Butterfly Zyre 03

[merlin el mago]

Once thing is phisics another thing is not all people do very good smashes like not all people do very good power topspin, like I said depends the skills of each player some smash better some power topspin better.

If you ask my point of view I will say power topspin is more safe and have more control than smash, also it's a lot of more difficult to return a power topspin well placed than a smash well placed. It's not all power, placement & spin still counts....

 

[Tyce]

Why would a top spin be faster than a flat hit ? That's physically impossible because of Newton's laws.

You can play a faster top spin than a flat hit and still make it land due to Magnus effect pulling the ball down.
Of course once the ball gets higher over the net this becomes irrelevant.

 

[NextLevel]

No, that's simple physics. At same "arm speed", flat hit give all energy for ball horizontal speed, whereas a top spin will give part of its energy to the rotation of the ball, that hence can't go faster than with the flat hit, since part of the energy is not given for horizontal movement. For the same reason, flat serves and flat groundstrokes at tennis are always faster than spin strokes.

All things being equal, yes, but not all things are equal in table tennis and that is what @merlin el mago is pointing out. You cannot flat hit a low ball (below net height)l onto the table with speed. You can topspin a low ball onto the table with speed. You can put more energy into the topspin because of the security - you might not put as much into a flat hit because of the lack of security. You will struggle to punch at Gauzy distances but fast topspins are possible. Also, topspins can accelerate after the bounce because of kick, flat hits tend to slow down more quickly because they lose energy into the table.

 

[Grumms]

All things being equal, yes, but not all things are equal in table tennis and that is what @merlin el mago is pointing out. You cannot flat hit a low ball (below net height)l onto the table with speed. You can topspin a low ball onto the table with speed. You can put more energy into the topspin because of the security - you might not put as much into a flat hit because of the lack of security. You will struggle to punch at Gauzy distances but fast topspins are possible. Also, topspins can accelerate after the bounce because of kick, flat hits tend to slow down more quickly because they lose energy into the table.

Merlin posts is litteraly "all things being equal".

 

[NextLevel]

Merlin posts is litteraly "all things being equal".

He wrote a lot of stuff I didn't think was relevant but my interpretation of what he wrote probably differed from yours.

 

[merlin el mago]

Where do you read in my posts "all things being equal".

 

[Grumms]

You can play a faster top spin than a flat hit and still make it land due to Magnus effect pulling the ball down.
Of course once the ball gets higher over the net this becomes irrelevant.

It's different from waht was stated first :

"Raw flat hit = 1 speed
Flex blade + power topspin (increase RPS) so when the ball contact the table increase the speed, in this case final speed is the sum of power hit + RPS of the ball".

So no, adding spin does not increase the speed. If you meant "spin allows to increase the speed of the strokes I can regularly land on the table", so yes. But full speed flat hit will always be faster than full speed topspin.

 

[Grumms]

Where do you read in my posts "all things being equal".

"in this case final speed is the sum of power hit + RPS of the ball", which is totally false. The more spin you put in the ball, the less speed you give to the ball.

 

[NextLevel]

Well one thing is raw speed using flat hit and other is speed using topspin and a flex blade because the later the ball RPS is adding to raw speed, do you understand now?

Raw flat hit = 1 speed
Flex blade + power topspin (increase RPS) so when the ball contact the table increase the speed, in this case final speed is the sum of power hit + RPS of the ball

If you never used Chinese rubbers is possible that you can't understand my point, some Chinese famous pro high level players (ML, FZD, etc) when have to use flat hit to smash don't use H3 so twiddle the bat and smash with the Japanese or non grippy / sticky rubber because H3 only gets speed throught the spin but Japanese or non grippy rubbers are better for smash because produces a lot less topspin RPS balls

I'm sorry not native English speaker can't explaint better.

I don't think any of these things are relevant to the previous discussion but thanks for sharing. And for practical table tennis, if any of these things made a difference in speed at the top level, more pros would be using all wood. The closest is Hugo in that at least, he doesn't use carbon. But of course, if you know anyone who plays like Hugo, please let me know.

 

[NextLevel]

"in this case final speed is the sum of power hit + RPS of the ball", which is totally false. The more spin you put in the ball, the less speed you give to the ball.

He is arguing for the post bounce kick. That is a real phenomenon. I don't think it gets him what he is arguing, but it is a real phenomenon.

 

[Grumms]

He is arguing for the post bounce kick. That is a real phenomenon. I don't think it gets him what he is arguing, but it is a real phenomenon.

Oh, of course the spin can give extra speed after the bounce. But to what extend ? If that speed was enough, why would any player not try to smash with the most spin possible if the bounce speed gain compensate the lack of speed at the moment of the stroke ?

How much speed the ball has already lost when it hits the table ? Most of the speed after a bounce comes from the elastic shock between the ball and the table, spin is only a small part of that. The trajectory is more affected than the speed.

There seems to be an extensive study here but it's not free : https://pubs.aip.org/aapt/ajp/artic...near-normal-incidence?redirectedFrom=fulltext

 

[NextLevel]

Oh, of course the spin can give extra speed after the bounce. But to what extend ? If that speed was enough, why would any player not try to smash with the most spin possible if the bounce speed gain compensate the lack of speed at the moment of the stroke ?

How much speed the ball has already lost when it hits the table ? Most of the speed after a bounce comes from the elastic shock between the ball and the table, spin is only a small part of that. The trajectory is more affected than the speed.

There seems to be an extensive study here but it's not free : https://pubs.aip.org/aapt/ajp/artic...near-normal-incidence?redirectedFrom=fulltext

I am not disagreeing with you on that, a lot of table tennis physics isn't physics. That said, the heaviest spin often comes on shots that most of us would not call spinny. Hugo showed this in the recent pongfinity video for anyone who is interested and doesn't watch pros who use spinsight.

 

[Tyce]

I am not disagreeing with you on that, a lot of table tennis physics isn't physics. That said, the heaviest spin often comes on shots that most of would not call spinny. Hugo showed this in the recent pongfinity video for anyone who is interested and doesn't watch pros who use spinsight.

I actually saw that yesterday and thought something along the lines of "wouldn't an opening loop be more spinny?" but then Hugo smacked that score 🤣

 

[NextLevel]

I actually saw that yesterday and thought something along the lines of "wouldn't an opening loop be more spinny?" but then Hugo smacked that score 🤣

Most people are thinking about the ratio of spin to forward speed and not absolute spin when they talk about spin. But for whatever reason, those slow spinny shots are less effective these days. Timo's interview had enabled me to get over it lol.

Okay, back to Zyre03. I have to play a bit more but my opinion on it has flipped lol.

 

[mamedium]

equipment topic = physicist conference

 

[andzejgolot]

Love my fzd cnf and zyre combo. But I know there is too much pressure on the ball. I will not change it but i AM scared. This is not good equipment for allround game. Empty fast balls are nightmare to return.

 

[merlin el mago]

"in this case final speed is the sum of power hit + RPS of the ball", which is totally false. The more spin you put in the ball, the less speed you give to the ball.

False, ask ML or FZD and you will get true answer.

Why on earth no pros are only smashing and only doing power topspin???

Resuming what I want to say is that there is people with enough skills like pros that his power topspin is faster than other no pros people that are only good smashing.

RPS count because when ball kicks the table increase the speed!!!!

 

[IB66]

I don't think any of these things are relevant to the previous discussion but thanks for sharing. And for practical table tennis, if any of these things made a difference in speed at the top level, more pros would be using all wood. The closest is Hugo in that at least, he doesn't use carbon. But of course, if you know anyone who plays like Hugo, please let me know.

Not sure if you have seen Hugo on Pongfinity? They are doing a series where Pros do a trick shots, serve at targets etc the usual pongfinity stuff. One ‘test’ is to produce max spin. The other pros used forehand, Hugo his BH - resulting in the highest revs/second recorded. Can’t remember exactly but he was about 15+ revs per second better, and believe me he hit that backhand HARD, ball was really moving!!

 

[IB66]

It’s now been a couple of weeks playing with Z03 on FH (2.7) and BH (2.5).
still on the all wood blade. I played a match tonight and when I got my FH loop going it was very good, high spin and fast. Accuracy was pretty good too. No problems with FH short game touch and control. In fact I would say (tonight) I made lees FH loop errors than I usually did with Xiom O8H !! (Which feel’s harder and is slower.)
On the BH wing it was a little different!! top spins were fast but less controlled. Short game was still good but I needed to adjust more with the top spins, and didn’t!!! Quite a few balls were flying long - more because I wasn’t spinning the ball enough - which is a technique issue rather than the rubber!!
Overall I’m pretty pleased with Z03

 

[RefereeNumber2]

At same "arm speed", flat hit give all energy for ball horizontal speed, whereas a top spin will give part of its energy to the rotation of the ball, that hence can't go faster than with the flat hit, since part of the energy is not given for horizontal movement. For the same reason, flat serves and flat groundstrokes at tennis are always faster than spin strokes.

The actual reason this statement is incorrect is because it ignores the role of the potential energy stored by the rubber during the collision with the ball. For a given racket speed, it's possible that impacting the ball at an oblique angle allows the rubber to store more potential energy than hitting the ball at a normal (90 degree) angle, which could result in a greater combined energy (or quality) of shot. It's the same reason that string tension matters for how powerful a shot you can hit in tennis.