Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

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Something to think about regarding copying pro Chinese/European technique:

Take a second to watch a pro video or two. Take a close look at the width of their stance, and how low and wide they stay throughout the point.

A stance that wide and that low allows for a lot of body rotation and fast swings while remaining balanced.

Now take the average 1500 level player who is over 30 years old and not in the greatest of shape. They are going to struggle to get as wide and low as a pro, and will especially struggle to maintain that form in a rally or match.

Should these players be copying pro forehand technique, or would they be better off using some other technique that might not look exactly like a pros but which makes allowances for their physical abilities?

TLDR;

If you can't get your stance as wide and low as a pro player, and maintain it, what is actually the optimal technique for something like a forehand loop?
I don't think there is a need to change that much, to be honest, though modest accommodations can be made for each player. The main thing is to find a stance that is comfortable and that one can move laterally in as well as strokes that work in a more vertical position. I usually find that over time, I can go down and come backup. I try to change my swing planes to adapt to the ball. Over time, the body becomes more efficient at getting lower, even if not as consistently low as a pro.

I had a coach who played mostly standing straight and because of bad knees and arthritis, I got better mostly standing straight with slight knee bend and occasionally getting low so I have never understood the cult of getting low in amateur play. For kids, it makes sense. But whenever I tell adults to start with getting good strokes and work from there, some players make it sound like I have committed a mortal sin.
 
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Hey guys, I thought I would ask here instead of a new thread, as most of you know me a little bit through my videos. So I went to a TT store in HK and they sell a fang Bo carbon blade. There's one weighing about 87 g. I would like to know if it will be ok for me to buy it and change to that.

My reason for the change is I want to try a. ALC blade in the hope it may be better for my looping. Or do you guys think it's not worth it considering I am using carbonado 145? The price is 400hkd. I plan on using H3 Neo on forehand and tenergy05 on backhand, same as my carbonado.

Thank you very much :)
 
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Hey guys, I thought I would ask here instead of a new thread, as most of you know me a little bit through my videos. So I went to a TT store in HK and they sell a fang Bo carbon blade. There's one weighing about 87 g. I would like to know if it will be ok for me to buy it and change to that.

My reason for the change is I want to try a. ALC blade in the hope it may be better for my looping. Or do you guys think it's not worth it considering I am using carbonado 145? The price is 400hkd. I plan on using H3 Neo on forehand and tenergy05 on backhand, same as my carbonado.

Thank you very much :)

Use anything you want - it might be more fun to play with but will never replace the hours in the practice halls.
 
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So I went to a club in Indiana. It so happens that the club and its residence in that building, full time, part time, whatever, has been going on over 90 years as there is history of table tennis being played in that building during the great depression. It's named after a USATT hall of famer (Bernard Hock).

So I warmed up with one of the regulars who I had played at the 2015 Teams and beaten. I then got winner at a table where my opponent had a very interesting look. He had inverted on one-side and long pips (RITC 537 or something like that) on the other. After a few points, I began to wonder whether I was living in an alternate reality or not as I felt I was playing someone who just could see what I could do the ball so clearly that he could kill any ball I left sitting over the table. I think I lost the first game at 9, lost the second game at 5 or something like that, and then decided that well, nothing left but to just throw the kitchen sink at him. He might have let up too, but I managed to come back from behind to win that one. Very relaxed style, extremely creative. Someone told me that the late Hall of Famer for whom the club is named called him the most talented player he had ever seen, but he just never got into the sport the way he could have.

I then played the man I played at the Teams in 2015 and managed to beat him 3-1. Then I Got to play his son, who was the one team member I didn't play at the teams and from being up 2-0, I lost 3-2. I played a couple of other matches against club regulars who weren't quite as good as these guys and won them fairly easily.

I brought out my camera at this point. The man wanted a rematch (he might have noticed something after I lost to his son) and he won 3-1, making more loops than he did the first match. My right knee was clicking and I didn't want to push it early but it felt better as the match went on. I then played the chopper and beat him 3-0 and another club regular and won 3-1. We then did a King of the Hill ( 1 set to 11, winner stays) with 3 of us. I learned I Still have work to do to get used to using faster blades.

I will share my only filmed loss and one of my 2 losses on the trip. This ends the TT session of my trip - I will hang out with my brother this evening and start my drive tomorrow morning. Please don't worry so much about strategy or tactics - a lot of this match was really about trying to take his best shot (If I really want to beat lefties, you see a lot of backhand serves, much more than you saw in this match). The other thing I ant people to note is how much my opponent rotates and how he doesn't bck off from the table once he realizes that I am mostly going to block the first shot. It's a common error at the lower levels not to be ready to kill the 5th ball when the opponent is not countering or blocking aggressively.

 
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Use anything you want - it might be more fun to play with but will never replace the hours in the practice halls.

Thanks NL. I have decided not to get it now. Going to wait for something I truly like.
 
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Thanks NL. I have decided not to get it now. Going to wait for something I truly like.

Your best bet is to wait until you can try something out before you buy it, i.e someone else in your club has the blade/rubbers so you can practice with them. That is the only way you can get a true understanding of whether you like the new equipment before spending any hard earned dollar dollar, or pound pound in the UK :)
 
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booger. remeber there is more than one way to rip the skin off of a cat and wear it on your face. even for the chinese national team. you do you, see if you can get to a high level your way. Next time you visit the states with your new profound playing abilities, lets see how you do against us >=]

TRANSLATION:

[begin Shuki voice]

I want 9 points Boogar!

[/voice]
 
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The other thing you need to learn to do is to build out that in-between slow heavy topspin game. That's what people who play like you are lacking - you have practiced hitting the ball at 100mph or just rolling the ball that you don't know how to put must of your stroke into topspin. It's all about whip, playing around the shape of the ball and finding the right contact point.
Thanks NL.

But when I play a real match, 99 percent of my loops are soft, slow, sissy loops with a very vertical swing path. They are "rainbow-style loops" without going agressively forwards and through the ball. I almost never hit a loop in a match like the ones you saw in my last multiball video, even when my opponent gives me a high, weak ball where the situation calls for it. So when you see me launching 100mph power loops in training, it's just my concentrated effort to make myself go agressively forward and through the ball. The problem is when I play in a real match, I go back to the purely vertical swing path that I've done for years.

Sometimes it's difficult for me know how much of my problem is psychological and being afraid to miss versus still not having overcome my tendency to lift the ball and take every shot on the descent. It's probably a combination of both.
 
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Thanks NL.

But when I play a real match, 99 percent of my loops are soft, slow, sissy loops with a very vertical swing path. They are "rainbow-style loops" without going agressively forwards and through the ball. I almost never hit a loop in a match like the ones you saw in my last multiball video, even when my opponent gives me a high, weak ball where the situation calls for it. So when you see me launching 100mph power loops in training, it's just my concentrated effort to make myself go agressively forward and through the ball. The problem is when I play in a real match, I go back to the purely vertical swing path that I've done for years.

Sometimes it's difficult for me know how much of my problem is psychological and being afraid to miss versus still not having overcome my tendency to lift the ball and take every shot on the descent. It's probably a combination of both.
Have you ever tried to swing at a ball in a way that you have never swung at it before under pressure?

Have you ever tried to greet your girlfriend in a way that you have never greeted her before?

We are creatures of habits. Changing habits is hard. You go up 2-0 in a game playing a certain way and you don't have a coach to tell you what changed and the opponent changes something and comes back to beat you.

You CAN loop the ball slowly and still come forward and over the ball - I do that for a living.

In serious matches, the most important thing is to set up the point to get the patterns you are looking for or that you have drilled in practice. In technical practice, the most important thing is to get your technique as flexible and adaptable as possible.

The problem in part is that most of your training is not simulating match play and you aren't getting the ball variety that makes you understand how to loop - everything is too cookie cutter. Have Stouffer dink a ball low off the side off the table to your forehand and let you loop it. People who can loop balls that barely come off the edge of the table or that come off the side know how to loop, you have to shape the ball, so to speak, not play some upward stroke, so your stroke has to be almost always somewhat tangential to how the ball comes to you. I was trying to point out to a TTEdge member the difference between my loops and his - he seems to just play upwards with little wrist, and has to take the ball late. I try to play along the contour of the ball over it and forward in some way, so it doesn't matter where I take the ball, I am mentally trying to do the same thing, so I can take it off the bounce over table if it is high or has the right spin, or take it when it is falling below the table. Those clean top of the bounce loops look good, but they don't adapt well when you are a learning adult and have to do a cognitive read to get into position. They work well when you have that cognitive read down, but you aren't going to feel confident playing them until you have shots that let you do something good when you are late to the ball.

Most of your training I see doesn't replicate the kind of difficult movements and timings that occur when you are late to the ball. Of course, it might be in part a space issue, but you have pointed out that you don't play off the bounce in matches, so that can't be it. You have to learn to loop and take the ball early, loop and take the ball late, loop and take the ball when it is dropping, loop when the ball is just coming off the table etc. When you do all that, with mostly the same stroke/mindset as I do, then you know how to spin, the rest is learning the movements to get into position and connect the shots while staying in balance.

The first step is to commit to something like finishing all your loops with your upper arm in front of your body. 90 degrees or less in the elbow, racket angle more closed for topspin, more open for backspin. But play every shot that way in practice with slow spin and have Stouffer feed you wide variety of shots, silly ones, crazy ones, impossible ones, high balls etc. and you have to loop all of the (90 -45 degree angle on the forehand at the forehead or in front of the body at the end of the stroke, no matter how low or high the ball is). When you can do that, then you are on your way.

This was the rally that made me start realizing that I really could loop any ball. OF all the rallies I have played, it is still my favorite one:

youtu.be/vE677g9AcN8?t=381

Stop thinking about what you have to do in terms of strokes. Think of strokes as just ways of making the ball do certain things and try to make it do those things by changing how and where you hit the ball. It's liberating, as opposed to being stuck swinging at the ball in a rigid pattern all the time and leaves you unable to adapt when the ball comes at you differently.
 
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Have you ever tried to swing at a ball in a way that you have never swung at it before under pressure?

Have you ever tried to greet your girlfriend in a way that you have never greeted her before?

We are creatures of habits. Changing habits is hard. You go up 2-0 in a game playing a certain way and you don't have a coach to tell you what changed and the opponent changes something and comes back to beat you.

You CAN loop the ball slowly and still come forward and over the ball - I do that for a living.

In serious matches, the most important thing is to set up the point to get the patterns you are looking for or that you have drilled in practice. In technical practice, the most important thing is to get your technique as flexible and adaptable as possible.

The problem in part is that most of your training is not simulating match play and you aren't getting the ball variety that makes you understand how to loop - everything is too cookie cutter. Have Stouffer dink a ball low off the side off the table to your forehand and let you loop it. People who can loop balls that barely come off the edge of the table or that come off the side know how to loop, you have to shape the ball, so to speak, not play some upward stroke, so your stroke has to be almost always somewhat tangential to how the ball comes to you. I was trying to point out to a TTEdge member the difference between my loops and his - he seems to just play upwards with little wrist, and has to take the ball late. I try to play along the contour of the ball over it and forward in some way, so it doesn't matter where I take the ball, I am mentally trying to do the same thing, so I can take it off the bounce over table if it is high or has the right spin, or take it when it is falling below the table. Those clean top of the bounce loops look good, but they don't adapt well when you are a learning adult and have to do a cognitive read to get into position. They work well when you have that cognitive read down, but you aren't going to feel confident playing them until you have shots that let you do something good when you are late to the ball.

Most of your training I see doesn't replicate the kind of difficult movements and timings that occur when you are late to the ball. Of course, it might be in part a space issue, but you have pointed out that you don't play off the bounce in matches, so that can't be it. You have to learn to loop and take the ball early, loop and take the ball late, loop and take the ball when it is dropping, loop when the ball is just coming off the table etc. When you do all that, with mostly the same stroke/mindset as I do, then you know how to spin, the rest is learning the movements to get into position and connect the shots while staying in balance.

The first step is to commit to something like finishing all your loops with your upper arm in front of your body. 90 degrees or less in the elbow, racket angle more closed for topspin, more open for backspin. But play every shot that way in practice with slow spin and have Stouffer feed you wide variety of shots, silly ones, crazy ones, impossible ones, high balls etc. and you have to loop all of the (90 -45 degree angle on the forehand at the forehead or in front of the body at the end of the stroke, no matter how low or high the ball is). When you can do that, then you are on your way.

This was the rally that made me start realizing that I really could loop any ball. OF all the rallies I have played, it is still my favorite one:

youtu.be/vE677g9AcN8?t=381

Stop thinking about what you have to do in terms of strokes. Think of strokes as just ways of making the ball do certain things and try to make it do those things by changing how and where you hit the ball. It's liberating, as opposed to being stuck swinging at the ball in a rigid pattern all the time and leaves you unable to adapt when the ball comes at you differently.
Appreciate your help NL. You are correct that my training is and always has been very cookie cutter. I've always operated under the assumption that it is easier to correct technical flaws (like dropping the shoulder too much when FH looping against backspin) in a cookie cutter environment. But I need to change that way of thinking.

I'll try to respond more in depth after work. For now, here is the type of FH that you will often see me play in a match setting:

 
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No wonder I have been waiting in vain for Boogar to play real topspins. He is listening to videos that make him feel like he understands Chinese secrets. Sorry to tell you the bad news, Boogar, but the secrets are not going to hit the ball, you are, and the best stroke in the world is the one that wins the points for you, not the one that is described in the Chinese secrets.

But what if the one described in the Chinese secrets is the one that wins the point for you?
 
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But what if the one described in the Chinese secrets is the one that wins the point for you?

xs7ldu.jpg
 
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Appreciate your help NL. You are correct that my training is and always has been very cookie cutter. I've always operated under the assumption that it is easier to correct technical flaws (like dropping the shoulder too much when FH looping against backspin) in a cookie cutter environment. But I need to change that way of thinking.

I'll try to respond more in depth after work. For now, here is the type of FH that you will often see me play in a match setting:


You just have to learn to stop dropping the paddle after you play the first/opening loop. Most pros stay low and lean forward so even their adjustments to their swings to go back to front look like they are swinging from down to up. Your paddle will always go up if you finish at your forehead. You have to compensate by consciously taking the racket backwards or raising it up at the end of the backswing before coming forward so that you can play at the side top and over the ball. Hard to do though if you are to used to swinging at the ball in only one way or you keep thinking that the only result of swinging in a way that you have not swung at the ball before is that something bad will happen.

That said, I still struggle with this at my level of topspin. It's why I tend to play better when the ball slows down.
 
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Thanks NL.

But when I play a real match, 99 percent of my loops are soft, slow, sissy loops with a very vertical swing path. They are "rainbow-style loops" without going agressively forwards and through the ball. I almost never hit a loop in a match like the ones you saw in my last multiball video, even when my opponent gives me a high, weak ball where the situation calls for it. So when you see me launching 100mph power loops in training, it's just my concentrated effort to make myself go agressively forward and through the ball. The problem is when I play in a real match, I go back to the purely vertical swing path that I've done for years.

NextLevel's post is good. But I am going to highlight important points:

The problem in part is that most of your training is not simulating match play and you aren't getting the ball variety that makes you understand how to loop - everything is too cookie cutter.

This is the central thing. You have to train game simulation where you go for the shots you should without worrying if you make it or mess up. Then you develop the habit for the shots you should take and the choices you have open to you. Game simulation training. Random. Train Random. Train ugly.

There is this old Jamaican/Chinese guy named Erol Young. I met him in the 3 months I played in 1991. Back then Tahl Leibovitz and Dave Fernandez were kids and he trained them. He definitely played a decent part in those guys getting over 2400. Dave got to 2600+ at his highest. When he saw people doing standard block training, he had a Jamaican term for it: "boi be diki." I don't know what it really means. But I know, from his standpoint it was a waste of time and a sign that people didn't know how to train.

I am not sure I agree with him. But I will stay there is limited value to block drills if you don't also drill random and make sure you are including game skill elements.

Most of your training I see doesn't replicate the kind of difficult movements and timings that occur when you are late to the ball....You have to learn to loop and take the ball early, loop and take the ball late, loop and take the ball when it is dropping, loop when the ball is just coming off the table etc. When you do all that, with mostly the same stroke/mindset as I do, then you know how to spin, the rest is learning the movements to get into position and connect the shots while staying in balance.

This is good info. One thing I have started realizing is I am getting pretty good at looping over the table on handbreaker balls where the 2nd bounce will be right at about the white line. That happened from training with someone who really gives me varied serve returns and trying to loop those balls that weren't going to reach the end of the table. It is also why one of my training partners gives me all kinds of crazy junk balls. Those weird balls that were a miss-hit from the opponent are not easy. You have to adjust to them. When Edmund Suen used to train me, he would purposely clip the net and trained me to adjust to those net balls. When you practice it, you get better at it.

Stop thinking about what you have to do in terms of strokes. Think of strokes as just ways of making the ball do certain things and try to make it do those things by changing how and where you hit the ball. It's liberating, as opposed to being stuck swinging at the ball in a rigid pattern all the time and leaves you unable to adapt when the ball comes at you differently.

This last piece is just great information. Read it again and again. If you are thinking, "what is he talking about," at some point in training game skills and amplifying the random element, you will go, "oh, that was what NextLevel meant."




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Appreciate your help NL. You are correct that my training is and always has been very cookie cutter. I've always operated under the assumption that it is easier to correct technical flaws (like dropping the shoulder too much when FH looping against backspin) in a cookie cutter environment. But I need to change that way of thinking.

I'll try to respond more in depth after work. For now, here is the type of FH that you will often see me play in a match setting:


In the shot in question you reset WAYYY late. It is sort of like you don't expect the ball to come back and then, as it bounces on your side, you start to set for where the ball is going.

That is another thing random training will do for you. You will start being set quicker after a shot because in random training with a good training partner the ball will keep coming back. There will be enough times where you make a great shot and are there admiring it when all of a sudden you go: "Doh...it's coming back and I am not ready!" And that really can help you reset and adjust to the return faster.


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So, I think I am going to talk about some training theory.

It is valuable to do block training, particularly to improve form and get good form into muscle memory for a specific stroke.

However, that form vs a predictable ball placed to you with the same spin and speed over and over again IS NOT a scenario you will face during match play. Which is also why, as you are developing stroke mechanics with block drills, you also want to add the random element at some point. At a level like SchemeSC's, it should have been introduced into training exercises years ago.

But it is never to late to start including random training. In block training you can focus on form because you don't really need to adjust the incoming ball. You just have to reset for the same ball coming back.

While working on the form you still want alternate and do drills that force you to adjust to different balls.

Here is an example of one drill:

1) player 1 serves short
2) player 2 pushes short to wide FH
3) player one flips

You do that over and over. You do the same drill with the BH flipping. Then after you have reps, you make the push, totally random, short, long, left, right. Once that is happening, making the correct shot when you get the ball that you should flip with the FH is much harder. But with enough practice you start adjusting better to each third ball wherever it is placed.

That is one example of progressing from a simpler drill to work on a shot like a flip and then then progressing to a more random scenario where you have to be ready for many things to come up including the opportunity to flip.


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Appreciate your help NL. You are correct that my training is and always has been very cookie cutter. I've always operated under the assumption that it is easier to correct technical flaws (like dropping the shoulder too much when FH looping against backspin) in a cookie cutter environment. But I need to change that way of thinking.

I'll try to respond more in depth after work. For now, here is the type of FH that you will often see me play in a match setting:


Watch the video that Carl referred you to. Watch it carefully. It explains the seduction if cookie cutter training. But it also explains why the skills don't translate to matches quickly. One of the things I have to do as a coach is get people comfortable with training ugly. They get frustrated and I do too. But it is the only way to get the mind up to game speed. I wish I had known this earlier. I spent many years complaining about people who didn't hit the ball straight instead of figuring out how to hit the ball straight even in response to an ugly ball. In the end though, I used a lot of that combined with what I learned from Brett to try to get myself and my students comfortable with missing as the fastest way to get better, as long as they had a good stroke. Even in matches, people ask how I did this or that shot and I tell them that they didn't see all the mistakes that taught me how to do that.
 
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Here is one of my favorite looping videos. You can see how late I am taking the ball and how relaxed I am. I also have videos where I take the ball earlier (vs Brockington, for example). But I tell adults all the time that if they can't loop like this, they will be under pressure all the time in matches. If I had good footwork, I would do this more often. Just loop and make the ball spin, forget about Chinese loop, Euro loop, off the bounce loop etc. The key thing here is that because I am always trying to shape and play over the ball from the side, this loop works from all distances and I don't have to adjust it much when playing off the bounce other than to change the stroke plane.

youtu.be/dLOYNzxg8S0?t=240
 
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