Help: Blade/rubber for son 11

Der_Echte · Apr 26, 2018

You could make the argument for any option, the Primorac, the TBS, or even an ALL+ blade...

He will still adapt and grow, but the logic and arguments of the two slower wood setups should carry more weight.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

yuri.saldon · Apr 26, 2018

There is a kid in my club who is probably the best in Latin America at his age (11 I think).
His father gave to him a Petr korbel with sriver g3 fh and sriver bh for a long time until last year when he changed to tenergy but keep the Petr korbel.
He did that to make him develop power.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

CluelessTTDad · Apr 27, 2018

One final question... Xiom Vega Pro comes in 1.8, 2.0 & 2.3mm ... which would be better with either a Primorac or a Acoustic ?

langel · Apr 27, 2018

Depends a lot, but usually 2.0 mm works best for most players and with most blades.

CluelessTTDad · Apr 27, 2018

Quick update... just ordered a Nittaku Acoustic blade and Vega Pro (2.0mm) rubbers... figured it wouldn't be so difficult to "sell" him the idea that he can shelve the Timo Boll for a while and use Ma Long's blade instead

I'll keep you guys posted as to how he gets on with them.

SPIN-OPTIMIZER · Apr 27, 2018

Hi, I agree with carl, I was about to say vega pro, until I read it in the comments

.
other rubbers I would recommend:
Xiom vega pro
Andro rasant series (probably not rasant turbo)
Tibhar evolution EL-S, EL-P, would most likey recommend MX-S
Donic Acuda series

I agree that the blade s very good, i think that i is better to stick to he blade, and just change the rubber, your son will be sing the tb alc some day anyways, so why not start getting used to it with slower rubber now?

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 27, 2018

CluelessTTDad said:
Quick update... just ordered a Nittaku Acoustic blade and Vega Pro (2.0mm) rubbers... figured it wouldn't be so difficult to "sell" him the idea that he can shelve the Timo Boll for a while and use Ma Long's blade instead

I'll keep you guys posted as to how he gets on with them.

That is going to be an awesome setup for him. Acoustic is a beautiful blade.

2.0 sounds like a good thickness. If that works really well for him, when you get the next set of rubbers, you could step up to max if he seems ready for it. Not needed. But if, when the Vega Pro on the blade are starting to loose some oomph, you could get Vega Pro in Max.

After he is done with that, he will probably be ready for T05 max. Then the next step after that would be the TB ALC. That is the next 12-18 months of progress.

SPIN-OPTIMIZER · Apr 27, 2018

Which tenergy did your son use?

CluelessTTDad · Apr 27, 2018

UpSideDownCarl said:
That is going to be an awesome setup for him. Acoustic is a beautiful blade.

2.0 sounds like a good thickness. If that works really well for him, when you get the next set of rubbers, you could step up to max if he seems ready for it. Not needed. But if, when the Vega Pro on the blade are starting to loose some oomph, you could get Vega Pro in Max.

After he is done with that, he will probably be ready for T05 max. Then the next step after that would be the TB ALC. That is the next 12-18 months of progress.

Cool.... I kind of expected he might be 5 years away from getting his TB ALC back ! Shows how much I know !

[and it was Tenergy 05FX]

laistrogian · Apr 27, 2018

UpSideDownCarl said:
That is going to be an awesome setup for him. Acoustic is a beautiful blade.

2.0 sounds like a good thickness. If that works really well for him, when you get the next set of rubbers, you could step up to max if he seems ready for it. Not needed. But if, when the Vega Pro on the blade are starting to loose some oomph, you could get Vega Pro in Max.

After he is done with that, he will probably be ready for T05 max. Then the next step after that would be the TB ALC. That is the next 12-18 months of progress.

Dont you think something like a clipper would be a better step-up first before using ALC?

I do agree that acoustic is a good choice tho. In terms of all wood blade acoustic is probably one of the best if not the best when it comes to feeling

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 27, 2018

laistrogian said:
Dont you think something like a clipper would be a better step-up first before using ALC?

I do agree that acoustic is a good choice tho. In terms of all wood blade acoustic is probably one of the best if not the best when it comes to feeling

If the kid gets to a decently high level and has good technique, then anything will be fine. Clipper is heavy for kids under 17-18.

He has a TB ALC. Truthfully, he could use it and develop with it right now and still be fine. But the choice of the Acoustic with Vega Pro is intelligent to get the kid using more of his own power instead of relying on the speed of the equipment.

So, If he gets to a level where Acoustic + T05 max is working for him, then it would be a fine next step, 12-24 months down the road to upgrade to the TB ALC that is being saved for him.

TTDad: To keep the rubbers on the TB ALC as good as possible, you might want to store the racket in something as close to air tight as possible. Oxogen causes rubber molecules to break down. So sealed in something as close to air tight as possible will cause the rubbers to stay as good as possible while they are being stored. Or, if you took the rubbers off, you could just store the rubbers like that. But if you take the rubbers off, make sure the side with the glue is facing something like a sheet of plastic or the cardboard from a rubber package. You don't want the glue of one sheet to touch the glue or topsheet of the other sheet of rubber.

CluelessTTDad · Apr 27, 2018

Good tip for preserving the rubber.... thanks. Will be cheaper to buy one of those kitchen vacuum sealer gadgets now than buy new Tenergy rubber in 2 years time.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 27, 2018

CluelessTTDad said:
Good tip for preserving the rubber.... thanks. Will be cheaper to buy one of those kitchen vacuum sealer gadgets now than buy new Tenergy rubber in 2 years time.

Plastic wrap around the rubber and then the whole thing in a good quality ziplock bag might even be enough.

Jimbob MacInbred · Apr 28, 2018

@CluelessTTDad

Now I don't mean to confuse you and I'm aware that you already ordered the new set up for your son. I understand that the Vega Pro is going to be put on the bh too, right? Well, I played the Vega Pro for quite some time (both on a composite (Viscaria) and my KJH, a 7ply allwood blade in the off minus range). It is actually one of my favourite rubbers.
I'd like to point out that the Vega Pro is a pretty hard rubber (medium hard to hard sponge (47.5° on the ESN scale) and also a rather hard and somewhat "dull" topsheet) which has very low catapult (compared to stuff like Tenergy, Evolution, Mantra etc.).

My point is: It is an excellent choice for the fh, but probably not so much for the bh, since it is not that easy to get decent or enough pace out of it (it is good for blocking close to the table though...). Most youngsters prefer to play with the fh and generally spoken, you can swing faster on the fh side, so playing the Vega Pro on the fh is not so much an "issue"). I know that Carl and others recommend developing players to play the same rubber both on fh and bh until they have developed their own style and are ready for a different set up, i. e. different rubbers for fh and bh, if necessary. I support that point of view and I also agree with Carl's recommendation to get your kid to use his own power instead of relying on the speed of a given set up...

But as I mentioned, it is oftentimes hard (probably even more for an 11yo than for me) to get some decent pace out of the Vega Pro on the bh side. When I had it on my Viscaria, the VP got the additional kick from the ALC, but on my KJH it was definitley too slow. Since your kid gets coaching he'll learn to properly bh topspin and in match situations he'll find himself in situations where he has to lob or (passively) block from two, three or whatever metres away from the table. I do not think that the VP is particularly good for that (bh topspinning, getting out of defensive/passive situations). It is not excactly bad, but let's say that other rubbers do a better job at it.

So, don't be too surprised if your son mentions one day that the Vega Pro is too hard/too slow for his bh. If so, you can still slap him a Vega Europe or a Mantra S or M on the bh side (Mantra M is really good!)... or you can boost the shyt out of the Vega Pro

Anyway, good luck to you and your kid. Keep us updated. I like your thread.

CluelessTTDad · Apr 28, 2018

Jimbob MacInbred said:
@CluelessTTDad

Now I don't mean to confuse you and I'm aware that you already ordered the new set up for your son. I understand that the Vega Pro is going to be put on the bh too, right? Well, I played the Vega Pro for quite some time (both on a composite (Viscaria) and my KJH, a 7ply allwood blade in the off minus range). It is actually one of my favourite rubbers.
I'd like to point out that the Vega Pro is a pretty hard rubber (medium hard to hard sponge (47.5° on the ESN scale) and also a rather hard and somewhat "dull" topsheet) which has very low catapult (compared to stuff like Tenergy, Evolution, Mantra etc.).

My point is: It is an excellent choice for the fh, but probably not so much for the bh, since it is not that easy to get decent or enough pace out of it (it is good for blocking close to the table though...). Most youngsters prefer to play with the fh and generally spoken, you can swing faster on the fh side, so playing the Vega Pro on the fh is not so much an "issue"). I know that Carl and others recommend developing players to play the same rubber both on fh and bh until they have developed their own style and are ready for a different set up, i. e. different rubbers for fh and bh, if necessary. I support that point of view and I also agree with Carl's recommendation to get your kid to use his own power instead of relying on the speed of a given set up...

But as I mentioned, it is oftentimes hard (probably even more for an 11yo than for me) to get some decent pace out of the Vega Pro on the bh side. When I had it on my Viscaria, the VP got the additional kick from the ALC, but on my KJH it was definitley too slow. Since your kid gets coaching he'll learn to properly bh topspin and in match situations he'll find himself in situations where he has to lob or (passively) block from two, three or whatever metres away from the table. I do not think that the VP is particularly good for that (bh topspinning, getting out of defensive/passive situations). It is not excactly bad, but let's say that other rubbers do a better job at it.

So, don't be too surprised if your son mentions one day that the Vega Pro is too hard/too slow for his bh. If so, you can still slap him a Vega Europe or a Mantra S or M on the bh side (Mantra M is really good!)... or you can boost the shyt out of the Vega Pro

Anyway, good luck to you and your kid. Keep us updated. I like your thread.

Many thanks for the advice... I'll definitely watch out for the differences on the BH side... he's developed a very good BH loop over the last 6 months which he's hitting several metres from the table, it's impressive to see with the TB ALC... will watch to see if this is affected.

Will definitely keep you guys updated... he's addicted to table tennis and is progressing fast... it's great to know there is a forum like this which is so helpful even for the less knowledgeable amongst us.

Der_Echte · Apr 28, 2018

Like Jim-Bob, I have used the Vega Pro on the Kim Jung Hoon wood blade too. (But he prolly used it way longer, a TT friend unknowingly slapped on a sheet to my KJH recently)

Despite the ACTUAL hardness, Vega Pro feels and plays softer. This I think is a positive. Vega Pro makes it real easy to generate good topspin in a number of different strokes. It has a very dynamic topsheet. Amazingly, the touch on this rubber is excellent for a dynamic rubber. Usually, these kind of rubbers are bouncy as all letout.

This is why I feel it is good rubber for growing player...

- Flexy topsheet is forgiving and conducive to generate topspin and control of slow, and medium force topspin shots

- Rubber is not crazy bouncy... this gives player good feel of the ball. Very important to have feedback. Gives great control of passing and shots needing touch

- Top end is not ridiculous fast - encourages player to generate more force

- Topsheet and sponge are dynamic - so when you really hit with force, you have good control. Topsheet wrap and sponge dig are real good here. This adds control. You won't overpower the world with this rubber, but you can still land the power shots with enough power. A power shot sucks if it misses.

- Vega Pro is fine on either wing. Maybe it is a bit under-powered on FH, but big deal. You make up for it with good consistency and control of placement. There is still "enough" power there with your normal power stroke using this rubber.

I could make similar category and totally different technical "how it works" arguments for Karis as well. So we could for other companies' products of this class. I think every company makes a couple rubbers of this category - Modern OFF control rubber.

I am a firm believer in getting equipment in the "zone" of what is appropriate for what a player is doing and sticking to that class of equipment until it is time to go up or down in aggression.

What you selected for your son is PLENTY within the "Zone" of appropriateness and should help him out hugely as he grows.

Der_Echte · Apr 28, 2018

This week I "Geared Down" my blade and slapped Xiom Sigma Pro and Vega Pro to the ALL+ 5-Ply LISSOM.

C-TT-Dad, you mentioned it is important for son to BH topspin away from table...

I tried this setup last night. One would think a slower blade and this rubber would suffer in this shot situation...

DON"T WORRY.

I ended up last night absolutely CRACKING backhand fast loops and spinny opening loops... A dynamic rubber on a medium or slow medium wood blade can REALLY have a top end if struck right.

Maybe I make a thread about gearing down.

Often, my main blade goes out and I "Gear Down" to the ALL+ 5 ply Lissom (or the Galaxy 896 in my Der_Echte Special) and play 1-3 with the setup. Often, it grows my game, so it is a worthy idea sometimes to do that I think.

Jimbob MacInbred · Apr 28, 2018

Der_Echte said:
...It has a very dynamic topsheet. Amazingly, the touch on this rubber is excellent for a dynamic rubber. Usually, these kind of rubbers are bouncy as all letout.

- Rubber is not crazy bouncy... this gives player good feel of the ball. Very important to have feedback. Gives great control of passing and shots needing touch
...

Yeah, short game is also easy with the VP (forgot to mention it)...

Der_Echte said:
...
C-TT-Dad, you mentioned it is important for son to BH topspin away from table...

I tried this setup last night. One would think a slower blade and this rubber would suffer in this shot situation...

DON"T WORRY.

I ended up last night absolutely CRACKING backhand fast loops and spinny opening loops... A dynamic rubber on a medium or slow medium wood blade can REALLY have a top end if struck right.
...

Well, I guess that's possible. The question (for me) still is: Has an 11 year old boy the physical capabilities to perform such a shot from (way) behind the table with a (relatively seen) low catapult rubber?
As far as I can tell, no kid at my club plays a rubber such as (or similar to) the Vega Pro. Pretty much all of them play with 5ply allwood blades and soft rubbers...

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 28, 2018

Jimbob MacInbred said:
Yeah, short game is also easy with the VP (forgot to mention it)...

Well, I guess that's possible. The question (for me) still is: Has an 11 year old boy the physical capabilities to perform such a shot from (way) behind the table with a (relatively seen) low catapult rubber?
As far as I can tell, no kid at my club plays a rubber such as (or similar to) the Vega Pro. Pretty much all of them play with 5ply allwood blades and soft rubbers...

2 details:

1) One of the reasons for backing up to a 5 ply all wood blade with control rubbers is so the kid can learn to generate the power. So, if that is a little harder with slightly slower equipment, that is actually something that will help the kid learn how to generate the power in the end anyway.

2) Shorter levers accelerate faster but top out at a slower top speed. Longer levers accelerate slower but top out at a higher top speed. What on earth does this have to do with TT and kids? Let me first use just any old body:
a) The wrist accelerates faster than the forearm.
b) The forearm accelerates faster than the whole arm.
c) From the standpoint of the body, this is the reason you want elbow, wrist, shoulder, hips, legs all as part of the mechanics of a good stroke.

How does it apply to a kid verses an adult player: well, with TT, the ball is very light, so ultimate power, like what Der_Echte definitely has behind his strokes as a full grown man, is not always necessary in TT for getting the ball to have cracking speed and power.

If you watch Ma Long at 15, his shots are faster than they are today even though he is using a Nittaku Acoustic. His technique is better now. And he has more power behind his shots. But the pace of his shots at 15 was faster (more speed but back then he got less spin, hence, less overall power).

Smaller, shorter levers with faster acceleration can also lead to speed and power when you are propelling a ball as light as a TT ball. Especially if your timing on the weight transfer, core rotation, forearm snap and wrist whip are all well timed to the ball. Which is exactly what the slightly slower equipment should help the kid develop.

So, a kid, with smaller limbs, can actually get that racket to accelerate really fast in a short period of time even if they don't have as much force or body weight behind the shot. So, my guess is, TTDad's kid probably will be able to develop the extra mechanics pretty quickly to have shots that excel with the Off- setup. Particularly if he was very recently using an Allround setup.

SPIN-OPTIMIZER · Apr 30, 2018

Hi, I wouldn’t recommend plastic wrap. It left crease marks/ stains on my rubber sheets and made them strangely grippy (in a bad way).

Help: Blade/rubber for son 11

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Similar threads