Butterfly Zyre 03

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The actual reason this statement is incorrect is because it ignores the role of the potential energy stored by the rubber during the collision with the ball. For a given racket speed, it's possible that impacting the ball at an oblique angle allows the rubber to store more potential energy than hitting the ball at a normal (90 degree) angle, which could result in a greater combined energy (or quality) of shot. It's the same reason that string tension matters for how powerful a shot you can hit in tennis.
So you are arguing that spin shots engage the topsheet and sponge more and that can make them faster? Even with all things equal?
 
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So you are arguing that spin shots engage the topsheet and sponge more and that can make them faster? Even with all things equal?
The statement I originally quoted made a conservation of energy argument, implicitly assuming that the amount of energy transferred to the ball was determined only by the impact ("arm") speed.

If we held the amount of energy transferred to the ball fixed, then imparting no spin would produce the fastest ball. But at equal impact speeds, the amount of energy transferred to the ball is not equal because of the role played by the rubber in storing and returning potential energy. So a "spin shot" can certainly produce an outgoing ball that has more total energy (combined spin and speed) than a flat shot. In theory, there's no reason it couldn't have higher speed alone, but this really depends on a combination of impact speed, incoming ball rotation, and the physical properties of the rubber.

There's nothing in physics that says "spin" shots are better or worse than "flat" shots -- in some circumstances (impact speed, incoming spin, and rubber properties), it might be the flat shot that has more total energy. But modern rubbers are generally engineered to be better at storing potential energy (and then releasing it back to the ball) when impacted at an oblique angle to their surface, especially when the incoming ball is already spinning.
 
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For a given racket speed, it's possible that impacting the ball at an oblique angle allows the rubber to store more potential energy than hitting the ball at a normal (90 degree) angle, which could result in a greater combined energy (or quality) of shot.
Highly unlikely. While the topsheet and upper sponge layer do store some tangential elastic energy through shear and stretch, this energy is returned far less efficiently than the normal compression energy from the sponge. So for a given racket speed, an oblique (topspin) impact returns less total mechanical energy (spin + speed) than a flat hit.
 
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Highly unlikely. While the topsheet and upper sponge layer do store some tangential elastic energy through shear and stretch, this energy is returned far less efficiently than the normal compression energy from the sponge. So for a given racket speed, an oblique (topspin) impact returns less total mechanical energy (spin + speed) than a flat hit.
I wouldn't be so sure. The direct (normal) compression of the sponge may be more efficient at storing and returning translational force to the ball, but tangential shear/stretch of the rubber is key for storing and returning the incoming ball's rotational energy, which is often significant.

Even if we assume an incoming ball that isn't spinning at all, I think it is very hard to make general statements (i.e., at any impact speed) about the efficiency of different energy storage/return mechanisms because they are attached and are not linear in displacement (e.g., the sponge can be almost completely uncompressed at very low impact speeds, or bottom out at very high impact speeds).

Edit: btw, how do you know, or why are you so confident, that the energy storage of sponge compression is much more efficient than stretching the topsheet? I admit I don’t know much materials science, so maybe the answer comes from there, but I don’t see much theoretical reason for there to be such a big difference.
 
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I feel the same stifness using Infinity VPS like using ALC or similars, the difference is Infinity is way less hard so a lot of more flex than ALC or similars.
How can you feel the same stiffness and still experience more flex? Those two statements are contradicting each other. Do you actually mean you experience more "dwell" with a softer blade?
 
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The problem in this argument is the "for a given speed" as well as the lack of other parameters.
Does the ball have to land?
Is it a high ball or a low ball?
Does the incoming ball carry a certain spin?
At what point are we measuring?

For the spinsight challenges, they only count a ball when it lands correctly.

OK so typing this I got the science bug and asked GPT to calculate a few things for me:

At 90-100 km/h, spin will increase aerodynamic drag, so the spinny ball would have needed more force to reach the same speed.

The threshold where spin will help to reduce drag is around the 400km/h mark so much much faster.

Now here comes the kicker imo:

Swinging the bat at a 30 degree angle (for a topspin) has approximately 25% less drag than a flat hit.
Plugged in to the rest of the calculation, GPT estimates a racket speed increase of about 2m/s or 7.2km/h for the same swing force.

So take your pick:
Are we talking same force/maximum effort? The spin ball wins by reduced bat drag.

Are we talking about a ball launched at the same speed with spin vs no spin? Spin ball loses because of increasing ball drag.

Are we talking scenarios where the ball is low and has to land? Spin ball will be the only option at some point.

Are we talking high flat vs low spin? Now we're talking about travel distance so do you care about the ball speed or the time between bat and table?
 
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I wouldn't be so sure. The direct (normal) compression of the sponge may be more efficient at storing and returning translational force to the ball, but tangential shear/stretch of the rubber is key for storing and returning the incoming ball's rotational energy, which is often significant.

Even if we assume an incoming ball that isn't spinning at all, I think it is very hard to make general statements (i.e., at any impact speed) about the efficiency of different energy storage/return mechanisms because they are attached and are not linear in displacement (e.g., the sponge can be almost completely uncompressed at very low impact speeds, or bottom out at very high impact speeds).

Edit: btw, how do you know, or why are you so confident, that the energy storage of sponge compression is much more efficient than stretching the topsheet? I admit I don’t know much materials science, so maybe the answer comes from there, but I don’t see much theoretical reason for there to be such a big difference.
You’re right that the sponge and topsheet are coupled and that their behavior is nonlinear with impact speed, so no single efficiency applies across all conditions. But there's a big difference here. Normal compression of the sponge stores and returns energy far more efficiently than tangential shear or stretch of the topsheet. The reason is structural. The sponge is a cellular foam whose cells act like miniature springs—large, reversible deformations with relatively low internal friction—so most of the compression energy is returned as rebound speed. The topsheet is a solid viscoelastic rubber; tangential stretch and shear involve molecular sliding and frictional losses, so much of the energy turns into heat rather than restored motion. Tangential compliance is crucial not for storing and returning rotational energy, but for allowing frictional torque to act long enough to change the ball’s spin.
 
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So my Rubbers are glued now, 190g alltogether, decent weight.
My Z03 seems to be on the heavier side with ≈50g and D05 normal around 47g+-
I will start testing today and onwards. But mainly on FH and ALC side.

Lets see if my impressions translate from my Japan visit. There I tested the same rubbers on a Boll ALC and immediately felt the difference in speed on simple hits. Will keep you updated in the coming days.

Edit/Update: Yes it is faster and can be very spinny. As expected some shots were simpy amazing in the begining, but the longer I played the less I hit the table. Quite demanding for me physically and mentally. Need more time to adjust etc.
Tomorrow I'll flip and play mainly on BH.
 
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So my Rubbers are glued now, 190g alltogether, decent weight.
My Z03 seems to be on the heavier side with ≈50g and D05 normal around 47g+-
I will start testing today and onwards. But mainly on FH and ALC side.

Lets see if my impressions translate from my Japan visit. There I tested the same rubbers on a Boll ALC and immediately felt the difference in speed on simple hits. Will keep you updated in the coming days.
Has anyone got any comparisons of zyre with D05 specifically on the bh. It’s a expensive rubber to test and not like lol…

I have been using fzd alc with H3N prov bs and D05 for over 3 years.

Would like to know if it’s an upgrade to D05 and what any negatives are compared to D05, from reading other reviews blocking can be an issue which is a big part of most players bh.
 
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Has anyone got any comparisons of zyre with D05 specifically on the bh. It’s a expensive rubber to test and not like lol…

I have been using fzd alc with H3N prov bs and D05 for over 3 years.

Would like to know if it’s an upgrade to D05 and what any negatives are compared to D05, from reading other reviews blocking can be an issue which is a big part of most players bh.
Its not a forehand or backhand thing. The dwell time on Zyre is relatively short compared to Dignics and takes some adjusting to. Some pros have not made the change successfully, LYJ reversed it, Diaz reversed it. So it is very much a personal choice whether one wants to make the change or not.

The main advantage of Zyre is that for absolute spin and speed, the kinds of things tested on spinsight, especially in topspin rallies or drive shots, it is the best rubber from a physics standpoint point. But that may not translate to variation or consistency or slow spinny shots or optimal trade-offs for you.

Given the price, the decision to change is unfortunately expensive. But it is definitely individual and for many players used to Dignics forgiveness, might not be worth it.
 
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Has anyone got any comparisons of zyre with D05 specifically on the bh. It’s a expensive rubber to test and not like lol…

I have been using fzd alc with H3N prov bs and D05 for over 3 years.

Would like to know if it’s an upgrade to D05 and what any negatives are compared to D05, from reading other reviews blocking can be an issue which is a big part of most players bh.
I will try a bit and will give some detailed input to that later or so. My prediction: it will be too fast for my current BH so I most likely wont use it there, I lack the consistency there and every other shot wont land near the table. Or it will harm confidence.

For player who have the technique, are very aggressive on BH and can hit 90-100% time after time, this in theory should be an upgrade.
 
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I will try a bit and will give some detailed input to that later or so. My prediction: it will be too fast for my current BH so I most likely wont use it there, I lack the consistency there and every other shot wont land near the table. Or it will harm confidence.

For player who have the technique, are very aggressive on BH and can hit 90-100% time after time, this in theory should be an upgrade.
The funny thing is if you brush thinly without too much power, you can get good slow spin results. It just isn't how you would quite play the shot with Dignics. And that might initially frustrate you. It is not a bad idea to play weaker players with it and relearn attacking empty balls.
 
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How can you feel the same stiffness and still experience more flex? Those two statements are contradicting each other. Do you actually mean you experience more "dwell" with a softer blade?
Easy: all wood blades are way less hard due to not use fibers, carbon or fibers hard the feeling and eliminate the flex (more or less depending de fiber & where is used outer or inner).

Take an all wood blade and try to fold it by grasping the handle and the top of the shovel if moves more or less is the flex of the blade. Also there are exceptions due to kind of wood used, glued and layers number can be more or less flex and the same for fiber blades.

I'm sorry for my all carbon / fiber blades are more or less more hard that all wood blades due to less dwell time.

Stiff and hard are for me two different things.
 
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Has anyone got any comparisons of zyre with D05 specifically on the bh. It’s a expensive rubber to test and not like lol…

I have been using fzd alc with H3N prov bs and D05 for over 3 years.

Would like to know if it’s an upgrade to D05 and what any negatives are compared to D05, from reading other reviews blocking can be an issue which is a big part of most players
Zyre 03 vs D05
Power & speed Zyre 03>D05
Spin Zyre 03>D05
Control D05>Zyre 03
 
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I will try a bit and will give some detailed input to that later or so. My prediction: it will be too fast for my current BH so I most likely wont use it there, I lack the consistency there and every other shot wont land near the table. Or it will harm confidence.

For player who have the technique, are very aggressive on BH and can hit 90-100% time after time, this in theory should be an upgrade.
Honest review, my advice is to try 2.5 version, also use several hours to bourn in and get the maximum of the rubber, don't use the same motion like H3N use only waist, don't use knees and power from the ground like with H3N, impact angle between 35-45º depending how comes the ball and enjoy.
 
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Easy: all wood blades are way less hard due to not use fibers, carbon or fibers hard the feeling and eliminate the flex (more or less depending de fiber & where is used outer or inner).

Take an all wood blade and try to fold it by grasping the handle and the top of the shovel if moves more or less is the flex of the blade. Also there are exceptions due to kind of wood used, glued and layers number can be more or less flex and the same for fiber blades.

I'm sorry for my all carbon / fiber blades are more or less more hard that all wood blades due to less dwell time.

Stiff and hard are for me two different things.
Yes, that is my point. You stated in previous post that, I quote: "I feel the same stifness using Infinity VPS like using ALC or similars, the difference is Infinity is way less hard so a lot of more flex than ALC or similars.".

So I am wondering how you can say that you feel the same stiffness between your all wood infinity VPS and ALC blades. And at the same time experience more flex with it. Those two things are totally contradictory.
 
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Zyre 03 vs D05
Power & speed Zyre 03>D05
Spin Zyre 03>D05
Control D05>Zyre 03
For spin, I would say it depends on technique and playing approach, though I agree most people would find D05 to be more controlled and Z03 faster and more powerful. But spin is definitely technique/style dependent.
 
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