EmRatThich says learn w/Max thickness, fast rubber?

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Three month of lessons with a professional coach ( say: once a week ) >>> 1,000 hrs of watching Youtube tutorial videos.

To me, other than NL view of good coach and bad coach, there is also a very important part called "confusion".
Too many equipment will lead to confusion
to many coaches will lead to confusion
listen to many youtube tutorial is that same as many coaches, and that will lead to confusion.

I've seen parents, taking the kids everywhere, and I do mean everywhere, having a session here and a session there. End of the day, every coach was labeled useless by the parent.
I wanted to actually say, the parent is confusing the kid to the max and coaches will actually be happy that you are moving on, as coaches all want to groom the next star player, and your kid is actually just wasting time and money.

There was even a father that would learn everything there is on the internet (many not by the book) and teach her 15 year old daughter how to play. I asked him, how long have you been playing? he said, he started after his daughter started to play..... and he doesn't play much (he can't block balls for the higher level daughter), buts knows all her fault and can fix them. okay.... lol

Now, this part is a 1st timer for me!!!
That daughters bat is wrapped to the tee, I can't see a single piece of wood on the blade.
The handle is wrapped for "better grip", the edge is covered with "form edge tape", so it doesn't damage the blade/rubbers. The front and back side of the blade surface under the rubber/on top of the handle is also protected with some film.
Did I say, I can't see a single piece of wood on the blade???

I asked the girl, who did that, she said her father.
I asked why? She said, she doesn't know.
I would trash all those rubbish on that blade

I have no idea where the father read all those "things" from. I actually feel the father should just be a father and leaving table tennis to the experts.

When you out there in real life, with real human beings, there is actually a lot of stories to tell.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I guess, an addition to what I said above: why do people think thicker sponge is faster? If you are spinning the ball, you can swing harder and apply more force to the ball while still maintaining the control to arc the ball onto the table. With something that does not allow you to generate as much spin, you may need to cut down your stroke to keep the shot safe.

I would say a big majority of times, when coaches are coaching very new beginners, the setup is away too fast.
This is more applicable for adult beginners actually, as over time, they still struggle to cope.
I've seen some that stands way back as his solution to get the ball in. I'm sure you have too.

I don't waste time, I just say, go park your bat, buy a new one, use that fast bat a year later.

To me, it is very important to have the correct technique follow by the correct contact on the ball, which is to spin the ball.
Speed should not even be in the picture until they can go 20 or 30 shots in a row without dropping the ball.
One the basics are there, then footwork and then the full lot of foundation comes.
In the early part of this, one doesn't require fancy equipment

Once all that is done, then I will teach them how to hit hard and how to generate more power and start teaching more advance strokes like BH flick.
An Olympian coach once jokes with me, saying he once saw a kid that is doing BH flicks, but he can't do any other BH shots.
I asked, how is that possible. Well, the kids coach started teaching the kid BH flicks before any other BH shot. While the olympian would only teach that maybe 3 or 5 years after the kid has matured in table tennis.

 

[JJ Ng]

I would say a big majority of times, when coaches are coaching very new beginners, the setup is away too fast.
This is more applicable for adult beginners actually, as over time, they still struggle to cope.
I've seen some that stands way back as his solution to get the ball in. I'm sure you have too.

I don't waste time, I just say, go park your bat, buy a new one, use that fast bat a year later.

To me, it is very important to have the correct technique follow by the correct contact on the ball, which is to spin the ball.
Speed should not even be in the picture until they can go 20 or 30 shots in a row without dropping the ball.
One the basics are there, then footwork and then the full lot of foundation comes.
In the early part of this, one doesn't require fancy equipment

Once all that is done, then I will teach them how to hit hard and how to generate more power and start teaching more advance strokes like BH flick.
An Olympian coach once jokes with me, saying he once saw a kid that is doing BH flicks, but he can't do any other BH shots.
I asked, how is that possible. Well, the kids coach started teaching the kid BH flicks before any other BH shot. While the olympian would only teach that maybe 3 or 5 years after the kid has matured in table tennis.

I agree that many adults are set up with too fast of a blade and a pair of rubber. Even kids too.

I am a big proponent of a 5-ply wood blade at the OFF - speed. You just pair it with the right rubber along the way and that blade should last the kid or the adult 2-3 years minimum. After that, if they want to try ZJK super ZLC with Dignic or Tenergy on both sides, be my guest. I do feel that ALL or ALL + is too slow from the get go and the need to change the angle of the bat later on as you move up to better equipment would become too much of an adjustment.

We can argue that no way Ma Long got started on Timo Boll ALC with Tenergy on both sides when he started as a kid. We can also argue that none of the Chinese players started that when they were little simply due to the sheer cost of it. But there might be something to be said about slower blades with Chinese rubber on both side to help with the development of a full stroke.

I did call an European professional table tennis player (I don't remember his name) said that the hardest opponent for him to play with is Ma Long, but not because Ma Long is fast all the time. Instead Ma Long is always looking at you from the corners of his eyes and change the pace on the ball depending on what you are doing. That depends on you developing touch and feel from the earlier stage of your training.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

... I did call an European professional table tennis player (I don't remember his name) said that the hardest opponent for him to play with is Ma Long, but not because Ma Long is fast all the time. Instead Ma Long is always looking at you from the corners of his eyes and change the pace on the ball depending on what you are doing. That depends on you developing touch and feel from the earlier stage of your training.

That European player is none other than Dima. He made the above comment in one of TTD Dan's product review video. Dima continues, " It is because of that, I view Ma Long as the most difficult to play opponent. "

 

[JJ Ng]

That European player is none other than Dima. He made the above comment in one of TTD Dan's product review video. Dima continues, " It is because of that, I view Ma Long as the most difficult to play opponent. "

Right. Well, I happen to comment about that on Dan's forum! Good job Dan for giving us invaluable info.

 

[disaster3]

in terms of thickness it depends on the level you are. It is not so direct answer. If you have proper technique you can go with max, even maxed rubbers differ each other in terms of control, speed, spin. You can train and increase your skills with maxed rubbers, too.
On my example, I hate everything below 2.0 as I have a feeling that I hit naked blade, I hate this sound. Recently I tried to get used to 1st Chinese rubber STN, max. It is hard and on FZD ALC blade. The sound is similar like I would hit naked blade, otherwise is on BH side with G-1 max.
Taking into account 40+ plastic balls where everything slowed down, all wood blade, with below 2.0 mm rubbers might be not enough and players might be frustrated that ball does not fly but on the other hand it is easy to overdo in opposite side. There should be some starting point, and then correction in -/+ should be implemented.
Of course, I see "Sunday" players 50+ not so fast on foot, overweighed, in the club I'm playing, where they asked for Super ZLC + Dignics, and after few session they are looking somebody to buy it from them
Last time my trainer asked me if I don't want to buy just cut, after 2 session, new Dignics 09C for the half price. Just smiled because I knew who it was.
It is like with supercharged car. If you have passed already your driving license, and it will be your 1st car, it should not be ferrari or Lambo Humility and a little modesty are needed.

 

[JJ Ng]

in terms of thickness it depends on the level you are. It is not so direct answer. If you have proper technique you can go with max, even maxed rubbers differ each other in terms of control, speed, spin. You can train and increase your skills with maxed rubbers, too.
On my example, I hate everything below 2.0 as I have a feeling that I hit naked blade, I hate this sound. Recently I tried to get used to 1st Chinese rubber STN, max. It is hard and on FZD ALC blade. The sound is similar like I would hit naked blade, otherwise is on BH side with G-1 max.
Taking into account 40+ plastic balls where everything slowed down, all wood blade, with below 2.0 mm rubbers might be not enough and players might be frustrated that ball does not fly but on the other hand it is easy to overdo in opposite side. There should be some starting point, and then correction in -/+ should be implemented.
Of course, I see "Sunday" players 50+ not so fast on foot, overweighed, in the club I'm playing, where they asked for Super ZLC + Dignics, and after few session they are looking somebody to buy it from them
Last time my trainer asked me if I don't want to buy just cut, after 2 session, new Dignics 09C for the half price. Just smiled because I knew who it was.
It is like with supercharged car. If you have passed already your driving license, and it will be your 1st car, it should not be ferrari or Lambo Humility and a little modesty are needed.

I would love to go around and buy used, just-cut Dignics 09c for half price. Sign me up! Ok, I will go back to STN and H3 neo with G-1 on the backhand....

 

[disaster3]

I would love to go around and buy used, just-cut Dignics 09c for half price. Sign me up! Ok, I will go back to STN and H3 neo with G-1 on the backhand....

If I would got this info earlier (before I cut STN and G-1) I would probably buy it, but do not have any spare blade to glue it on, and try it.
edit: just texted my coach if he still owns it.... he does, (cut and after one session), told him to take it on my today's training session, I will think whether to take it or not

 

[BobFL]

I disagree with ERT a lot and in general I think he is all show and no go.
His content is a clickbait paradigm.

Unlike him, you Ti Long is much better, gives much better advice, gives realistic advice. Everything he says has meaning and substance.

 

[Haito]

I disagree with ERT a lot and in general I think he is all show and no go.
His content is a clickbait paradigm.

Unlike him, you Ti Long is much better, gives much better advice, gives realistic advice. Everything he says has meaning and substance.

The thing I like about Ti Long, he always makes demonstrations.

 

[BobFL]

The thing I like about Ti Long, he always makes demonstrations.

Absolutely, he knows his stuff. There is only 1 thing I would like to see (and I told him that) - narrative in English. The best way to follow instructions is to watch and listen at the same time. Reading subtitles makes things much more difficult.

 

[Topspinslinger]

I always recommend a thicker medium hardness rubber that has a few gears. I find the kids who got a basic Tibhar learn spin to be flat hitting and be very passive. Overall not learning much spin. But one kid got Andro Good! and he is "talented". He accually learns how to play and spin. I think maybe Yinhe mercury 2 medium would even be better. Slow, spinny, but also not horrible for flat hits.
The best thing for new players is good coaching and a good environment!
ERT isn't wrong but he is thinking of kids that have coaches and who train every day. But most people train 2/3 hours a week

 

[brokenball]

All you guys are dumping on ERT for doing the same thing I see on this forum all the time, spreading fairy tales and myths.

 

[IB66]

One thing I do with new players (total beginners), is get them to bounce the ball on the FH and then BH side. keep control of the bounce height etc really good for touch.

Its really easy to see the difference between the control they have between a bouncy sponge / grippy rubber combo compared to a harder sponge / tacky combo. Much harder to control the ball with the 1st set up.

However, it's also skill dependant, some people have natural feel and are good sports players, whatever they turn their hand to. This type of person will gain control of the bouncy / grippy set up quickly.

Where I coach, we bought some pre-made bats with good tacky rubbers, so that new players have a bat to use that is more suitable than a poor premade bat with little or no spin capability. Usually new starters turn up with a poor 'hobby' bat or no bat at all. (if they decide to continue with TT and improve, then they will buy their own bat and we can give advice, as what to choose.)
The slower, tacky, or slower, not too bouncy grippy set ups just seem to fit the bill for the 'majority of new players' better than faster bouncy set ups when starting off.

We went down the slow tacky route because of the control and spin factors, and the fact that 'natural' sportspersons are few and far between. But I would say that if a player is naturally gifted, then a faster bouncy grippy set up may be an alternative. or a faster tacky set up.

When you 1st start playing, there has to be a reward, something you can take away with you. If you hit, say 50% of the balls onto the table, you at least see some light at the end of the tunnel, A faster bouncy set up and you only hit 20% on to the table, you may leave feeling that TT is to difficult!!!

 

[Draycott old man]

I started my Girlfriend with Paul Drinkhall all round blade with Quantum max both sides.The main thing with beginners is to not have to fast a blade!!!! I believe most players have carbon blades when all wood would be so much better!! As long as you don't have the top premium rubbers I think a beginner can cope with a max rubber as long as it's on slower blade !!!!

 

[brokenball]

The blade determines the speed, not the rubber. Start with a slow blade and a hard rubber right away.

Are you saying there is no difference in speed between a rubber like T05 and an anti? The anti players will talk about the difference in speed between antis.
They both do affect the speed, but I think the blade has a bigger affect on the speed than the rubber.

 

[zeio]

There is no impulse or trajectory that a hard rubber can generate that a softer rubber cannot and visa versa assuming relatively similar paddles.

 

[Kopp]

Anyone agree with EmRatThich of PingSunday and his theory that you should learn with Max sponge and fast rubber?

I don't agree.

There is no one way of learning table tennis, i.e. using max. sponge and fast rubber only. Like some have said before, he has to prove and show himself before making any bold statement.

 

[JJ Ng]

I don't agree.

There is no one way of learning table tennis, i.e. using max. sponge and fast rubber only. Like some have said before, he has to prove and show himself before making any bold statement.

I think he contradicts himself. He believes in max sponge. But he also believes in starting with Chinese tacky rubber like friendship 729. And let me reassure you, friendship 729 is not a fast rubber. Oh well...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think he contradicts himself. He believes in max sponge. But he also believes in starting with Chinese tacky rubber like friendship 729. And let me reassure you, friendship 729 is not a fast rubber. Oh well...

The best answer would be "all is fine".

As each coach will have they own style in developing a player.
Every coach is different, every player is different, and there is never a right or wrong, as right for one, could be wrong for the other.

However, to be on the conservative side, slower equipment to learn on brushing technique over speed play, is always a safer bet than the speed over spin.

btw, maybe ERT feels the 729 is a fast rubber. For him, he could be right