"Euro" vs "Chinese" Play Style

[yuri.saldon]

So you think the Chinese are superior in just "the attacking forehand". So things like serve and serve receive and short game play (remember that the average rally in table tennis is usually less than 4 shots) - where did that factor into your analysis? Rally strokes or sometimes third ball strokes don't matter if you don't get an opportunity to use them.

But again, you are still not addressing the amount of investment that China makes in table tennis. Where else in the world do you have who schools and provincial systems and clubs dedicated to creating and selecting table tennis professionals? Otrwhere former players at the highest level are the national team coaches throughout the system and are massively compensated?

Some of the innovations that China is making today are simply ideas that were founded in Western TT (Sweden most notoriously) and were built into Chinese training. But of course, the Chinese gave us multiball and other things, so such sharing and continuous innovation never really ends.

Many people acknowledge that the Chinese forehand techniques are superior in a variety of ways. But if you think that is what separates them from the West, you are being pretty naive. China invests a lot into everything about table tennis. I gave the example of failing racket control multiple times after the speed glue ban. They clearly boost. They host major events when the rest of the world cannot fund or support them. TT as an ITTF supported sport would probably die without Chinese support.

Even on the forehand, Timo Boll has publicly said that the equipment he uses will not support Ma Long's technique. No one sells MA Long's rubber and by all accounts, it is heavily boosted, against the ITTF regulations. Does that matter to you?

Apart from *maybe* Ma Long, every player in the world has technical errors if one is looking for textbook perfection. At the highest level, it is more than technique that makes you a winner. Top level pros don't use textbook technique - their technique checks the boxes for certain things and the rest is evolutionary development.

Only chineses have dhs blue sponge rubbers but a majority of professional player around the world boost their rubbers. Timo boll said 80% off professional player, not 80% of chinese players. But I agree with you they have the better TT rubber (for professionals at least)

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[Epid3xia]

So you think the Chinese are superior in just "the attacking forehand". So things like serve and serve receive and short game play (remember that the average rally in table tennis is usually less than 4 shots) - where did that factor into your analysis? Rally strokes or sometimes third ball strokes don't matter if you don't get an opportunity to use them.

But again, you are still not addressing the amount of investment that China makes in table tennis. Where else in the world do you have who schools and provincial systems and clubs dedicated to creating and selecting table tennis professionals? Otrwhere former players at the highest level are the national team coaches throughout the system and are massively compensated?

Some of the innovations that China is making today are simply ideas that were founded in Western TT (Sweden most notoriously) and were built into Chinese training. But of course, the Chinese gave us multiball and other things, so such sharing and continuous innovation never really ends.

Many people acknowledge that the Chinese forehand techniques are superior in a variety of ways. But if you think that is what separates them from the West, you are being pretty naive. China invests a lot into everything about table tennis. I gave the example of failing racket control multiple times after the speed glue ban. They clearly boost. They host major events when the rest of the world cannot fund or support them. TT as an ITTF supported sport would probably die without Chinese support.

Even on the forehand, Timo Boll has publicly said that the equipment he uses will not support Ma Long's technique. No one sells MA Long's rubber and by all accounts, it is heavily boosted, against the ITTF regulations. Does that matter to you?

Apart from *maybe* Ma Long, every player in the world has technical errors if one is looking for textbook perfection. At the highest level, it is more than technique that makes you a winner. Top level pros don't use textbook technique - their technique checks the boxes for certain things and the rest is evolutionary development.

I have never said that the superior forehand technique is the only thing that seperates the Chinese from the west. But next to the different style of footwork it is the most different thing to the "euro" technique department there is. And I see that those two things are important.

Now how do you want to compete if you have inferior training which results in that everything is inferior? Talent, cleverness, technique.
Schlager, Waldner, Boll. They were not good because of hard work in their childhood or because of chinese-like infrastructure of TT in their countries.

What can you teach anybody?
Strategy and technique.
And if this kid of 8 years who happens to become one of the most talented and clever players in the world learns good technique and strategy, I bet he can beat the chinese and change the feel of the dictaturship of the chinese. Maybe he can't beat all of them and not on a regularly basis.

That's the essence of what I wanted to say.

 

[Epid3xia]

I forgot to mention the equipment discussion. Who knows how good this Hurricane 3 Neo National Blue Sponge boosted with 5 layers of Falco Tempo Long and maybe a tear of an unicorn realy is. Neither do most people know about how good a boosted Tenergy 05 is and if there are special pro version either. But the ones who don't boost have a massive disadvantage.

I guess the H3 of the CNT are better than the T05 of other pros. Maybe it is enough that if one of two similarly good players uses the H3 wins over the one with the T05 all the time. And if it is so, well, good job ITTF.

 

[Gene Tuttle]

I forgot to mention the equipment discussion. Who knows how good this Hurricane 3 Neo National Blue Sponge boosted with 5 layers of Falco Tempo Long and maybe a tear of an unicorn realy is. Neither do most people know about how good a boosted Tenergy 05 is and if there are special pro version either. But the ones who don't boost have a massive disadvantage.

I guess the H3 of the CNT are better than the T05 of other pros. Maybe it is enough that if one of two similarly good players uses the H3 wins over the one with the T05 all the time. And if it is so, well, good job ITTF.

Its a question of ethics. The whole China superiority issue with boosting and proprietary rubbers reminds me of the Russian (and others) track and field (cycling)(baseball) dominance where ultimately the players were busted for repeated blood doping and banned substance abuses and had to give back the gold medals and titles they won. Many people said we must do what they do if we want to compete. Why not just make it legal if it is currently unenforceable? If you want to win at all costs because everyone else cheats then buy in to the unethical, non conformist trend, evade the regulations method. So the question is: Win a gold medal ,(ITTF championship, world cycling medal, home-run record) but have to give it back? Or just place well with with the knowledge that in the record books you will never have a asterisk next to your name?

 

[NextLevel]

I have never said that the superior forehand technique is the only thing that seperates the Chinese from the west. But next to the different style of footwork it is the most different thing to the "euro" technique department there is. And I see that those two things are important.

Now how do you want to compete if you have inferior training which results in that everything is inferior? Talent, cleverness, technique.
Schlager, Waldner, Boll. They were not good because of hard work in their childhood or because of chinese-like infrastructure of TT in their countries.

What can you teach anybody?
Strategy and technique.
And if this kid of 8 years who happens to become one of the most talented and clever players in the world learns good technique and strategy, I bet he can beat the chinese and change the feel of the dictaturship of the chinese. Maybe he can't beat all of them and not on a regularly basis.

That's the essence of what I wanted to say.

The issues are more complicated than that. What you need to appreciate is that the Chinese are pushing in lots of athletes and producing lots of TT players and sending those at the very top to compete. One of the three greatest Nigerian and African players of all time, Segun Toriola, said he played table tennis because he was too slim to play soccer. ZJK was supposed to be a soccer (football) player but China has no soccer system!

In the world today, table tennis is a small fry sport. You aren't going to get top athletes going there unless something interesting just gets them there. Brian Pace's mother probably is still fairly annoyed that her physically gifted son chose table tennis when he could have made money in college and NFL as an American football player (but of course, with concussions all over the place, who knows). If one country is sending its best athletes into a sport and putting them through a very tough process, while other countries are not as invested, of course, that country, given its population and resources, should be ahead, all other things being equal. And there are reasons to believe they are not.

I love CNT technique. Anyone who looks at my videos can see that I am a relatively straight arm technique player, even with my mobility limitations. But I dislike the bias of some people who believe that everything CNT is special and the proper way to play TT. And I don't believe the CNT backhand is necessarily inferior to the Euro backhand either or vice versa. I believe that it is hard to compete with China given how much they have invested in TT - no other country takes the sport even half as seriously. This will change in 50 years or so as China exposes itself to other sports just because China is investing more broadly, but not in the near future. Of course, I hope TT will still be a great sport when China de-emphasizes it.

 

[Gene Tuttle]

Sounds like the old Karate(power) vs Kung Fu (speed) argument. striking first (third ball) has obvious advantages over steady powerful spins and smashes but only if your able to keep the initiative and you are able to keep the opponent reacting to your shots defensively. Each exchange that your opponent manages to return the ball takes away your initiative and allows the wider strokes of European play to gain an initiative and win the point. When your third ball attack fails you must immediately swap to fifth ball attack or you will end up defensive and reactive. A loss in focus/ mental clarity leads to a loss of initiative and a reliance on reflex over planning.

 

[laistrogian]

The issues are more complicated than that. What you need to appreciate is that the Chinese are pushing in lots of athletes and producing lots of TT players and sending those at the very top to compete. One of the three greatest Nigerian and African players of all time, Segun Toriola, said he played table tennis because he was too slim to play soccer. ZJK was supposed to be a soccer (football) player but China has no soccer system!

In the world today, table tennis is a small fry sport. You aren't going to get top athletes going there unless something interesting just gets them there. Brian Pace's mother probably is still fairly annoyed that her physically gifted son chose table tennis when he could have made money in college and NFL as an American football player (but of course, with concussions all over the place, who knows). If one country is sending its best athletes into a sport and putting them through a very tough process, while other countries are not as invested, of course, that country, given its population and resources, should be ahead, all other things being equal. And there are reasons to believe they are not.

I love CNT technique. Anyone who looks at my videos can see that I am a relatively straight arm technique player, even with my mobility limitations. But I dislike the bias of some people who believe that everything CNT is special and the proper way to play TT. And I don't believe the CNT backhand is necessarily inferior to the Euro backhand either or vice versa. I believe that it is hard to compete with China given how much they have invested in TT - no other country takes the sport even half as seriously. This will change in 50 years or so as China exposes itself to other sports just because China is investing more broadly, but not in the near future. Of course, I hope TT will still be a great sport when China de-emphasizes it.

I dont see why china would de-emphasize it when they get plenty of olympic medals from it. It's also one of the most played sports in china which means it's easier to get the talented pool of players

 

[NextLevel]

I dont see why china would de-emphasize it when they get plenty of olympic medals from it. It's also one of the most played sports in china which means it's easier to get the talented pool of players

They are becoming more exposed to basketball and other sports and there seems to be a shift amongst the youth towards the more mainstream team sports with larger professional pay. It's going to happen over time.

 

[Gene Tuttle]

It is no different than any other corporation deciding to diversify from their core values which made them successful into lines of business which seem more lucrative. Your core values generally go down in quality because you have less resources devoted to them but your overall revenue goes up. You win less Table tennis championships but you start to catch up in basketball and track and field.

 

[Baal]

I have never said that the superior forehand technique is the only thing that seperates the Chinese from the west. But next to the different style of footwork it is the most different thing to the "euro" technique department there is. And I see that those two things are important.

Now how do you want to compete if you have inferior training which results in that everything is inferior? Talent, cleverness, technique.
Schlager, Waldner, Boll. They were not good because of hard work in their childhood or because of chinese-like infrastructure of TT in their countries.

What can you teach anybody?
Strategy and technique.
And if this kid of 8 years who happens to become one of the most talented and clever players in the world learns good technique and strategy, I bet he can beat the chinese and change the feel of the dictaturship of the chinese. Maybe he can't beat all of them and not on a regularly basis.

That's the essence of what I wanted to say.

Watch Schlager carefully. His footwork was not bad, far to the contrary it was (and is) amazing. He had some of the most efficient footwork in the history of the game, and these days he tries to teach it. I think you are right that it is remarkable that he was able to be so good coming from Austria.

Waldner at the time he came up was not exactly coming of age in a table tennis dessert!

 

[Baal]

I dont see why china would de-emphasize it when they get plenty of olympic medals from it. It's also one of the most played sports in china which means it's easier to get the talented pool of players

Because the Chinese themselves view table tennis as a low-prestige sport globally compared to the things they want to be good it, mainly football and basketball. They also are aware that they can cut back a great deal on their current enormous investment in table tennis and still dominate pretty much forever. As for medals, there are a lot more to be had in gymnastics and swimming (for example) just because there are more events.

 

[Gene Tuttle]

Its the whole National empowerment era with China. They are growing as we did in the 50's and starting to feel better about themselves on a world economic, military and athletic stage. They greatly expand trade. They build islands in the Pacific to expand territorial dominance. They diversify their athletic focus. They buy up U.S. dept to insulate themselves from negative repercussions from their actions. Check out U.S foreign policy in the post WW2 era to understand how a nation evolves with a growing middle class and how table tennis will eventually lose prominence in China as other sports take a larger and larger portion of their cultural budget in order to compete on a world stage with established countries.

 

[izra]

What can you teach anybody?
Strategy and technique.
And if this kid of 8 years who happens to become one of the most talented and clever players in the world learns good technique and strategy, I bet he can beat the chinese and change the feel of the dictaturship of the chinese. Maybe he can't beat all of them and not on a regularly basis.

not really, no. he will still have very little chance against the chinese because his training regime will be much weaker. in the 70's dragutin surbek had a training regime that none of the yugoslavian baksetball or football players could follow. he worked his body so hard that soon after his career has ended he was forced to have surgery on both his hips and today he has severe problems with his hips and knees. in the 80's the swedes practiced like mad all day every day. today asia is far ahead of europe in that department and all of the best players (cnt members) are isolated to train with each other.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

"Euro" vs "Chinese" Play Style

Yeah, I think Epid3xia is still being way too naive.

Why is he calling the footwork Chinese? Good footwork....it probably is just, um, good footwork. I don't really think there is a Chinese style of footwork. I just think they have trained their footwork better.

If the top Chinese players work on everything more and are better at everything, some of it really does have to do with simply the amount and quality of training. I could only imagine how good a crazy talent like Michael Maze would have been with that systematic approach to training.

One of the advantages I believe, that NextLevel is talking about, in the equipment area is: Butterfly will supply players from any country with their rubbers. DHS will not supply non-Chinese pros with the rubbers that Ma Long uses. There is a problem with that: that ZJK has access to and can use the same wood and rubbers that Timo Boll uses but Timo Boll can't get access one of the rubbers that ZJK uses.

And the boost that the CNT uses on those rubbers, it definitely isn't Falco, and it is also something that nobody else really has access to. Is it VOC free? I don't think so.

So the CNT can get what everyone else is using. But nobody outside of the CNT can really get what the CNT players use.

The amount of training from an early age PAID FOR BY THE GOVERNMENT, the kind of fierce scouting and selection process that is equivalent to what professional sports teams do to find talent, done by the government with kids very young. The incentive for parents to want their children selected and trained. I mean, come on. It's silly that this is really a topic the way it is being framed.

Chinese footwork?
Chinese forehand?
Chinese serves? Are the serves Chinese? I mean?
How about flips, is there a Chinese flip? Does Ovtcharov do a Chinese backhand flip? Even though he was doing it before almost any of the Chinese were?
How about the Chinese counterloop?

Come on man. If you took a 2800 player and had him play with 2600 level players, almost everything the 2800 player did would be a little better in almost every way.

Just go and read the thread that is about the difference between a 2100 level player and a 2500 level player and that explains the nuts and bolts of what is really the difference.

And stop the silly racial Chinese vs ______ thing.

I mean Ryu Seung Min had amazing footwork AND IT WAS NOT CHINESE FOOTWORK. He is KOREAN. But his footwork wasn't different in style to most other footwork. It was just great footwork. You know how he trained that? TWO TABLES. COVERING TWO TABLES WITH JUST THE FH.

But that kind of game can't be sustained for as long because of how much he had to move to cover the whole table with his FH. As you get older than 27-28 that game gets harder and harder to sustain because your body starts getting weaker at a certain age.

He Zhe Wen is Chinese and he barely moves at all but he is amazing. Does he use "Chinese" footwork? Come on. Stop being silly.

And the European players who play longer, cannot get up to the kind of physical ability levels that a kid who had the training from 4 years old can get to. The plasticity of the brain and nervous system between 6-12 and the ability to learn and absorb is totally different than when you are in your late 20s and after. And that means the CNT player's training is complete when they hit their physical peak which is at about 24-28. Wang Liqin and Ma Lin are both younger than Samsonov. But they are finished, not because they can't still play. But because the CNT has too many young players coming up to take their spots. Those guys would still be the best player in a lot of countries.

The Europeans who played till later stuck around because they were able to play tactically well enough as their body was slowly fading. Samsonov is damn smart. But he doesn't have the physical tools he had 15 years ago.

Now stop this silly Chinese vs Europe nonsense and understand that if there is only one country in the world that takes this sport that seriously and puts that much of its resources into developing their athletes, it is their hard work and dedication that has made it so they SIMPLY PLAY AT A HIGHER LEVEL. But it doesn't come down to their style of play except in that they do almost everything so damn much better than anyone else.

Really, after the top 4 players, there is a big drop in level. Ma Long beats Ovtcharov (#5 in the world) 4-0: -2, -3, -2, -5. It's not because of style. It's because he is WAY BETTER.


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[ttmonster]

I think he has got it terribly wrong , Egyptian hieroglyphics are more suited to be called footwork if anything is

Yeah, I think Epid3xia is still being way too naive.

Why is he calling the footwork Chinese? Good footwork....it probably is just, um, good footwork. I don't really think there is a Chinese style of footwork. I just think they have trained their footwork better.

If the top Chinese players work on everything more and are better at everything, some of it really does have to do with simply the amount and quality of training. I could only imagine how good a crazy talent like Michael Maze would have been with that systematic approach to training.

One of the advantages I believe, that NextLevel is talking about, in the equipment area is: Butterfly will supply players from any country with their rubbers. DHS will not supply non-Chinese pros with the rubbers that Ma Long uses. There is a problem with that: that ZJK has access to and can use the same wood and rubbers that Timo Boll uses but Timo Boll can't get access one of the rubbers that ZJK uses.

And the boost that the CNT uses on those rubbers, it definitely isn't Falco, and it is also something that nobody else really has access to. Is it VOC free? I don't think so.

So the CNT can get what everyone else is using. But nobody outside of the CNT can really get what the CNT players use.

The amount of training from an early age PAID FOR BY THE GOVERNMENT, the kind of fierce scouting and selection process that is equivalent to what professional sports teams do to find talent, done by the government with kids very young. The incentive for parents to want their children selected and trained. I mean, come on. It's silly that this is really a topic the way it is being framed.

Chinese footwork?
Chinese forehand?
Chinese serves? Are the serves Chinese? I mean?
How about flips, is there a Chinese flip? Does Ovtcharov do a Chinese backhand flip? Even though he was doing it before almost any of the Chinese were?
How about the Chinese counterloop?

Come man. If you took a 2800 player and had him play with 2600 level players, almost everything the 2800 player did would be a little better in almost every way.

Just go and read the thread that is about the difference between a 2100 level player and a 2500 level player and that explains the nuts and bolts of what is really the difference.

And stop the silly racial Chinese vs:

I mean Ryu Seung Min had amazing footwork AND IT WAS NOT CHINESE FOOTWORK. He is KOREAN. But that kind of game can't be sustained for as long because of how much he had to move to cover the whole table with his FH.

He Zhe Wen is Chinese and he barely moves at all but he is amazing. Does he use "Chinese" footwork? Come on. Stop being silly.

And the European players who play longer, cannot get to the kind of levels that a kid who had the training from 4 years old can get. The plasticity of the brain and nervous system between 6-12 and the ability to learn and absorb is totally different than when you are in your late 20s after. And that means their training is complete when they hit their physical peak which is at about 24-28.

The Europeans who played till later stuck around because they were able to play tactically well enough as their body was slowly fading. Samsonov is damn smart. But he doesn't have the physical tools he had 15 years ago.

Now stop this silly Chinese vs Europe nonsense and understand that if there is only one country in the world that takes this sport that seriously and puts that much resources into developing their athletes, it is their hard work and dedication that has made it so they SIMPLY PLAY AT A HIGHER LEVEL. But it doesn't come down to their style of play except in that they do almost everything so damn much better than anyone else.


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[Gene Tuttle]

Upside down Carl has it right. Whatever sport a nation fully endorses and has kids train and play from a young age is going to produce more high level participants than another nation that doesn't. Its not that other countries won't have some good participants but not near the number of the country that has a large number of the kids playing and their country providing world class training.. U.S. in basketball, Argentina in polo,1963-1976 Russian Ice Hockey, Brazil world cup soccer titles, Italian fencing.

 

[NextLevel]

Upside down Carl has it right. Whatever sport a nation fully endorses and has kids train and play from a young age is going to produce more high level participants than another nation that doesn't. Its not that other countries won't have some good participants but not near the number of the country that has a large number of the kids playing and their country providing world class training.. U.S. in basketball, Argentina in polo,1963-1976 Russian Ice Hockey, Brazil world cup soccer titles, Italian fencing.

I preferred the Chinese forehand explanation - this is too simple!!

 

[ttmonster]

Here you go ....

I preferred the Chinese forehand explanation - this is too simple!!

 

[izra]

naturally djokovic wins everything when he has that serbian forehand going for him.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

naturally djokovic wins everything when he has that serbian forehand going for him.

Yep. The rest of the world really needs to learn the Serbian FH otherwise they will not be able to compete. The Serbian FH is the real key.