At what skill level would a hard (48-50 deg and up) FH rubber improve the game?

[Table10Ice]

Hi,
I've had a strange discussion with a club mate of mine. He has got this weird opinion that you always should choose a hard (48-50 deg and harder sponge) FH rubber if using a carbon blade. I try to explain to him that all carbon blades are not equal and the differences in speed, stiffness and hardness is huge. Actually, I don't think he understands that there are all wood blades much faster, stiffer and harder than some carbon ones.

Anyways, according to him using a carbon blade with a FH rubber with 47,5 deg sponge and softer is a complete waste of both resources and money, he simply thinks it wont work because it isn't supposed to. At the same time, when I read rubber reviews on this very site, some written by Yogi Bear, of Stiga rubbers, the conclusion is that the M (47,5) rubbers are the ones that should fit most players.

In general then, at what level could hard FH rubbers be an advantage instead of a liability?

 

[jk1980]

At No level, because at first you will most likely play worse and get less spin and less consistent results. After adjusting which is actually you getting better into position for every stroke and getting more acceleration to use the harder sponge you will gain in gears. You will probably improve in the short game and have more resources to play away from the table.

 

[NextLevel]

I wouldn't call it a skill level so much as looping thr ball.harder consistently and feeling that the rubber is not supporting your technique. I would say that while good players can use soft rubbers at high levels to support certain styles, and lower rated players can get benefit from using hard rubber even suboptimal depending on how they are developed, for offensive output given an athletic offensive style, consistent benefit comes with thr acceleration that is seen around USATT 1800 or TTR 1500. But you will benefit if you have that acceleration to a good degree, playing level is not always about it but playing style is.

 

[latej]

In general then, at what level could hard FH rubbers be an advantage instead of a liability?

This really is just a preference, I train with players within top 1% of all of Czech rep. (they beat me easily, I very rarely get a set from them), and they have 47 and 48 on FH. Also, the hardness is not everything, you can't really compare say T05H with H3 or others with dense sponge. The way they react on different shot-strength is just too different. I'd simply not worry about it at all and play with whatever you like, it's simple as that.

EDIT: But it may not be as simple to get convinced about it ;-) It took me couple of years too... You need to test and find what you like...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Hi,
I've had a strange discussion with a club mate of mine. He has got this weird opinion that you always should choose a hard (48-50 deg and harder sponge) FH rubber if using a carbon blade. I try to explain to him that all carbon blades are not equal and the differences in speed, stiffness and hardness is huge. Actually, I don't think he understands that there are all wood blades much faster, stiffer and harder than some carbon ones.

Anyways, according to him using a carbon blade with a FH rubber with 47,5 deg sponge and softer is a complete waste of both resources and money, he simply thinks it wont work because it isn't supposed to. At the same time, when I read rubber reviews on this very site, some written by Yogi Bear, of Stiga rubbers, the conclusion is that the M (47,5) rubbers are the ones that should fit most players.

In general then, at what level could hard FH rubbers be an advantage instead of a liability?

if you use too soft rubber, the further away from the table, in this 40+ era, it is just near impossible to return powerful shots.

closer to the table is not a problem.

so that is why you have amateurs using soft to hards, because most times, they play anyway but far from the table.

The harder the sponge, is more difficult to control,
so I agree with yogibear about Medium sponges, or around 45~47.5 ESN as probably ideal for most users.

however, for players I am involved with, especially the weaker ones - which are U13~15 etc, 47.5 is too soft and they need firmer sponges to be able to get that power.

 

[Table10Ice]

At No level, because at first you will most likely play worse and get less spin and less consistent results. After adjusting which is actually you getting better into position for every stroke and getting more acceleration to use the harder sponge you will gain in gears. You will probably improve in the short game and have more resources to play away from the table.

Do you encourage me to try out some harder FH rubbers? Lately I've used Vega Pro H, J&H X47.5, Victas V20 extra and Victas V15 Sticky Soft on my FH. Actually, the other day I ordered some Stiga Hybrid H, DNA Platinum H and Dragon Power 52.5 to try out. Cheap as hell on Aliexpress Black Friday, maybe around 25 euros each.

And what about the idea of only using harder rubbers on carbon blades? Bullshit or not?

 

[kapahoo]

Short game is easier for everyone with harder rubbers.

 

[Lungfish]

This really is just a preference, I train with players within top 1% of all of Czech rep. (they beat me easily, I very rarely get a set from them), and they have 47 and 48 on FH. Also, the hardness is not everything, you can't really compare say T05H with H3 or others with dense sponge. The way they react on different shot-strength is just too different. I'd simply not worry about it at all and play with whatever you like, it's simple as that.

EDIT: But it may not be as simple to get convinced about it ;-) It took me couple of years too... You need to test and find what you like...

i would say that it depends on the blade. softer and more flexy blade, harder rubber. softer rubber, harder and stiffer blade. the czechs most likely have stiffer carbon blades.

 

[ToH]

I think this hardness is ok for beginners. It depends a lot on the blade. And it depends on the rubber. Maybe Schlager got a point in this paid commercial:

 

[latej]

i would say that it depends on the blade. softer and more flexy blade, harder rubber. softer rubber, harder and stiffer blade. the czechs most likely have stiffer carbon blades.

Well, one has Viscaria, not very heavy, and can generate bullets. The other has 5-ply, but heavier.

I think this hardness is ok for beginners. It depends a lot on the blade. And it depends on the rubber. Maybe Schlager got a point in this paid commercial:

But NO, here in TTD we all absolutely need Zyre 03.

 

[Lungfish]

I think this hardness is ok for beginners. It depends a lot on the blade. And it depends on the rubber. Maybe Schlager got a point in this paid commercial:

But here you can see, he uses soft rubbers bc he has a SUPER fast and stiff carbon blade. Schlager carbon is a very fast blade OFF+!

 

[PoppaChubby]

If you look at the pros I guess the skill level is to be able to finish a crossfit competition.

 

[NextLevel]

But here you can see, he uses soft rubbers bc he has a SUPER fast and stiff carbon blade. Schlager carbon is a very fast blade OFF+!

It's not that straightforward in my experience and knowing what i do about equipment and what pros use. "Soft" is a dangerous word because 47‐48 is not soft, and sponge hardness is not the same thing as pip configuration and pip configuration conveys hardness as well. If you are speaking about the pro level (the principle applies broadly to all styles and levels, but is most easily seen at the pro level), your equipment needs to be able to facilitate the shots that are most important for your game. At the pro level, that usually means you need some ability to push short and an ability to play various topspin shots with enough arc to feel confident. Soft rubbers are usually far less dense sponges so they don't give you good spin on hard shots. Moreover, it is easy for That said, spin isn't everything and some things were easier in the old days with speed glue. Stiffer blades facilitate less arc which is not a bad thing, it all depends on what you are trying to do. But to say they work with softer sponges is a bit of a generalization, for a while Timo and Groth played reasonably well with D09c on Primorac Carbon for example. In the end, everyone has a range od shots and swings they like to execute against various balls, and there is not 100% valid way to tell how some combination will perform without testing it out. I guarantee you that many pros will have least have tried out short pushes and loops vs backspin and gotten comfortable that they can do them before embracing anything considered stiff and fast.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Hi,
I've had a strange discussion with a club mate of mine. He has got this weird opinion that you always should choose a hard (48-50 deg and harder sponge) FH rubber if using a carbon blade. I try to explain to him that all carbon blades are not equal and the differences in speed, stiffness and hardness is huge. Actually, I don't think he understands that there are all wood blades much faster, stiffer and harder than some carbon ones.

Anyways, according to him using a carbon blade with a FH rubber with 47,5 deg sponge and softer is a complete waste of both resources and money, he simply thinks it wont work because it isn't supposed to. At the same time, when I read rubber reviews on this very site, some written by Yogi Bear, of Stiga rubbers, the conclusion is that the M (47,5) rubbers are the ones that should fit most players.

In general then, at what level could hard FH rubbers be an advantage instead of a liability?

short answer: You will just know.

Spoiler: Long answer:

1. Gozo has the Falcima ( Bty modern five ply all wood )
2. Used to use it and it was good with nice control, nice feeling. The kind of feeling where you feel like taking your family for a nice road trip, no hurry, just chill and relax kind of feeling.
3. Then I moved to my current set-up ( see my signature )
4. When Gozo goes back to Falcima again, something just feels off.
5. The ball wobbles, the arc is funny, the ball just won’t go anymore. The feeling is so flimsy. No solidness in the stroke anymore. But the main thing I felt off was how wobbly the ball felt when looping from mid distance.
6. This is how I know, this blade is not longer suitable and it is just too weak for me. I have somehow outgrown the blade.
7.So this comes back to my earlier statement; you simply just know.

 

[Julzig]

So a Viscaria and Tenergys where not supposed to work together back then?

I recommend my players (and most beginners) to stay in the 45-48° range, for me it is the sweetspot for learning/improving strokes.
Not too unforgiving and not too assisting. Obviously not all rubbers fit this even at that hardness range.

I reverted a few times to 46-47° rubbers, because over the winter period I often get sick and dont have the strenght to hit well over and over.
With 47° Rubbers you can still get amazing quality and wont risk bottoming out, while also beeing easier to play.
Only if you hit every ball well with those you could get more with harder once.

And yes I play harder rubbers. Do I need them? Am I better with them? Most likely no, but I love testing and those are just fun to play.

So I would say regardless of your Blade, carbon or not, you can always play what fits your own game and strenght. Most importantly what makes one happy.