Butterfly Zyre 03

[RefereeNumber2]

You’re right that the sponge and topsheet are coupled and that their behavior is nonlinear with impact speed, so no single efficiency applies across all conditions. But there's a big difference here. Normal compression of the sponge stores and returns energy far more efficiently than tangential shear or stretch of the topsheet. The reason is structural. The sponge is a cellular foam whose cells act like miniature springs—large, reversible deformations with relatively low internal friction—so most of the compression energy is returned as rebound speed. The topsheet is a solid viscoelastic rubber; tangential stretch and shear involve molecular sliding and frictional losses, so much of the energy turns into heat rather than restored motion. Tangential compliance is crucial not for storing and returning rotational energy, but for allowing frictional torque to act long enough to change the ball’s spin.

Thanks. Thinking about it overnight, I now mostly agree with you.

The topsheet and sponge are coupled, so when we deform the topsheet, we’re also compressing the sponge. This is what I had in mind, and you’ve convinced me we would generally want to maximize sponge deformation and minimize topsheet deformation in terms of storage efficiency.

But even if we suppose the energy storage of the topsheet itself is neglible, I still think the geometry of the sponge can be relevant. The sponge is thinnest normally to the racket surface, so hitting obliquely could allow for greater sponge deformation than impacting the ball normally. This would only really be relevant at sufficiently high impact speeds that the sponge is compressed close enough to the physical constraints determined by 1) its thickness and 2) its attachment to the topsheet and blade. But I do think those impact speeds are realistic for in-game situations. As indirect evidence, we know that changing sponge thickness perceptibly changes a rubber’s performance in play, so real-world sponges are often deformed close enough to this limit. In any case, none of this argument deals with how the physical constraints on the sponge affect how efficiently it (and the rest of the racket) can store and return energy, let alone whether it can overcome the energy lost to topsheet deformation.

 

[merlin el mago]

Yes, that is my point. You stated in previous post that, I quote: "I feel the same stifness using Infinity VPS like using ALC or similars, the difference is Infinity is way less hard so a lot of more flex than ALC or similars.".

So I am wondering how you can say that you feel the same stiffness between your all wood infinity VPS and ALC blades. And at the same time experience more flex with it. Those two things are totally contradictory.

Infinity uses 2 layer wood heat treated just under the outer layer, I guess this creates stiffness but not so hard like carbo or fibers, also is a 5 all wood blade so not the same amount of glue like 7 layers blades.

It's very difficult for me to explaint my sensation & feeling, remember I'm note native English speaker.

For me the opposite are flex vs hard. Great Sergio SDC blades link explaning https://www.sdcttblades.com/nerdy-stuff/flex-vs-hardness and stiffness https://www.sdcttblades.com/nerdy-stuff/stiffness

 

[merlin el mago]

For spin, I would say it depends on technique and playing approach, though I agree most people would find D05 to be more controlled and Z03 faster and more powerful. But spin is definitely technique/style dependent.

Yes topspin & backspin depends players skills.

Today doing multiball for a friend I used strong backspin long so my friend have to lift using the power ground, when I used chopping the ball direct to his table side not bouncing first at my side, the chop was terrible with very very heavy backspin so he can't return and he asked me to use the chop first bouncing my table to return the ball, I thing when I toss the ball high and direct chop the ball increased the friction so all matters, I choped with my FH in the left side of the table (I'm right handed) and he was doing topspin with his FH at his right table side, I guess if I do the same chop but instead parallel from my left table side to his right table side still will be still more strong the backspin due to have more long space to made the chop stronger.

Guys repeat I'm very sorry to not speak better English, but when you see how stronger the topspin or backspin can be using this rubber correctly you will see as me how good is, for me have better spin back or top than D09C, better speed than all BTY rubbers still boosted ones, not needed to boost the Zyre-03 I did with my 2.7 but after not boosted my 2.5 understood not needed to boost, no need high speed ALC, ZLC or other kind of fibers simply an Off or maximum Off+ all wood 5 or 7 layers.

If you loves the sensation or feeling how the ball is hold with the sponge this rubber isn't for you, if you do long strokes or big swings surely you lost control, also if you aren't in place before the ball bounce you have more chances to lost the point, so a rubber isn't good for everbody, isn't a forgiving rubber.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes topspin & backspin depends players skills.

Today doing multiball for a friend I used strong backspin long so my friend have to lift using the power ground, when I used chopping the ball direct to his table side not bouncing first at my side, the chop was terrible with very very heavy backspin so can't return and he asked me to use the chop first bouncing my table to return the ball, I thing when I toss the ball high and direct chop the ball increased the friction so all matters, I choped with my FH in the left side of the table (I'm right handed) and he was doing topspin with his FH at his right table side, I guess if I do the same chop but instead parallel from my left table side to his right table side still will be still more strong the backspin due to have more long space to made the chop stronger.

Guys repeat I'm very sorry to not speak better English, but when you see how stronger the topspin or backspin can be using this rubber correctly you will see as me how good is, for me have better spin back or top than D09C, better speed than all BTY rubbers still boosted ones, not needed to boost the Zyre-03 I did with my 2.7 but after not boosted my 2.5 understood not needed to boost, no need high speed ALC, ZLC or other kind of fibers simply an Off or maximum Off+ all wood 5 or 7 layers.

If you loves the sensation or feeling how the ball is hold with the sponge this rubber isn't for you, if you do long strokes or big swings surely you lost control, also if you aren't in place before the ball bounce the ball you have more chances to lost the point, so a rubber isn't good for everbody.

So you think your skills are better than Diaz and Lin Yun Ju who stopped using it? Or Fan Zhendong who dislikes it?

 

[merlin el mago]

So you think your skills are better than Diaz and Lin Yun Ju who stopped using it? Or Fan Zhendong who dislikes it?

I'm not talking about my skills, I'm talking here sharing my experience how can use this rubber. Like I said isn't a rubber for everybody....

Doesn't surprise me FZD don't like, the rubber isn't suited for power from the ground like all chinese all stars pros uses. BTY web says uses D09C so more similar like H3 but with more speed. https://butterflyonline.com/players/zhendong-fan/

About Lin Yun Ju, what blade he's using? ZLC or SZLC because no have enough physical strenght to put power balls like FZD, Hugo Calderano & the others strong players. Surely can't control the rubber with his blade.

Diaz https://butterflyonline.com/players...txq1j32W4n0vmBxhIf_A_kwgNuHMwc6afdwRHBHTpeG0d

Are you WCQ, LSD, LeBrun brothers? Can you share your experience here: yes why not can be helpfull for other people not?

 

[Dr Evil]

Thanks. Thinking about it overnight, I now mostly agree with you.

The topsheet and sponge are coupled, so when we deform the topsheet, we’re also compressing the sponge. This is what I had in mind, and you’ve convinced me we would generally want to maximize sponge deformation and minimize topsheet deformation in terms of storage efficiency.

But even if we suppose the energy storage of the topsheet itself is neglible, I still think the geometry of the sponge can be relevant. The sponge is thinnest normally to the racket surface, so hitting obliquely could allow for greater sponge deformation than impacting the ball normally. This would only really be relevant at sufficiently high impact speeds that the sponge is compressed close enough to the physical constraints determined by 1) its thickness and 2) its attachment to the topsheet and blade. But I do think those impact speeds are realistic for in-game situations. As indirect evidence, we know that changing sponge thickness perceptibly changes a rubber’s performance in play, so real-world sponges are often deformed close enough to this limit. In any case, none of this argument deals with how the physical constraints on the sponge affect how efficiently it (and the rest of the racket) can store and return energy, let alone whether it can overcome the energy lost to topsheet deformation.

Makes sense. If the contact is hard enough to bottom out the rubber (i.e., the normal compression mode is near its elastic limit), adding an oblique component can engage shear deformation that wasn’t active before. This allows the sponge to absorb more mechanical energy than a purely normal hit at the same racket speed. But can it also return more energy? Possibly — if the impact is strong enough to keep the normal component near its elastic limit even at an angle, so that the efficient normal rebound isn’t compromised; if the additional tangential work isn’t lost as frictional heat; and if the contact angle isn’t so extreme that energy is wasted in slippage. This might explain why full-power loops can feel more elastic or lively than flat smashes at comparable racket speeds.

 

[NextLevel]

I'm not talking about my skills, I'm talking here sharing my experience how can use this rubber. Like I said isn't a rubber for everybody....

Doesn't surprise me FZD don't like, the rubber isn't suited for power from the ground like all chinese all stars pros uses. BTY web says uses D09C so more similar like H3 but with more speed. https://butterflyonline.com/players/zhendong-fan/

About Lin Yun Ju, what blade he's using? ZLC or SZLC because no have enough physical strenght to put power balls like FZD, Hugo Calderano & the others strong players. Surely can't control the rubber with his blade.

Diaz https://butterflyonline.com/players...txq1j32W4n0vmBxhIf_A_kwgNuHMwc6afdwRHBHTpeG0d

Are you WCQ, LSD, LeBrun brothers? Can you share your experience here: yes why not can be helpfull for other people not?

Outdated info. Try again.

Adriana Díaz (PUR) | Sponsoring | Butterfly Global Site: Table Tennis Equipment

Adriana Díaz (PUR) | Introduction of Butterfly players, teams, clubs and coaches who play in the top of the world. Table tennis equipment brand Butterfly by Tamasu Co., Ltd. since 1950.

www.butterfly-global.com

My point is that I would not describe the ability to use or the preference to Zyre over Dignics as "skills". It is a preference. I think Z03 is well suited for power from the ground or any such ERT inspired stuff - even Dima and Timo and Togami and Harimoto and Lin Yun Ju use power from the ground, just about every modern professional does. But some people prefer higher dwell time and more ball tolerance than what Z03 gives you. That's why I cited the players who used it for a while and switched back - no one will question their skills, but they didn't like it. So it isn't a skills issue, it is a preference.

 

[merlin el mago]

Outdated info. Try again.

Adriana Díaz (PUR) | Sponsoring | Butterfly Global Site: Table Tennis Equipment

Adriana Díaz (PUR) | Introduction of Butterfly players, teams, clubs and coaches who play in the top of the world. Table tennis equipment brand Butterfly by Tamasu Co., Ltd. since 1950.

www.butterfly-global.com

My point is that I would not describe the ability to use or the preference to Zyre over Dignics as "skills". It is a preference. I think Z03 is well suited for power from the ground or any such ERT inspired stuff - even Dima and Timo and Togami and Harimoto and Lin Yun Ju use power from the ground, just about every modern professional does. But some people prefer higher dwell time and more ball tolerance than what Z03 gives you. That's why I cited the players who used it for a while and switched back - no one will question their skills, but they didn't like it. So it isn't a skills issue, it is a preference.

Try with BTY not me.

Yes it's all about player preferences to suit more or not the way of playing to get more wins.

I didn't tell these people don't have skills, if the rubber doesn't suit the pro way of playing it's difficult still for a pro to change his way of playing because pros wants fast improvements and more benefits than errors.

Why Togami didn't change the rubbers? Could be because the rubbers suits his style of playing to win the points?

Pros are humans not good!!!

 

[NextLevel]

Try with BTY not me.

Yes it's all about player preferences to suit more is way of playing to get more wins.

You are the one who seriously thinks pros like FZD get power from the ground that pros like Dima don't get. Do people still believe such nonsense? ERT should be punished.

 

[merlin el mago]

You are the one who seriously thinks pros like FZD get power from the ground that pros like Dima don't get. Do people still believe such nonsense? ERT should be punished.

FZD get more power from the ground than Dima of course.

Please what's ERT?

 

[NextLevel]

FZD get more power from the ground than Dima of course.

Please what's ERT?

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. No one has measured it. ERT = EmRatThich.

 

[merlin el mago]

If no one measured why you say have equal power from the ground and all pro players have the same power from the ground. What you said is a real nonsense and you be punished, remember you are the guy using ALC not controlling Zyre-03, I said try all wood blade and your answered using Zyre 03 isn't trash with an all wood blade....

 

[NextLevel]

If no one measured why you say have equal power from the ground and all pro players have the same power from the ground. What you said is a real nonsense and you be punished, remember you are the guy using ALC not controlling Zyre-03, I said try all wood blade and your answered using Zyre 03 isn't trash with an all wood blade....

ERT was the youtuber who popularized the stupid idea that European professionals, many of whom have gone to China to train at different points in their lives, do not use power from the ground. I never said everyone uses "equal" "power from the ground", I said everyone at the professional level uses "power from the ground" or their lower body to play table tennis and that people should stop citing power from the ground as a difference between European and Chinese or Asian table tennis as the professional level. The whole thing is whay I always wince when someone says an Asiam player uses power from the ground and then says a non-Asian player does not. Any player not using power from the ground is not a top level professional TT player no matter what country he is from. There are some real differences in style between European and Chinese TT but power from the ground is not one of them. Definitely not in 2017 to 2025.

So the pros using ALC blades with ZYre 03 are controlling it and you using Zyre 03 with all wood blade are controlling it, but me I an not? OK then. You're on your own there, buddy.

 

[PoppaChubby]

Power from the ground is a really new concept, it emerged since the plastic ball became the standard. Before that you could use power from your wrist and arm only with tensor and speed glue, only because the celluloïd ball didn't require so much power. Patrick Chila said right after the plastic ball introduction that many pro athletes suffered from shoulder injuries, because the ball was heavier and did not produced that much spin.

Gatien was the first cloudwalker before Xu Xin, his footwork was perfect, and it had to cos' he was mainly playing with his FH, having a really poor BH. Zoki, Waldner and Samsonov, same. The first one that brought a really physical style of play, and you can say there power from the ground was Jean-Michel Saive. It's the speed glue ban that forced the players to go more physical, then tensor/tenergy rubbers arrived, less physical, then the plastic ball arrived and a more physical game came again.

But now Truls is showing us you can win big without having so much "power from the ground", just by using variations like Waldner did. The faux top-spins, his specialty as also Alexis Lebrun's one though Alexis is more powerfull player, is something asian players have really difficulties to deal with, or even the germans, you go for a counter with a more closed angle wrist and... down the net ! they scratches their head and don't understand. Alexis serving empty flat balls to Dima when he beat him the first time they met was also special, it's something every amateur player knows how to hide it from your opponent in France: faux backspin pushes, faux serves, faux topspins, it forces your opponents to do more mental effort to read the ball. I can't remember how many ball I've thrown away too long with a BH push when I started my TT journey as a total noob, all the veterans did that to me: true push - true push - faux push, your ball then gets higher and then they kill you without any effort. Faux topspin, you block with a closed angle... down the net. Faux backspin serve with the FH, you push your receive... out, too long.

Or you loop the balls again again and again, the blocks always come the sames, then suddenly a scrappy block with a slow ball in the middle of the tablle, but you're too far away, it's an empty ball, you still want to loop it, but it falls down the ground.

Do you need so much from the ground then ? well, as long as the technologies will help not using so much power from the ground, it will be back to the speed glue cell ball style of play again.

 

[merlin el mago]

ERT was the youtuber who popularized the stupid idea that European professionals, many of whom have gone to China to train at different points in their lives, do not use power from the ground. I never said everyone uses "equal" "power from the ground", I said everyone at the professional level uses "power from the ground" or their lower body to play table tennis and that people should stop citing power from the ground as a difference between European and Chinese or Asian table tennis as the professional level. The whole thing is whay I always wince when someone says an Asiam player uses power from the ground and then says a non-Asian player does not. Any player not using power from the ground is not a top level professional TT player no matter what country he is from. There are some real differences in style between European and Chinese TT but power from the ground is not one of them. Definitely not in 2017 to 2025.

So the pros using ALC blades with ZYre 03 are controlling it and you using Zyre 03 with all wood blade are controlling it, but me I an not? OK then. You're on your own there, buddy.

You aren't more skilled like me buddy...

 

[NextLevel]

You aren't more skilled like me buddy...

It's okay. That's not what we are discussing here. That said, you can join the people at the TTD meet up next year and show your skills.

 

[NextLevel]

Power from the ground is a really new concept, it emerged since the plastic ball became the standard. Before that you could use power from your wrist and arm only with tensor and speed glue, only because the celluloïd ball didn't require so much power. Patrick Chila said right after the plastic ball introduction that many pro athletes suffered from shoulder injuries, because the ball was heavier and did not produced that much spin.

Gatien was the first cloudwalker before Xu Xin, his footwork was perfect, and it had to cos' he was mainly playing with his FH, having a really poor BH. Zoki, Waldner and Samsonov, same. The first one that brought a really physical style of play, and you can say there power from the ground was Jean-Michel Saive. It's the speed glue ban that forced the players to go more physical, then tensor/tenergy rubbers arrived, less physical, then the plastic ball arrived and a more physical game came again.

But now Truls is showing us you can win big without having so much "power from the ground", just by using variations like Waldner did. The faux top-spins, his specialty as also Alexis Lebrun's one though Alexis is more powerfull player, is something asian players have really difficulties to deal with, or even the germans, you go for a counter with a more closed angle wrist and... down the net ! they scratches their head and don't understand. Alexis serving empty flat balls to Dima when he beat him the first time they met was also special, it's something every amateur player knows how to hide it from your opponent in France: faux backspin pushes, faux serves, faux topspins, it forces your opponents to do more mental effort to read the ball. I can't remember how many ball I've thrown away too long with a BH push when I started my TT journey as a total noob, all the veterans did that to me: true push - true push - faux push, your ball then gets higher and then they kill you without any effort. Faux topspin, you block with a closed angle... down the net. Faux backspin serve with the FH, you push your receive... out, too long.

Or you loop the balls again again and again, the blocks always come the sames, then suddenly a scrappy block with a slow ball in the middle of the tablle, but you're too far away, it's an empty ball, you still want to loop it, but it falls down the ground.

Do you need so much from the ground then ? well, as long as the technologies will help not using so much power from the ground, it will be back to the speed glue cell ball style of play again.

Power from The ground was always a concept, it just became a bigger deal as the ball became bigger at every level. My main point though is that top level table tennis apart from athletic physicality, has been pretty physical regardless of continent and there has been exchange of ideas at the pro level for decades. Yes arm overuse was easier when the ball was smaller but no modern pro ( since 2000) has ever played power shots without weight transfer, it has always been a matter of degree. Sticky rubbers affected technique as well. But it is annoying to hear people take the idea from ERT as if countries haven't sent players to China to train for decades.

 

[Tyce]

Infinity uses 2 layer wood heat treated just under the outer layer, I guess this creates stiffness but not so hard like carbo or fibers, also is a 5 all wood blade so not the same amount of glue like 7 layers blades.

It's very difficult for me to explaint my sensation & feeling, remember I'm note native English speaker.

For me the opposite are flex vs hard. Great Sergio SDC blades link explaning https://www.sdcttblades.com/nerdy-stuff/flex-vs-hardness and stiffness https://www.sdcttblades.com/nerdy-stuff/stiffness

The link is great, but you interpret it wrong.

Flex is the opposite of stiffness
Soft is the opposite of hard

Stiff and soft blades exist, flexible and hard blades exist. Stiff and flexible doesn't.

 

[NextLevel]

The link is great, but you interpret it wrong.

Flex is the opposite of stiffness
Soft is the opposite of hard

Stiff and soft blades exist, flexible and hard blades exist. Stiff and flexible doesn't.

Yes he does, and this has been pointed but to him already but to no avail.

 

[NextLevel]

Dima has tbe Zyre, Harimoto not so much lol....