Classic Defense Set Up

[LittleSeki]

Would the butterfly innerforce ZLF be suited for a defence play with long pips?
I guess if it is okay for defence, than more fore modern than classic, right?

or is this blade to fast?

i ask because i have one at home.

 

[merlin el mago]

I know people using ZLF for classic defence with sucess.

 

[LittleSeki]

okay, also innerforce and not maybe innershield?
the innerforce would be the cheapest option without buying a new blade, but if it to fast i dont need to test it, because the other defensive blades are oversized and the rubber dont fit then.

 

[merlin el mago]

It's innershield layer ZLF the only one for defense.

My point is that you don't need an ultra-expensive blade to play well.

 

[James Z]

So a short pip with grip would be also an option if i am not wrong?

You are wrong.& very very wrong.

Short pips for chopping (as a weak side rubber) is pure garbage because
1. It is a marketing gimmick for the most part
2. It is a proposal by those who have no clue about the history & operational mechanics of short pips and long pips
3. and last but not least, as far as weakside pips (& back spin & versatility& overall effectiveness) goes , chickens (short pips) can fly a little, doves (medium pips) can fly a little higher and bar-headed geese (LARC long pips) can fly much higher but Ruppell’s vulture (High Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips) can soar the highest


You will aslso find more information as to why short pips is garbage as weak side rubber
http://dittf.atwebpages.com/sp/s7.htm

If you want to make a comparitive unbiased (parametic) analysis of pips ,take a look at webpage below
https://ioctt.com/kg/parametrics.htm

PS :- Even if you are an all round player (& not a chopper) you are far better off using medium pips than short pips on your weakside because once you back away from table using short pips (either strong or wekside) you become sitting duck. But with medium pips you can chop or lob to at least stay in the point.
And even if you play close to the block& smash (& not a chopper) you are far better off using a blocking type long pips because of its superior versatility compared to short pips.

 

[James Z]

Would the butterfly innerforce ZLF be suited for a defence play with long pips?

Probably a little better than the outer layer (both offense & defence side) composite garbage defensive blades like Butterfly Matsushita, Butterfly Joo Sae Hyuk or any other defensive piece of crap blade made by Butterfly, especially their all wood defensive blades for classic defenders
But honestly there exists NO good factory made standard defensive blades useful especally for the 40+ plastic ball era.

There are a few decent Dr.Neubauer dual mode blades but they just are not large enough. especially for classic defensive oriented play like used by classic chopper Pete May (father of Derek May , a former modern chopper on USA national team) or lady GOAT Angelica Rozeanu
(click on name for their videos)

Pete May
Derek May
Angelica Rozeanu

You may also want to read the post #23 in the thread below below for more details
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...ion-play/page2

 

[LittleSeki]

okay thank you

Still i am unsure which long pips and what sponge size.

I think a slow blade like toni hold white spot or lion defence so i can generate a lot of spin with my inverted side so it is harder to attack fast or is my thinking wrong?

 

[James Z]

LittleSeki;386782
Still i am unsure which long pips and what sponge size.

Very easy answer
Which long pips > Only one rubber available that comes close fora chopper in 40+ plastic ball era > Magic 77
What sponge size > ONLY & ONLY OX No sponge.please (unless you are pro classic defender). Why ? Long stroy . But I have explained many times in forums including this forum.

LittleSeki;386782
I think a slow blade like toni hold white spot or lion defence so i can generate a lot of spin with my inverted side so it is harder to attack fast or is my thinking wrong?

You can "generate" the most back spin using spinny inverted (not anti inverted) against incoming no spin or incoming slight top spins (but not even against incoming very heavy top spins let alone incoming top spins from illegally boosted spinny inverted rubbers) . But against heavy incoming top spins especially those even with medium speed let alone high speed, it is extremely difficult for even a medium high level amateur to control your chops & this is why anti & long pips were invented in the first place > to be able to handle loops with heavy top spin or super heavy top spins (coming from opponents who illegally speed-glue or illegally boost rubbers against common laws)

Ideally the best style for pure chopping & hitting (not chopping mostly on the weakside & looping on strong side), is short pips on strong side & high aspect ratio super long pips on weak side.

As I pointed out earlier hitting type short pips can produce the least back spin,. So a combination racket with short pips & high aspect ratio super long pips will have the maximum (back) spin contrast when you chop from either side as a classic defender. The short pips chops are almost like fake spinless chops compared to the super spinny chops possible only with high aspect ratio super long pips

A combo racket with spinny inverted & high aspect ratio super long pips is also quite good but the back spin contrast (in spins created on forehand & backhand) is not the maximum as compared to a short pips / high aspect ratio super long pips racket.

For example let us say chop a few balls with high aspect ratio super long pips on backhand against heavy incoming illegally boosted loops. My back spin will be super heavy & would have the maximum looper torture index. Then I suddenly twiddle & chop with spinny inverted on my backside. There will be still some back spin but nowhere close to that from a high aspect ratio super long pips. So I almost always see the looper overshoot next loop if they did not notice my having twiddled (almost no one does even at high levels..............they just whine like a caged pig after the fact)
You can also do the reverse on your forehand. Chop a few balls with spinny inverted rubber on your forehand as usual. Then twiddle & chop using high aspect ratio super long pips. The looper will usually bury the ball at the bottom of the net on their side if it even gets that for. This is how you break the spirit of the pip hating booster supremacists & two-wing extremists.

For the same above process a short pips / high aspect ratio super long pips combo racket is much better because as I said earlier, the hitting type short pips can send back returns with far less back spin & so the contrast level difference for back spins is the most extreme.

I want to switch to short pips / long pips combo myself but is so hard for me because I have played with spinny inverted on my forehand (mostly as I twiddle a lot) for a long long long long time.

 

[LittleSeki]

Boosted rubber, doesnt matter in my class and i think with modern rubbers you dont need to boost. Pros are another topic but we are talking about amateurs.

Than why ox? Because you have more controll in chopping than with sponge?
And in germany i cant find the magic 77, so i need another rubber succsession.

I want a inverted rubber on my forehand so short pips are no option for me.

 

[Dominikk85]

@james z
Aren't yuta muramatsu and hou yingchao successful using a short pip to chop? They aren't classic defenders but they chop with SP and both are really good.

I don't know anything about chopping but some seem to make SP work.

 

[LittleSeki]

That is true but off topic so please dont discuss this here.
I only care for long pips

 

[Dominikk85]

That is true but off topic so please dont discuss this here.
I only care for long pips

You actually asked on page 1 on page if SP could be an option for you so you didn't specify that you didn't like SP.

I also think it isn't very polite of you to tell people that want to give advice to you that it isn't useful and you don't want to hear xy, you are not paying for advice here so you should be thankful for anything you get and if you don't like it you just ignore it.

Sure if there was a 15 page off topic discussion you could say something but that is the second time you attacked someone within two pages of thread.

 

[LittleSeki]

You actually asked on page 1 on page if SP could be an option for you so you didn't specify that you didn't like SP.

I also think it isn't very polite of you to tell people that want to give advice to you that it isn't useful and you don't want to hear xy, you are not paying for advice here so you should be thankful for anything you get and if you don't like it you just ignore it.

Sure if there was a 15 page off topic discussion you could say something but that is the second time you attacked someone within two pages of thread.

And in the same post i said i dont want short pips

 

[LittleSeki]

So i guess it is going to be a ddefplay with Donic Spike P1 in 1.1mm and a Donic Quattro because i like blue xD
What spongesize 1,5 or 1,8mm?

Or the Gewo Return Pro in 1,6mm in blue

 

[James Z]

Than why ox? Because you have more controll in chopping than with sponge?

Yes you are correct but only at the lower levels but not usually at levels above USATT ratings over 2200

If you are playing classic defense you are mostly chopping from both sides with occasional flat hits & an OX rubber gives the best control, versatility & harder for opponents to read.

There is some loss of control even with 0.5 mm sponge. Yes you can attack with a higher % with sponge than OX but that advantage is far outweighed by the fact that your flat kills are lot more deader than with a rubber with sponge.

Above opponents with ratings over 2200 you need sponge because the heavy loops coming from rackets using boosters (which are illegal under common law) will bounce off your racket because it will bounce off the wood. In fact I have noticed that even some of the chops by the GOAT Joo Sae Hyuk against boosted up loopers like Ma Long dig deep into the sponge & bounce off the wood and shoot long off the table.

But with opponents rated below 2200, you do not have to worry about it & OX rubber is the best.

But the biggest problem with using OX & sponged inverted rubber on other side of racket is that it takes some time to get used to the difference & it will feel very strange & difficult at first. I gave up like 5 times when I first tried this.

But once you get used to the OX rubber the control is so much better & your flat kills are so much more deadly.
If you use even a 1.3 mm sponge, it is much easier for your opponent to block it easily because it is nowhere close to how dead your kill is when you flat kill using an OX rubber. A blocker who blocks instinctively won't even have the ball reach the table as it will just drop. Your opponent will have to remember to open their racket wide open and push forward and most close to the table blocker do not have what it takes. In fact I even kind of feel sorry for my opponents when they try to use a normal block against flat kills coming out of my OX rubber
The effect is even lot more lethal & even funny in a sad way (for your opponent) if you can learn to flat kill after twiddling your long pips & smashing from your forehand.

Believe me i have gone thru these sponge and no sponge (OX) iterations like 100s of times in my past 30 years. I have beaten 2000+ players under 10 (in my 21 point days) in leagues using thick sponge P3 Curl but overall against the whole range of opponents I play my best with OX rubber & I have to struggle to beat even 1800 players using sponge because their lack of spin in their loops only causes control issues if I try to chop using sponged long pips.

 

[LittleSeki]

Thanks for the Informations.

I play in league matches.

How can someone recommend a rubber that is not on the ITTF list and dont even say something.

What is wronge with JamesZ?

 

[James Z]

he takes the view that rules against other forms of cheating - such as using unauthorised rubbers - should be ignored until they've sorted out enforcement of speed-gluing and boosting.

You keep saying that I am asking people to cheat though I have repeatedly stated & given example in the other thread
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...Bergstrom-of-Sweden&highlight=linda+bergstrom
that I am not asking players to cheat & I am ONLY asking players to get prior approval from USATT or other ITTF affiliates like DTTB, BEFORE using those rubbers in their tournaments. And all ITTF affilaites (like USATT, DTTB etc) have the full authority to waive any ITTF rules & regulations as they been consistently doing regarding speed-gluing & boosting since 1995 (even though they all know it is a serious health hazard) by conducting zero chemical inspections at lower levels of the sport..
All I am asking the USATT is they also allow the use of High Aspect Ratio Super Long pips (& I assure you, they are no health hazard)

 

[James Z]

You recommended Magic 77 to LittleSeki without even telling them that it was an unauthorised rubber. So clearly you aren’t making players aware that they’d need special permission to use this rubber in regulated events. If you are recommending rubbers that are not authorised, then every time you make the recommendation you should be making it clear that you are recommending an unauthorised rubber…otherwise innocent players are going to get led astray by your advice, not realising that what you are recommending isn’t approved.

ITTF is not the sole supreme authority on table tennis. Just bcause you & many others may incorrectly beliieve that it is true does not make it any more true but it is just a delusion.
I will stop recommending Magic 77 when everyone stop posting about or recommending potentially criminal chemicals such as speed-glues & boosters that your beloved ITTF has benned as health hazards

 

[James Z]

@james z
Aren't yuta muramatsu and hou yingchao successful using a short pip to chop? They aren't classic defenders but they chop with SP and both are really good.

I don't know anything about chopping but some seem to make SP work.

I have answered this question 100s of times in this & other forums.

1. If a rubber works for a pro it does not mean it will work for even a high level amateur, let alone a low level amateur. I am not saying tabletennis is the only sport that has groupies who will try to use exactly the same equipment that a pro uses but the problem is much more pronounced (bad) in tabletennis because of the delicate (microscopic) nature of tabletennis. For example in my prime playing days, I can pickup just about any $10 tennis racket and play tennis more or less the same level (& my peak in tabletennis has never been as high as it was in tennis in my prime, so I know) but it is far from being so in my case in tabletennis

2. Simply because a pro uses a certain rubber / blade does not mean they are using the absolute best for them. These players still dominate not mostly because of their rubber / blade but mostly because of their supreme talent & despite NOT using the absolute best rubber / blade. Many of them may even be limited by their contractual obligations with their sponsors & some other may even be getting wrong advice / guidance from their coaches.

3. Many of these groupies or others may be using these rubbers for all the wrong reasons. For example a player may worship Mima Ito so much that they may just use short pips on their backhand even though they may actually have a better looping backhand & a better flat hitting forehand. And of course there are lots of players who use rubbers in strictly social mode (totally non-functional) for fear of social rejection . These are mostly use of rubbers like short pips or anti on the weakside but there are also lots of players who use Butterfly Tenergy for example just & only because it is the gold standard among pros .

 

[James Z]

I’m not asking you to stop recommending Magic 77. I’m simply asking you to state that it isn’t authorised by the ITTF when you recommend it. I think that’s a fair request…and should be one that you have no problem obliging if you are genuinely not trying to trick people into using unauthorised rubbers.

But I keep telling you over & over that I do not have any ethical or moral or legal obligation to advise anybody based on whether it is ITTf authorized or not. You are assuming that based on the ridiculous assumption that ITTF is the sole supreme authority on tabletennis.
Again you are accusing of things I did not intend when you say I am trying to trick someone. I simply advised him based on what I feel in the best long pips in the 40+ era PERIOD & NOT based on useless pieces of crap long pips on ITTF LARC

I see you are still throwing speed-glue and boosters into the conversation, as if compliance with racket covering rules is somehow conditional on compliance to rules relating to speed -glue and boosters.

They are very much related. Becuase I would be breaking the law civil & criminal if I give advise players or ask advise about speed-glues & boosters because they are illegal under common law.

So to summarize, even if I was tricking him about long pips it is NOT illegal. But on the other hand if I was tricking anyone on speed-glues or boosters,yes that is very much illegal under common law.

I made it conditional just to illustrate my point because I doubt none of the posters in this forum will refrain from advising or asking advixe about speed-glues & boosters which are not only ITTF unauthorized but are also illegal under common law.