Can a European Forehand have advantages over a Chinese style forehand?

[DrBean]

My take is this whole topic is a false dichotomy that’s bolstered by confirmation bias, the human tendency for binary categorization, and optical illusions, possibly because a lot of old CNT players used penhold and biomechanically your arm does extend a bit straighter. But look at how Wang Liqin loops when he has time and tell me he does it with a straight arm.

The optical illusion part is probably Chinese players tend to rotate their torsos more. Watch how Ma Long, ZJK, or FZD conduct their loops. They really aren't moving as much as people think, and the arm position is a result, not a focal point.

I also feel like Timo, being around the top for as long as he was, drove the perception of a short, European FH style. But (almost) nobody other than Timo plays FH like that. Truls is one example of someone who actually has very large movements (which in my opinion contributes to his inconsistent performances), and last I checked he hasn't registered for PRC citizenship.

I learned (from a retired CNT coach) to 快带 (fast loop?) before I learned how to 拉 (loop). It wasn't dogmatic, it was practical. The fast loop for when you need it fast and loop for when you have time and space to set up.

There's a similar false dichotomy in Olympic Weightlifting, where people talk about the "Chinese" vs "Russian/Western" method.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

My take is this whole topic is a false dichotomy that’s bolstered by confirmation bias, the human tendency for binary categorization, and optical illusions, possibly because a lot of old CNT players used penhold and biomechanically your arm does extend a bit straighter. But look at how Wang Liqin loops when he has time and tell me he does it with a straight arm.

The optical illusion part is probably Chinese players tend to rotate their torsos more. Watch how Ma Long, ZJK, or FZD conduct their loops. They really aren't moving as much as people think, and the arm position is a result, not a focal point.

I also feel like Timo, being around the top for as long as he was, drove the perception of a short, European FH style. But (almost) nobody other than Timo plays FH like that. Truls is one example of someone who actually has very large movements (which in my opinion contributes to his inconsistent performances), and last I checked he hasn't registered for PRC citizenship.

I learned (from a retired CNT coach) to 快带 (fast loop?) before I learned how to 拉 (loop). It wasn't dogmatic, it was practical. The fast loop for when you need it fast and loop for when you have time and space to set up.

There's a similar false dichotomy in Olympic Weightlifting, where people talk about the "Chinese" vs "Russian/Western" method.

Great post. You are spot on. This is one of those things that internet amateurs will continue to insist upon (probably because they read some other internet amateur say it and took it as truth). Real coaches either Chinese or European are not spending significant focus on how far your elbow is from your body and how far you swing your arm at all times, it is all situational, things that players develop their personal preferences for over time based on their shot selection, and also dependent on your body.

 

[TenPercentWinRate]

Good to know! I’ll be more aware on what I consume on the internet and hope that I don’t get table tennis stroke poisoning.

 

[TenPercentWinRate]

My take is this whole topic is a false dichotomy that’s bolstered by confirmation bias, the human tendency for binary categorization, and optical illusions, possibly because a lot of old CNT players used penhold and biomechanically your arm does extend a bit straighter. But look at how Wang Liqin loops when he has time and tell me he does it with a straight arm.

The optical illusion part is probably Chinese players tend to rotate their torsos more. Watch how Ma Long, ZJK, or FZD conduct their loops. They really aren't moving as much as people think, and the arm position is a result, not a focal point.

I also feel like Timo, being around the top for as long as he was, drove the perception of a short, European FH style. But (almost) nobody other than Timo plays FH like that. Truls is one example of someone who actually has very large movements (which in my opinion contributes to his inconsistent performances), and last I checked he hasn't registered for PRC citizenship.

I learned (from a retired CNT coach) to 快带 (fast loop?) before I learned how to 拉 (loop). It wasn't dogmatic, it was practical. The fast loop for when you need it fast and loop for when you have time and space to set up.

There's a similar false dichotomy in Olympic Weightlifting, where people talk about the "Chinese" vs "Russian/Western" method.

I guess that’s why my penhold backswing is straighter.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Spoiler: Chinese style FH loop: Wow! 🤩

Spoiler: Euro style FH loop: Meh!

View attachment acae66f5-9730-4539-8634-722ede71e6c2.mp4

 

[zeio]

It should be stressed that the Chinese terms 快帶 (quick guide) and 快拉 (quick loop) refer to 2 different strokes (but share a logical connection). 快帶 is a semi-defensive stroke with a more hitting element (where the player redirects the ball back), the logical extension of 快攻 (quick attack/drive/counter-hit) from the short-pips style that got carried over to the inverted style. 快拉, a "subtype" of the standard, full-fledged 拉/loop stroke in my previous post, is an offensive stroke with a more brushing element and active generation of force from the player and less borrowing of momentum from the oncoming shot.

防守与快带的区别及动作演示 #乒乓球教学 #pingpong #tabletennis (Difference between defense [in this case 平擋/flat block] and quick guide)
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WJlx9KxUhFQ

正手快带其实很简单，全世爆国手陈丰教学【字幕】 (FH quick guide is actually very simple | Quan Shi Bao national player Chen Feng Tutorial [Chinese subtitle])
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYMSR2RV7Ek

(This is a good one, showing that they are logical extensions of a "primary stroke")
正手快带没那么难！前国手兰曦教你快带与拉球原理！【字幕】 (FH quick guide is not that hard! Former national player Lan Xi walks you through the principles of the quick guide and loop! [Chinese subtitle])
https://youtu.be/ynKEXTyaxLc?t=122

Note that 快拉/quick loop is not to be confused with 前衝弧圈/fast loop [literally forward-thrust/rush loop] and 加轉弧圈/slow loop [literally add-spin loop] that are often seen in my translations, where quick is used for loop strokes and fast for loop shots. Many if not most tutorials in Chinese, for being a high-context language, rarely make that definition/distinction clear to their viewers when the terms are thrown around, leading to a lot of confusion even among Chinese themselves.

https://www.google.com/search?q=stroke+vs+shot
AI Overview
In racket sports like tennis, badminton, and pickleball,
a stroke is the fundamental, biomechanical movement or swing of the racket, while a shot is the specific, intended result (e.g., placement, speed, spin) of that action. A stroke is the motion (e.g., forehand swing), and the shot is the outcome (e.g., a cross-court winner).

This wiki entry is a good one, making the distinction between 拉球 and 抽球.
https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/弧圈球

弧圈球，為一項乒乓球攻防技術，有時又稱作拉球（但不同於「抽球」，「抽球」一般指不依賴旋轉的快攻），為藉以球與球拍膠面摩擦，致球向前方向高速旋轉，即上旋。

(Topspin [literally arc loop ball] is a table tennis offensive and defensive technique, sometimes called a loop [literally pull ball] (but it is different from "drive [literally draw ball]," which generally refers to a quick attack that does not rely on spin). It is achieved by using the friction between the ball and the rubber surface of the racket to cause the ball to spin at high speed in the forward direction, i.e., topspin.)