At What Point is an Upgrade from D09c to Z03 Justified on BH?

[Coolsta Connor]

Hi guys.
In my opinion the reasonable path for switching between Butterfly backhand (in this scenario) is D05 > D09c > Z03 based on skill level requirements to use the rubbers. Although Z03 is a direct upgrade to Z03, I think it is more probable to switch from D05 > D09c first as it teaches you proper technique as to how to put speed into the ball through proper contact and pressing whilst spinning it. D05 generates the least top end spin and speed, D09c second most, but according to Butterfly Z03 generates the most of everything (at the cost of control). Most reviews I've seen people highlight the technical differences between D09c and Zyre (tacky/tensor feel), but I think at the top end Z03 shouldn't be intended for this, but rather what you can execute out of the rubber. I say this as many reviews like I said talk about the feel because they can't actually notice any spin differences with Z03 despite there being more top end spin with Z03. That is why I think Z03 is for truly advanced players who can actively commit to strokes and consistently generate more spin despite lessened dwell time. Yes I agree the core difference between D09c and Z03 is that with D09c you can control the ball more, and Z03 generates heaps of speed, as long as you have good touch the difference won't actually be that much. If we look at the pros using Butterfly they have little regard for feel, and want the best performance. It is common that they are changing from D09c to Z03 more, and more. In other news, we don't really have a mid way rubber to bridge the gap between the two, and I'm hoping that Butterfly will release a new hybrid rubber that is in between them.
I'm curious to hear your guy's opinions because here's mine

 

[mamedium]

since when a rubber is doing all the work? when?

 

[Tyce]

Hi guys.
In my opinion the reasonable path for switching between Butterfly backhand (in this scenario) is D05 > D09c > Z03 based on skill level requirements to use the rubbers.

In my opinion, that's wrong. They're all top tier rubber and as such none of them are plain upgrades for the other.
D05 is probably the most rounded one, balancing speed, power, spin.
D09c is more towards low end control and top end power and catered towards playing spin over speed.
Z03 is more towards high speed, catered towards speed over spin.

Depending on your game and preference, you pick one that boosts your strengths or one that hides your flaws. Although if you need to hide flaws, getting a different, non top tier rubber might be cheaper and more effective.

 

[jk1980]

Everybody can play what they enjoy and surely there is a psychological aspect of playing the rubbers of stars. This does not change the fact that the people these rubbers are for would tell you that these are too hard to handle for 98% of the players including 95% of this forum. If a former bundesliga player with great feeling and skill who is still in shape and mid40 tells me d09c is becoming too taxing to play when he only trains 4 times a week, then by that standard nobody in here should play them, especially not when there is still some technique to develop.

TLDR; the moment you would actually benefiit from these rubbers will never come for you, because at that point you would be at least semi-professional with a sponsor whomwould paymfor your equipment.

Musclepong is a very good example of how using inappropriate equipment makes you stall development in the best case, or not improve and develop bad coping habits in the worst case

 

[Matteones]

Everybody can play what they enjoy and surely there is a psychological aspect of playing the rubbers of stars. This does not change the fact that the people these rubbers are for would tell you that these are too hard to handle for 98% of the players including 95% of this forum. If a former bundesliga player with great feeling and skill who is still in shape and mid40 tells me d09c is becoming too taxing to play when he only trains 4 times a week, then by that standard nobody in here should play them, especially not when there is still some technique to develop.

TLDR; the moment you would actually benefiit from these rubbers will never come for you, because at that point you would be at least semi-professional with a sponsor whomwould paymfor your equipment.

Musclepong is a very good example of how using inappropriate equipment makes you stall development in the best case, or not improve and develop bad coping habits in the worst case

Whilst I agree generally with what you are saying, there is one specificity I do not agree with:

I imagine you mean Timo who switched away from D09C, being too taxing to play and having the skill to play it are two very different things, from the semi-pro level up you are looking for that little 2-3% edge that the material gives you, and whilst for Timo in particular this means giving up a little bit of spin and precision in favour of some free speed, that's not true for everyone else with a different skill set and game.

If what's important for you is to become the best player you can be, you can get into equipment for that 2-3% when your technical development has "finished" or has become stagnant for whatever reason.
If what's important for you is to have fun, try any equipment at any time whenever you want.

Just know how unimportant material is relatively to your table tennis skills (going with common sense here, of course an old sriver 1.5 mm is different than a Dignics, but with any rubber of the same generation with similar hardness and characteristics - they are almost the same thing).
@Coolsta Connor to answer to your original post, those rubbers are not upgrades to each others, just rubbers with different purposes in mind, try them and use the one that best fits your game if you are curious.

If you are not at least at advanced - national level, you'd be better off with more forgiving rubbers.

 

[Tyce]

Everybody can play what they enjoy and surely there is a psychological aspect of playing the rubbers of stars. This does not change the fact that the people these rubbers are for would tell you that these are too hard to handle for 98% of the players including 95% of this forum. If a former bundesliga player with great feeling and skill who is still in shape and mid40 tells me d09c is becoming too taxing to play when he only trains 4 times a week, then by that standard nobody in here should play them, especially not when there is still some technique to develop.

TLDR; the moment you would actually benefiit from these rubbers will never come for you, because at that point you would be at least semi-professional with a sponsor whomwould paymfor your equipment.

Musclepong is a very good example of how using inappropriate equipment makes you stall development in the best case, or not improve and develop bad coping habits in the worst case

This is where I see two distinctively different types of how people use material, both valid options but wildly different.

One can use D09c for the high amount of spin generation and control on low-medium shots (and never use the ceiling of the sponge). To some, that looks like buying a sports car to race between traffic lights. Financially quite ineffective you might say, but on the other hand nothing else exists on the market that gives this high quality, consistent, lasting, dependable solution even if only for the topsheet. Glayzer 09c is just not that, it's weaker, deader, takes more effort to get less quality. Basically exactly what Rozena is for Tenergy.

One can also use D09c for the high amount of spin generation and control on higher power shots, giving a high-level edge with just that bit extra in sponge hardness as well as the brilliant gripping properties. While those people may be near or on the ceiling for that rubber, getting there requires a high level of fitness and consistency. Dropping fitness on that level is usually more detrimental than dropping a tiny bit of edge in the rubber and maintaining your fitness for longer. This is more like getting a car with launch control and perhaps a more comfortable seat, giving up a few kgs of advantage for just that bit more automation to keep your focus up for longer.


I don't think it's fair to call either of those methods "wrong". They correlate with skill level, usually a high level player will be in camp two, and lower level players will be in camp one.

 

[dingyibvs]

They're pretty different rubbers, I wouldn't necessarily call one an upgrade of another. D05 to Z03 might be closer to an "upgrade" as they do play somewhat similarly, but D09c is very different from those two. D09c's special due to its dwell, it gives extra control during very hard shots with a large swing. To take advantage of that, of course, you'd need to loop very hard with a large swing. I don't know what exactly gives D05 and Z03 their qualities, but they're both a lot easier to activate the sponge and neither gives great dwell. Big swing doesn't make much of a difference, especially not for Z03, as the ball bounces away before the blade is activated.

 

[Tyce]

If you are not at least at advanced - national level, you'd be better off with more forgiving rubbers.

Define more forgiving

D09c is very forgiving in the short game, easy to play slow loops, insensitive to incoming spin.
Hurricane 3, same thing.
Put a sturdy blade behind it and you get a pretty forgiving setup in that regard.

Short game, slow to medium stuff, is in my opinion not all that easy to do with something medium and "sensible" like a Rakza 7. That stuff is bouncy and that makes me spray balls rather than putting in consistent placement.

And if I opt for a Rozena (which is the personification of "forgiving" according to Butterfly), the amount of quality I have to surrender in order to get that easy consistency honestly just makes me feel incapable of making a proper quality shot.

All rubbers are a compromise. The question is, which one do you like to work with?
- If you go softer for more control and easier spin, you get less clear ball feedback and bottoming to deal with.
- If you go harder for more feedback, you're going to be out of the activation window most of the time meaning there's a lot of work to put in.
- If you go medium, what you usually end up with is the worst of both. Muted feedback, bouncy, hard to control, activation window is a bit too high or too low so sponge can give a bit of kicking in when you don't want it to. Or even worse, when the activation window is too small you get that jump on low-medium power and bottom out as soon as you start really working on the ball.

Most medium rubbers feel like unpredictable, unreliable shit to me. Most softer rubbers feel incompetent and those that are good enough to put some strong spin on, are usually very jiggly in the short game.

 

[Matteones]

Define more forgiving

D09c is very forgiving in the short game, easy to play slow loops, insensitive to incoming spin.
Hurricane 3, same thing.
Put a sturdy blade behind it and you get a pretty forgiving setup in that regard.

Short game, slow to medium stuff, is in my opinion not all that easy to do with something medium and "sensible" like a Rakza 7. That stuff is bouncy and that makes me spray balls rather than putting in consistent placement.

And if I opt for a Rozena (which is the personification of "forgiving" according to Butterfly), the amount of quality I have to surrender in order to get that easy consistency honestly just makes me feel incapable of making a proper quality shot.

All rubbers are a compromise. The question is, which one do you like to work with?
- If you go softer for more control and easier spin, you get less clear ball feedback and bottoming to deal with.
- If you go harder for more feedback, you're going to be out of the activation window most of the time meaning there's a lot of work to put in.
- If you go medium, what you usually end up with is the worst of both. Muted feedback, bouncy, hard to control, activation window is a bit too high or too low so sponge can give a bit of kicking in when you don't want it to. Or even worse, when the activation window is too small you get that jump on low-medium power and bottom out as soon as you start really working on the ball.

Most medium rubbers feel like unpredictable, unreliable shit to me. Most softer rubbers feel incompetent and those that are good enough to put some strong spin on, are usually very jiggly in the short game.

I think some ideas are confused here.

- D09C is not forgiving in the short game, it may be precise and not bouncy, but forgiving it is not.
- D09C is not at all easy to play slow loops, you have to be in a good position or you'll send a ball that can barely be called a topspin. A softer rubber is easier to loop.
- A rubber that gives a lot of spin, by definition, cannot be insensitive to incoming spin.
- Hurricane 3, that I myself use, I would not put to any beginner or intermediate level player who doesn't have access to systematic training, as it is just masochistic to use without boost.

I don't really know what your level is, but butterfly is more than right saying that Rozena is the personification of forgiving.

 

[NextLevel]

I think some ideas are confused here.

- D09C is not forgiving in the short game, it may be precise and not bouncy, but forgiving it is not.
- D09C is not at all easy to play slow loops, you have to be in a good position or you'll send a ball that can barely be called a topspin. A softer rubber is easier to loop.
- A rubber that gives a lot of spin, by definition, cannot be insensitive to incoming spin.
- Hurricane 3, that I myself use, I would not put to any beginner or intermediate level player who doesn't have access to systematic training, as it is just masochistic to use without boost.

I don't really know what your level is, but butterfly is more than right saying that Rozena is the personification of forgiving.

Hi @Matteones, are you coming to the TTD meetup in Duesseldorf, next month?

 

[NextLevel]

Everybody can play what they enjoy and surely there is a psychological aspect of playing the rubbers of stars. This does not change the fact that the people these rubbers are for would tell you that these are too hard to handle for 98% of the players including 95% of this forum. If a former bundesliga player with great feeling and skill who is still in shape and mid40 tells me d09c is becoming too taxing to play when he only trains 4 times a week, then by that standard nobody in here should play them, especially not when there is still some technique to develop.

TLDR; the moment you would actually benefiit from these rubbers will never come for you, because at that point you would be at least semi-professional with a sponsor whomwould paymfor your equipment.

Musclepong is a very good example of how using inappropriate equipment makes you stall development in the best case, or not improve and develop bad coping habits in the worst case

I just lost to a USATT1700 kid (not more than 12 years old) using Timo Boll ALC with D09c on both sides. I now realize I was the one who caused it as a USATT 1800 using Zyre. If I had used Rozena, it would not have been a contest!

More seriously, no, no, no, musclepong is not having issues because he chose bad equipment. He is having issues because table tennis is hard and no one is giving him the discipline he needs to develop his game and he has enough money to change equipment all the time. He is good enough to get good with anything he wants to use, he just needs to stick with it and use it. If he was a kid, he would not be EJing so much. Adults have more money so...

 

[Matteones]

Hi @Matteones, are you coming to the TTD meetup in Duesseldorf, next month?

Hello!
I would really love to, but my 6 months old and wife would not be happy with me leaving for many days on end 😁

 

[Tyce]

I think some ideas are confused here.

- D09C is not forgiving in the short game, it may be precise and not bouncy, but forgiving it is not.

So what would make it more forgiving, if precision and insensitivity doesn't do it? I'm honestly asking because I must be missing something here. In my mind, those things mean forgiving.

- D09C is not at all easy to play slow loops, you have to be in a good position or you'll send a ball that can barely be called a topspin. A softer rubber is easier to loop.

A softer rubber is easier to loop, absolutely, but I can't make a strong (spin AND speed) loop with softer rubbers. It always feels like I'm either playing too far closed and over the grip limit, or too far open and bottoming like hell.

- A rubber that gives a lot of spin, by definition, cannot be insensitive to incoming spin.

Hmm I don't agree on that definition. Any rubber that makes it very easy to override the incoming spin is, in a way, not sensitive to the incoming spin. Tacky rubber does it by being able to grip the ball tightly with very light and slow contact, yet those are among the rubbers with the absolute highest spin capacity.

- Hurricane 3, that I myself use, I would not put to any beginner or intermediate level player who doesn't have access to systematic training, as it is just masochistic to use without boost.

This is a matter of perspective and expectations. I do not expect to make powerloops out of thin air, but it fits pretty well to tame my sometimes wild technique and still produce reasonable balls.

I don't really know what your level is, but butterfly is more than right saying that Rozena is the personification of forgiving.

Oh I agree Rozena is forgiving and very easy to use. My problem with it is that it's that and only that.
My level isn't high at all, I'm a mediocre club player at best, so I don't quite understand why I (feel like I) hit those limits


Having said all that, I do think I'm going to be better off this season trading some quality for pure placement control.