Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Tyce]

Anyone tried Battle II Soft? I'm worried it will be... Too soft 🤣

Got one for a bargain, but I've been reading that soft rubber gives less control

Might be fun on the BH? But if it's literally called "battle too soft" you can expect it to be too soft

 

[Larshos]

When you sand the wings of your outer-layer carbon/composite blades, do you sand through the carbon layer? I feel I can't get it comfortable enough with just rounding off the top ply..

 

[dingyibvs]

When you sand the wings of your outer-layer carbon/composite blades, do you sand through the carbon layer? I feel I can't get it comfortable enough with just rounding of the top ply..

Yeah I sand the carbon layer as well. With 80 grit sand paper everything sands super easily.

 

[dingyibvs]

I'm pretty satisfied with my FH progress in training now, the arm angle thing was the last major fix I needed. Now some fine tuning will be ahead. First, I want to increase the rotation and weight transfer a bit. That means having my knees facing a bit more to the right during backswing, and finishing with my knees pointed a bit more to the left at the end of the forward swing.

The second thing is that I noticed the pros don't really have the arm extending past the body at any point of time. This means IMO that the whip effect doesn't apply to the entire body (at least not fully), but really just to the arm. Because if it also applies to the shoulder/chest then the arm would be dragging behind the body during the start of the forward swing. This makes sense because I often find myself not having enough time to swing at the ball when trying to execute the full swing with full activation sequence.

Third thing is that my arm used to swing very back to forward. I noticed this on side view videos where my arm's finish position would be way ahead of my body compared to the pros. I initially tried to fix it by increasing the biceps/forearm flexion, but I think I also need to increase the chest/shoulder flexion so the entire arm is in sync and the racket sort of flies across my body.

Lastly I noticed in BH blocks that it's really just a BH shot without the swing. I used to block with everything a bit different, a more relaxed stance, a grip further down the racket, not much body or foot usage. Yesterday in practice I started doing everything like a regular BH shot, including even body and thumb usage, and whoa did it make a huge difference! I feel like I have so much more control on the ball, and it even look a lot better on video!

 

[Tyce]

So over the past year and a half, I've been using different gear to support learning different things. And right now, I'm making progress using better acceleration and taking the ball at the top of the bounce instead of waiting for the fall.
Both these things are incredible increases in speed and power, to the point where, and I never thought I would be saying this...

My Korbel might be too fast for me.

I played with my (modified) Waldner Senso Carbon and it was sweet, sweet and more sweet. I could comfortably put spin, speed and placement on, make short and long attacks, and everything with compact whippy strokes.

When I do the same thing with the Korbel, it just feels off. I can't whip it and retain feeling and control. I can play relaxed and place balls wherever I like, I can open up, but anything faster than that is too risky. I don't know what it is but I just can't connect to it.
I suspect it has to do with the stiffness, as I feel like I have a better connection with the much faster Pro 01. But for a 5ply, wood blade... I can't do all shots with it confidently so it's not a good blade for me.

 

[dingyibvs]

So over the past year and a half, I've been using different gear to support learning different things. And right now, I'm making progress using better acceleration and taking the ball at the top of the bounce instead of waiting for the fall.
Both these things are incredible increases in speed and power, to the point where, and I never thought I would be saying this...

My Korbel might be too fast for me.

I played with my (modified) Waldner Senso Carbon and it was sweet, sweet and more sweet. I could comfortably put spin, speed and placement on, make short and long attacks, and everything with compact whippy strokes.

When I do the same thing with the Korbel, it just feels off. I can't whip it and retain feeling and control. I can play relaxed and place balls wherever I like, I can open up, but anything faster than that is too risky. I don't know what it is but I just can't connect to it.
I suspect it has to do with the stiffness, as I feel like I have a better connection with the much faster Pro 01. But for a 5ply, wood blade... I can't do all shots with it confidently so it's not a good blade for me.

I think with stiffer blades it's a bit more linear and direct and easier to play with smaller motions closer to the table. I've been trying something similar, though purposefully using equipment less designed for what I'm training. I used the 968 to train my BH, and now I'm sticking with the FZD to train my FH. I'm thinking that when my rubbers wear out in a few weeks with the FZD I might switch back to the 968, either W or Q.

On a side note, I forgot to mention earlier that I've found that critical to the rotation and weight transfer is the stance. In recording my play from some different angles I noticed that my hip is too straight, which makes it way too easy to lose balance when rotating and weight transferring. I've tried to have more of a lean before, but that hasn't worked, and now I know why.

I shouldn't see it as a forward lean, but rather kicking my butt out. Just leaning forward ruins the balance, but kicking the butt out automatically gives you a forward lean for just the right amount of balance. My practice partner does a good job of it, but I think he does a bit more of a pure rotation. I'm gonna try to add a bit more weight transfer to it.

 

[Tyce]

@dingyibvs I read how you switched between blades to train specific elements before, and I think it's really interesting even with very different types.
For me, playing the Pro 01 (let's say Viscaria for easy reference) taught me a lot about effective racket speed and brush contact, but also about using the high elasticity for quick, low effort counters. However it's too quick for my level of movement to be able to train good body and footwork and recover in time for the next ball. My reflex speed isn't the issue, it's teaching my reflex to not be only arm.

The Pro 05 (or HL5X for easy reference) , and to a certain extent the Korbel, are better teachers for body movement. The feeling of hitting the ball from my core is very different than hitting with the arm. Especially with the forehand, the Pro 05 just won't engage all layers without having the core behind it.
The issue with the Korbel is, it seems to be losing control on medium to high power. The feeling is all over the place and I can't tell from the blades feedback if my ball was good. The Senso Carbon is significantly better in that regard even though it is slower.
(while I'm typing this, maybe I've grown used to the carbon type of feedback for high power shots)

But as much as I'd love to have a blade for every occasion, that doesn't really work in reality. I can't keep adding blades.

How do you decide what blade you use during tournaments or league matches, when results matter?
Would you rather use the blade you're training with at the moment, or one that you feel is the most versatile and effective for your whole game?

 

[Tyce]

Continuing, why fast equipment can hurt is not merely a matter of being able to control the shots you send. It is also about being able to recover and position in time for the next ball.

Let's say I can attack with 36 km/h with a slower bat. This is 10 m/s.
Let's make it easy and say my opponent is 4m away, and this 36 km/h is the average speed of the whole round trip.
This gives me a time of 0.4s until I have to make the next hit.

Now let's say a much faster bat goes brrrr and produces 54 km/h. This is 15 m/s.
Instead of 4/10ths I only have 4/15ths of a second to get the next hit, or 0.27s.

To make matters worse, humans have a base reaction speed, if you're very quick it might be 0.2s but we're talking super quick here. That leaves almost nothing with 0.07s for the fast bat (which shows my numbers are somewhat unrealistic) and a much more comfortable 0.2s for the slow bat.

So which one would be better if you need to work on positioning and recovery? Unless you like to take a pummeling off your own attacks, I'd say the slower one.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Continuing, why fast equipment can hurt is not merely a matter of being able to control the shots you send. It is also about being able to recover and position in time for the next ball.

Let's say I can attack with 36 km/h with a slower bat. This is 10 m/s.
Let's make it easy and say my opponent is 4m away, and this 36 km/h is the average speed of the whole round trip.
This gives me a time of 0.4s until I have to make the next hit.

Now let's say a much faster bat goes brrrr and produces 54 km/h. This is 15 m/s.
Instead of 4/10ths I only have 4/15ths of a second to get the next hit, or 0.27s.

To make matters worse, humans have a base reaction speed, if you're very quick it might be 0.2s but we're talking super quick here. That leaves almost nothing with 0.07s for the fast bat (which shows my numbers are somewhat unrealistic) and a much more comfortable 0.2s for the slow bat.

So which one would be better if you need to work on positioning and recovery? Unless you like to take a pummeling off your own attacks, I'd say the slower one.

You need to factor in the increased likelihood that your opponent misses outright into your calculations.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I think with stiffer blades it's a bit more linear and direct and easier to play with smaller motions closer to the table. I've been trying something similar, though purposefully using equipment less designed for what I'm training. I used the 968 to train my BH, and now I'm sticking with the FZD to train my FH. I'm thinking that when my rubbers wear out in a few weeks with the FZD I might switch back to the 968, either W or Q.

On a side note, I forgot to mention earlier that I've found that critical to the rotation and weight transfer is the stance. In recording my play from some different angles I noticed that my hip is too straight, which makes it way too easy to lose balance when rotating and weight transferring. I've tried to have more of a lean before, but that hasn't worked, and now I know why.

I shouldn't see it as a forward lean, but rather kicking my butt out. Just leaning forward ruins the balance, but kicking the butt out automatically gives you a forward lean for just the right amount of balance. My practice partner does a good job of it, but I think he does a bit more of a pure rotation. I'm gonna try to add a bit more weight transfer to it.

I really don't see any match play benefit to practicing with different equipment since match play is guided by making things work and adapting to each shot with the feeling and technique you've developed with your given equipment and the limitations/characteristics of that equipment. Even if you feel better in training with a 968 backhand or whatever, if you're in the middle of a match with FZD, that all goes out the window when things are happening live, so time is better spent just seeing which blade yields overall better results and practicing through the limitations rather than trying to eliminate the problem in practice.

 

[jk1980]

You need to factor in the increased likelihood that your opponent misses outright into your calculations.

which is pointless if we are talking about getting better.
You don't become a better player when your shots dont get returned and you remove the possibility to learn to actually have a rally with the opponent. Having the ball come back and reacting to that is much more helpful for the progress than trying to hit winners all the time and looking totally clueless once an old season grandpa who has no skills but blocking will surprise you with a well positioned block that will leave you stranded.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

which is pointless if we are talking about getting better.
You don't become a better player when your shots dont get returned and you remove the possibility to learn to actually have a rally with the opponent. Having the ball come back and reacting to that is much more helpful for the progress than trying to hit winners all the time and looking totally clueless once an old season grandpa who has no skills but blocking will surprise you with a well positioned block that will leave you stranded.

We can sit here and discuss hypotheticals, my point was only that if you are going to make calculations about the added benefit then also consider the added detriment.

On the other side of your example, what if your shot now doesn't get returned because instead of an "old season grandpa who only knows how to block" you play a young and actively counterlooping junior who, empowered by your marginally slower shot, feels the confidence to attempt and make a counterloop rather than passively blocking a faster ball, which would have given you another chance to attack?

 

[Tyce]

For learning benefits, especially movement and recovery, it's actually better to get the ball returned I guess
But of course, if you can outright win the point that's better in a match. Saves energy, too.

So as with all things, balance is important. If the bat is so slow that it allows your opponent to counter instead of block, the return will be faster, too.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

For learning benefits, especially movement and recovery, it's actually better to get the ball returned I guess
But of course, if you can outright win the point that's better in a match. Saves energy, too.

So as with all things, balance is important. If the bat is so slow that it allows your opponent to counter instead of block, the return will be faster, too.

I assumed you were referring to matchplay. In practice, I generally don't think the speed differences between equipment are so drastic that your partner can't quickly adjust and block the ball back given that you are hitting to one spot, but that could be situation dependent.

 

[Tyce]

Let's assume matchplay indeed. If I don't get balls returned to me, I can get away with having horrible recovery. But there's always a ceiling to that, and as soon as the opponents are able to return my attacks I will be toast. Unless I learn to recover better, and/or buy myself more time and opportunity to do so by using slower equipment.
Then, when I have grown used to the new level of opposition, I could move to faster equipment again and get even better in the recovery department.

 

[dingyibvs]

@dingyibvs I read how you switched between blades to train specific elements before, and I think it's really interesting even with very different types.
For me, playing the Pro 01 (let's say Viscaria for easy reference) taught me a lot about effective racket speed and brush contact, but also about using the high elasticity for quick, low effort counters. However it's too quick for my level of movement to be able to train good body and footwork and recover in time for the next ball. My reflex speed isn't the issue, it's teaching my reflex to not be only arm.

The Pro 05 (or HL5X for easy reference) , and to a certain extent the Korbel, are better teachers for body movement. The feeling of hitting the ball from my core is very different than hitting with the arm. Especially with the forehand, the Pro 05 just won't engage all layers without having the core behind it.
The issue with the Korbel is, it seems to be losing control on medium to high power. The feeling is all over the place and I can't tell from the blades feedback if my ball was good. The Senso Carbon is significantly better in that regard even though it is slower.
(while I'm typing this, maybe I've grown used to the carbon type of feedback for high power shots)

But as much as I'd love to have a blade for every occasion, that doesn't really work in reality. I can't keep adding blades.

How do you decide what blade you use during tournaments or league matches, when results matter?
Would you rather use the blade you're training with at the moment, or one that you feel is the most versatile and effective for your whole game?

I definitely use the blade I'm training with. I'm not someone who can just switch around and instantly benefit from whatever advantages the new equipment has. Just the weight, thickness, and balance differences are enough to make me miss a lot of balls.

 

[jk1980]

We can sit here and discuss hypotheticals, my point was only that if you are going to make calculations about the added benefit then also consider the added detriment.

On the other side of your example, what if your shot now doesn't get returned because instead of an "old season grandpa who only knows how to block" you play a young and actively counterlooping junior who, empowered by your marginally slower shot, feels the confidence to attempt and make a counterloop rather than passively blocking a faster ball, which would have given you another chance to attack?

Ok, we are having different expectations here. I expect the topic to resolve around somebody actually wanting to get better and not stay in the current state and just win as much as possible.
Great if somebody counter loops the ball, then you are able to learn how to cope with that and in time you will improve this part of the game instead of trying to do the bare minimum to win points.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Ok, we are having different expectations here. I expect the topic to resolve around somebody actually wanting to get better and not stay in the current state and just win as much as possible.
Great if somebody counter loops the ball, then you are able to learn how to cope with that and in time you will improve this part of the game instead of trying to do the bare minimum to win points.

So someone can learn to cope with a counterloop but they can't learn to cope with a block that comes back slightly faster than normal?

Who said anything about not actually wanting to get better?

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Let's assume matchplay indeed. If I don't get balls returned to me, I can get away with having horrible recovery. But there's always a ceiling to that, and as soon as the opponents are able to return my attacks I will be toast. Unless I learn to recover better, and/or buy myself more time and opportunity to do so by using slower equipment.
Then, when I have grown used to the new level of opposition, I could move to faster equipment again and get even better in the recovery department.

Maybe but I think you are assuming that when using slower equipment that necessarily means your opponents returns will always come back slower, and I don't think that is the case unless your opponent cooperates and plays exactly on the terms that you want them to.

 

[Tyce]

Maybe but I think you are assuming that when using slower equipment that necessarily means your opponents returns will always come back slower, and I don't think that is the case unless your opponent cooperates and plays exactly on the terms that you want them to.

The return might not be that different in speed, but my ball will be... I guess I'm overthinking this already it feels like it's not as convincing as I initially thought it was.