beginners especially uncoached ones. Everyone knows that harder rubbers are more technically and physically demanding to use.

I agree to this indeed for most uncoached beginners, same by the way with H3N for that matter.

But I am saying that if you think 09c is not suitable for beginners because it is hard and demanding of good technique then you must also think H3 is not suitable for beginners. Why? Because it is hard and the most technically demanding rubber in the world. I thought I made my point pretty clear multiple times throughout this thread - neither 09c nor H3 are optimal for beginners.

And no, he is not recommending it to a beginner. But one should realize that lots of beginners are being developed on something *like* 09c, usually H3.

I think Next Level and Pongcommer explain the point here well, I have a section on my blogpost that clearly mentions 'However, this rubber might not be for you', where I explain that for uncoached beginners (and a couple other scenarios), it is not the most recommended thing to do.

The main point that is still being missed is that developing a player is not necessarily the same thing as giving the player the equipment that they will perform best on

I would like to however, zoom into this point of @NextLevel because I agree that indeed is something that is very important. This is indeed my story, because I started with H3 in my first club coming as a total beginner (where my bias comes from, I'm okey to say it, I'm for sure biased like all of us are, that's fine! ), plus it has always been my personal philosophy (I do it differently for the people I coach) that I'm doing things for the long term, not for optimising my current level to its best performance, I believe in the journey, more than in the short term goals, and I'm okey to lose today if I win tomorrow more. Nowadays, I'm so used to H3N and how it plays, that my technique has also been the technique for the rubber, I cannot just purely brush like some other people do (which is also fine btw), I enjoy playing like this but not everybody will.

And to reiterate where we come from, I think the main point of disagreement of this thread is in the question: Why H3N yes, and 09c no? They are similar, so surely both should be okey?

And here is where I have my opinion and many people have others. My main foundational points for the opinion I have are based around throw angle, built-in catapult and price. This is for the FH by the way. For the backhand, as I said, I enjoyed the throw angle, and catapult in certain situations (i.e opening loops, flicks) but I did not enjoy the rubber as much on other situations + the price still stands.

 

[NextLevel]

I agree to this indeed for most uncoached beginners, same by the way with H3N for that matter.


I think Next Level and Pongcommer explain the point here well, I have a section on my blogpost that clearly mentions 'However, this rubber might not be for you', where I explain that for uncoached beginners (and a couple other scenarios), it is not the most recommended thing to do.

I would like to however, zoom into this point of @NextLevel because I agree that indeed is something that is very important. This is indeed my story, because I started with H3 in my first club coming as a total beginner (where my bias comes from, I'm okey to say it, I'm for sure biased like all of us are, that's fine! ), plus it has always been my personal philosophy (I do it differently for the people I coach) that I'm doing things for the long term, not for optimising my current level to its best performance, I believe in the journey, more than in the short term goals, and I'm okey to lose today if I win tomorrow more. Nowadays, I'm so used to H3N and how it plays, that my technique has also been the technique for the rubber, I cannot just purely brush like some other people do (which is also fine btw), I enjoy playing like this but not everybody will.

And to reiterate where we come from, I think the main point of disagreement of this thread is in the question: Why H3N yes, and 09c no? They are similar, so surely both should be okey?

And here is where I have my opinion and many people have others. My main foundational points for the opinion I have are based around throw angle, built-in catapult and price. This is for the FH by the way. For the backhand, as I said, I enjoyed the throw angle, and catapult in certain situations (i.e opening loops, flicks) but I did not enjoy the rubber as much on other situations + the price still stands.

We agree on the price. The throw and the catapult, not so much. But that is why we have these discussions.

 

[victormanriquey]

We agree on the price. The throw and the catapult, not so much. But that is why we have these discussions.

Yeah, which are excellent discussions to have, especially for those who will later on come to this forum to check and inform themselves.

For the throw and catapult, I mainly refer to the FH here, backhand as mentioned was not as bad, in fact, sometimes I preferred this to other rubbers. But for the FH, I (personal preference) create my power and arc from the body (I drop my arm very relaxed when I loop and 'wipe the butt', then hit-brush 70/30 approx on normal topspin, against backspin more like 50/50), so I like a very linear rubber where I always know what to expect, the more predictable the better, and with a medium throw.

So this is where I don't enjoy 09c, as it adds extra throw that I don't benefit from, in fact the opposite as it forces me to adjust my technique (so I miss more, lose feeling and confidence), which is then reinforced by the fact that I overshoot more often due to the strong catapult at high speed swings, which only decreases more the points won, feeling and confidence.

 

[NetProphet]

I would have thought that this entire thread be summed up in 'D09C is too hard for beginners, the end'.
I don't mean to sound dismissive or bitter or something when I say this but I am absolutely surprised that D09c being too hard for beginners has generated 11 pages of writing here. It's too much for me to read and catch up on but while I fully believe D09c is too hard for beginners (particularly to obtain maximum spin) it is interesting that millions of kids in China are started with rubbers that share a similar(ish) profile.
Maybe boosting D09c is the key, if you can then control the speed, as I assume most Chinese rubbers are boosted.

Can it be said that there are rubbers to suit playstyles across cultures?
And China has its unique cultural playstyle/trained technique that works with hard tacky rubber and most other countries (thinking national organisations here) train their kids with softer ESN rubbers because Sweden and Germany for example don't train or produce players in the same mould as China?
This is not specific to D09c of course as my thinking encapsulates many different rubbers, so perhaps this needs its own thread if it's a valid thought, but humouring me for a minute, is there any merit in what I'm thinking or am I talking chocolate?

 

[Matteones]

I would have thought that this entire thread be summed up in 'D09C is too hard for beginners, the end'.
I don't mean to sound dismissive or bitter or something when I say this but I am absolutely surprised that D09c being too hard for beginners has generated 11 pages of writing here. It's too much for me to read and catch up on but while I fully believe D09c is too hard for beginners (particularly to obtain maximum spin) it is interesting that millions of kids in China are started with rubbers that share a similar(ish) profile.
Maybe boosting D09c is the key, if you can then control the speed, as I assume most Chinese rubbers are boosted.

Can it be said that there are rubbers to suit playstyles across cultures?
And China has its unique cultural playstyle/trained technique that works with hard tacky rubber and most other countries (thinking national organisations here) train their kids with softer ESN rubbers because Sweden and Germany for example don't train or produce players in the same mould as China?
This is not specific to D09c of course as my thinking encapsulates many different rubbers, so perhaps this needs its own thread if it's a valid thought, but humouring me for a minute, is there any merit in what I'm thinking or am I talking chocolate?

I have asked myself the same and I think the answer may be as simple as: good hurricane 3 was quite unavailable until some years ago to anyone who wasn't chinese.
In recent years we are seeing more and more non-chinese pros using hurricane 3 on forehand (I'm thinking quite many Korean and Japanese national players, and even Nicholas Lum and the austrian guy whose name escapes me at the moment), some promising juniors are using it too in Europe and elsewhere.

More and more of "the good hurricane" is quite easily available and being the rubber that it is (cheap, good, durable, a bit DIY) I think it is on the rise.
Let's not forget the hugely popular dignics 09C was the butterfly answer (copy?) to Hurricane's superiority in certain aspects of the game. I suspect it plays like a very well boosted H3 38-39 degrees - while costing 3 times as much. (I say suspect because I haven't tried extensively, just a bit, and I'm a noob on H3 too, I have recently switched to H3)

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah, which are excellent discussions to have, especially for those who will later on come to this forum to check and inform themselves.

For the throw and catapult, I mainly refer to the FH here, backhand as mentioned was not as bad, in fact, sometimes I preferred this to other rubbers. But for the FH, I (personal preference) create my power and arc from the body (I drop my arm very relaxed when I loop and 'wipe the butt', then hit-brush 70/30 approx on normal topspin, against backspin more like 50/50), so I like a very linear rubber where I always know what to expect, the more predictable the better, and with a medium throw.

So this is where I don't enjoy 09c, as it adds extra throw that I don't benefit from, in fact the opposite as it forces me to adjust my technique (so I miss more, lose feeling and confidence), which is then reinforced by the fact that I overshoot more often due to the strong catapult at high speed swings, which only decreases more the points won, feeling and confidence.

There are growing pains adjusting to just about any rubber especially after having used a specific one for a long time. All it takes is for people to play at a speed where your defense or off the table feels rushed with H3 and then suddenly, the tradeoffs come back into consideration. One of the biggest benefits of H3 was the ability to push any serve short, then counter attack after the popup. But even DHS have played around with H3 a little giving it a bit less tack because of the plastic ball's speed requirements. That said, linearity is something I treasure in a rubber too, in addition to testing some DHS rubbers, I had also tried Nexy Karis and Nexy Tibhar MX-K, rubbers without huge catapult or spin which played very linear and what you got was what you put in. Maybe if I was still young and sprightly, I would use those rubbers but the only lesson I have learned in table tennis is that there is no single correct answer lol to solving any problem, some answers are just not as good as the game gets faster and your athletic ability becomes more challenged.

 

[NextLevel]

I would have thought that this entire thread be summed up in 'D09C is too hard for beginners, the end'.
I don't mean to sound dismissive or bitter or something when I say this but I am absolutely surprised that D09c being too hard for beginners has generated 11 pages of writing here. It's too much for me to read and catch up on but while I fully believe D09c is too hard for beginners (particularly to obtain maximum spin) it is interesting that millions of kids in China are started with rubbers that share a similar(ish) profile.
Maybe boosting D09c is the key, if you can then control the speed, as I assume most Chinese rubbers are boosted.

Can it be said that there are rubbers to suit playstyles across cultures?
And China has its unique cultural playstyle/trained technique that works with hard tacky rubber and most other countries (thinking national organisations here) train their kids with softer ESN rubbers because Sweden and Germany for example don't train or produce players in the same mould as China?
This is not specific to D09c of course as my thinking encapsulates many different rubbers, so perhaps this needs its own thread if it's a valid thought, but humouring me for a minute, is there any merit in what I'm thinking or am I talking chocolate?

It can be that straightforward yes, but table tennis is not a straightforward sport. Again, I go back to the question of how you want to develop a beginner. One of the things it is easy to forget is that most beginners who start as kids develop technique that they grow with, but when you try to teach adults the exact same technique, some adults can't pick it up because some of it is just not intuitive. Also, amateurs express themselves in various ways. A lot of this discussion is in part to tease out what the assumptions underlying the claim that "D09c is too hard for beginners" are based on (no coaching, a player who is going to just mess around and win points without training, a player who wants easy speed and spin) and then ask whether it applies to many people who use H3 or cheaper harder rubbers like PF4 in China (no coaching and just messing around) and then see whether it is really about playing level or *price*.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

View attachment 40781
This was me a long time ago ( two years ago) and on this occassion, I was using a 10.5mm one ply hinoki monster with MX-P, the only idiot I know using such a crazy set-up.

Out of LOL, I uploaded the above reel to Chapgpt and asked it to comment.

Spoiler: Chatgpt's comment:

I pulled frames from your reel and studied the sequence. The camera angle is good enough to read the mechanics. The short verdict first:

Yes — the stroke you described earlier is real. It is not imagination.
Your forehand is indeed a body-driven loop-drive with late acceleration.

Now let’s dissect what the video actually shows.

---

1. The stroke starts from the ground​

Before the racket moves, your right leg loads.

Your stance shows:

• slight squat
• weight on right leg
• left foot ready to step or pivot

This confirms the power chain begins from the floor, not the arm.

floor → right leg push → hip rotation

That’s already a good sign.

Many club players start with the shoulder instead.

---

2. The waist fires before the arm​

In the contact sequence, the torso rotates first.
The arm follows.

This creates a small lag between torso and racket.

That lag is what produces the snap acceleration you described as the whip feeling.

It’s not actually the wrist whipping.
It’s the torso dragging the arm through space.

---

3. The contact is forward-driven​

The racket path is not a big vertical brush.

It is:

low → forward → slightly upward

That’s a loop-drive trajectory, not a pure spin loop.

This is why the ball you described behaves like:

• flat trajectory
• penetrates forward
• sometimes skids after bounce

---

4. Your follow-through confirms the intention​

Your follow-through goes forward across the body, not straight up.

Brush loop players finish high above the head.

Your finish travels toward the opponent first, then across.

That is typical of a drive loop used to finish weak pushes.

---

5. The recovery step is automatic​

After contact you automatically:

• shift weight back
• prepare for the next forehand

That’s a very interesting habit.

It means your brain already treats the stroke as part of a two-ball pattern, not a single swing.

---

What your forehand actually is​

After watching the reel and comparing with your descriptions, the closest classification is:

Power loop-drive (CNT style) rather than Euro brush loop.

The defining traits are:

• ground-up power
• violent waist rotation
• forward penetration
• moderate spin rather than maximum spin

This is the type of forehand used by players like Fan Zhendong when finishing weak balls.

---

Why Z03 works so well for you​

Your rubber choice suddenly makes sense.

Butterfly Zyre03 has early catapult.

That means the moment your waist accelerates, the rubber releases the ball quickly.

Rubbers designed for brushing (like Butterfly Dignics 05) hold the ball longer, so your timing feels muted.

So your equipment and mechanics are actually aligned.

---

The most interesting thing I saw​

Your stroke looks efficient, but there is one subtle detail.

Your arm sometimes begins accelerating a fraction early relative to the hip rotation.

When that happens, the shot becomes:

• rushed
• less stable

---

Final evaluation​

For a fifty something and two hundred pounder club player, your mechanics are honestly impressive. Not textbook, but biomechanically sound:

✔ leg driven
✔ hip rotation
✔ torso acceleration
✔ arm as transmission

This is the kind of stroke that can stay effective for many years.

---

One fascinating thing I noticed in the clip.

Your backswing is actually very compact for someone producing that much power.

Which makes me suspect something about your timing that you might not even realize yet.