EmRatThich says learn w/Max thickness, fast rubber?

[FrenchFrog33]

Anyone agree with EmRatThich of PingSunday and his theory that you should learn with Max sponge and fast rubber?

 

[NextLevel]

Why not? You can always change, but the role of equipment can be overstated if you have good guidance/coaching, which is the most important thing. If you want to minimize the changes, then under good guidance, start with what you intend to use long term. or something close to it. This is more important for rubbers than for blades, as rubber influences playing style more than blades do.

 

[Dominikk85]

I do think it can work but he is probably talking about young, talented kids who spend a lot of time on training.

I think for adult beginners or kids who only train 2-3 hours a week it isn't ideal.

That being said I think there is a trend of starting with thicker rubbers. I listened to a podcast with a high level German coach and he said to start around 1.8 or 1.9 or so and don't bother starting with a 1.5 or something like that because that could lead to developing a flat hitting game which he doesn't want, he wants kids starting to loop almost right away because he thinks that kids who start out with flat hitting often will fall back to flat hitting in tight spots even if they later have learned to loop.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Anyone agree with EmRatThich of PingSunday and his theory that you should learn with Max sponge and fast rubber?

I don't love ERT because most of what he presents is regurgitated from other sources and he does not give the sources or credit anyone.

Also, information needs a context. How do you play? What are you trying to develop? If you are trying to flat hit winners, and not trying to develop the skills of spinning the ball, thinner rubber is actually better and faster.

But if you are trying to develop the skills to spin and to spin everything, then thicker rubber will encourage spinning while thinner rubber will encourage more direct contact. With thinner rubber, the ball will fully compress the sponge and bottom out more easily and this is better for hitting. But you won't be encouraged to make the kind of contact that uses the sponge and the stretch of the topsheet to create more spin. With thicker rubber, and the idea that you want the ball to sink into the sponge and stretch the topsheet but NOT BOTTOM OUT as you make tangential contact, it will be easier to develop the skill to control the depth of contact without the ball banging into the wood of the blade too directly.

But once someone has that skill, they can use thinner rubber just fine as well.

BTW: it should be noted that, Werner Schlager said something similar about youth players wanting to develop the skills of two winged looping: that they should only use Max Thickness. But, again, everything needs to be put in fuller context.

People often say thinner sponge is slower and is easier to control. Both of those statements are inaccurate. On direct contact, thinner sponge IS FASTER because there is less dampening from the sponge to slow the ball down. Think about it, the wood is harder than the sponge and rubber. On direct contact, naked wood will be faster. If the sponge added speed, baseball players might try adding sponge to the outside of the baseball bat.

Thinner sponge is easier to control WHEN MAKING more direct contact (hitting flatter). When spinning the ball, you would need to be more precise with thinner sponge so it would actually be harder to control and that would also encourage you to hit flatter instead of spinning.

Thicker sponge gives you are larger window from when the ball contacts the topsheet to when the ball causes the sponge to bottom out and get propelled out by the harder surface of the blade face. The extra sponge also allows you to create more spin because the extra compression of the sponge before you bottom out also creates more stretch from the topsheet. That microscopic amount more stretch from the topsheet--when the ball starts moving away from the blade face, and the stretched topsheet rebounds--adds what is referred to as "mechanical spin". If more spin, on a topspin shot means the ball will arc down more and make it easier to land the ball on the table (which is why we use topspin on offensive shots in the first place, right?) then, on an offensive topspin shot, IF YOU KNOW HOW TO SPIN THE BALL, you should have more control over arcing the ball and landing it on the table with the thicker sponge.

It is worth analyzing the information and choosing for yourself what will be best for you.

But an adjustment from a thinner sponge to a thicker sponge if you are learning to spin better, is not a big adjustment. And the same goes the other way. I know plenty of fairly high level players who like thinner sponge because they can spin just as well with it (there technique is really good) but it gives them more flexibility in their shots because of what a thinner sponge can do on short game and on shots that benefit from more direct contact.

So, it is not black and white. But, I like Max Sponge for me. And I know other people much better than me who do like thinner sponge.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I wouldn't listen to ERT
If he was to have the guts and to come out as himself and to show the world, who he really is, then maybe there is some credit. (he is a self proclaim coach, but no one has seen him coaching ever, he only have videos of PROS, and he is maybe as good as a story teller)
But as Carl says, he has the habit of stealing other people's content and then put it as his. There isn't much original from him

My theory is, learn with a coach. Not one youtuber here, 3 forum members there etc

 

[NextLevel]

I wouldn't listen to ERT
If he was to have the guts and to come out as himself and to show the world, who he really is, then maybe there is some credit. (he is a self proclaim coach, but no one has seen him coaching ever, he only have videos of PROS, and he is maybe as good as a story teller)
But as Carl says, he has the habit of stealing other people's content and then put it as his. There isn't much original from him

My theory is, learn with a coach. Not one youtuber here, 3 forum members there etc

Developing a player appropriately is very different from repeating or parroting broad table tennis wisdoms. Many people can't tell the difference and it isn't their fault. I remember the father of the top Australian junior who lives in US, he once told me that the reason why he could get his son good coaching in TT was because he knew what good table tennis technique and coaching looked like (he played junior team in India and is still around 2200+ as an adult who doesn't train), the mistake he made in swimming was that he didn't know what good technique looked like, so he had his older son unfortunately take too many lessons in a low level environment (not that the coaches were not credentialed, but he couldn't tell when they were giving advice that was not going to push his son in the right direction). So in table tennis, he didn't go for the biggest name coach, he looked at what the coaches were teaching and decided what was best for his son. He could tell when the big name coach was teaching outdated technique.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Developing a player appropriately is very different from repeating or parroting broad table tennis wisdoms. Many people can't tell the difference and it isn't their fault. I remember the father of the top Australian junior who lives in US, he once told me that the reason why he could get his son good coaching in TT was because he knew what good table tennis technique and coaching looked like (he played junior team in India and is still around 2200+ as an adult who doesn't train), the mistake he made in swimming was that he didn't know what good technique looked like, so he had his older son unfortunately take too many lessons in a low level environment (not that the coaches were not credentialed, but he couldn't tell when they were giving advice that was not going to push his son in the right direction). So in table tennis, he didn't go for the biggest name coach, he looked at what the coaches were teaching and decided what was best for his son. He could tell when the big name coach was teaching outdated technique.

yeah,
that is a true and unfortunate truth, that the quality of coaches world wide is indeed a problem.

I do hope most coaches are able to direct a player on equipment and technique.
I think the chances of success is higher than youtube, google, forum members combined.

OP has been asking a dozen plus questions on equipment and also bought a lot of equipment. It could become a very expense and wasteful experience.
myself and quite a few other stated it is maybe more beneficial that some of that spending goes into a coach.
Well, it is his right to explore dozens of equipment and search for the best for him. TT companies love it.

I only really just commented as ERT is viewed as a coaching god, but he is at most an amateur story teller to me.
if you cut off his internet resources (to search for content), I wonder if he has a ability to write a 300 page coaching book or continue making content.
For people who coach and have experience from success and failures, then you can hear essence from the content. But story telling others? maybe the story being told is already fake, so we have a whole chain of mis-information and fake news.

So beware on ERT, treat it as a youtuber and that is about it. For coaching advise, seek a coach.

 

[NextLevel]

yeah,
that is a true and unfortunate truth, that the quality of coaches world wide is indeed a problem.

I do hope most coaches are able to direct a player on equipment and technique.
I think the chances of success is higher than youtube, google, forum members combined.

OP has been asking a dozen plus questions on equipment and also bought a lot of equipment. It could become a very expense and wasteful experience.
myself and quite a few other stated it is maybe more beneficial that some of that spending goes into a coach.
Well, it is his right to explore dozens of equipment and search for the best for him. TT companies love it.

I only really just commented as ERT is viewed as a coaching god, but he is at most an amateur story teller to me.
if you cut off his internet resources (to search for content), I wonder if he has a ability to write a 300 page coaching book or continue making content.
For people who coach and have experience from success and failures, then you can hear essence from the content. But story telling others? maybe the story being told is already fake, so we have a whole chain of mis-information and fake news.

So beware on ERT, treat it as a youtuber and that is about it. For coaching advise, seek a coach.

It is very valuable and helpful to hear you say this, when I pointed out such things on this forum years ago, even close friends at a good playing level made it sound like I was thinking too much, and that his videos were helpful. As you pointed out, ERT is just a TT Chat GPT, websearch and make content, but no real insight into the challenges people face in developing as players.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I guess, an addition to what I said above: why do people think thicker sponge is faster? If you are spinning the ball, you can swing harder and apply more force to the ball while still maintaining the control to arc the ball onto the table. With something that does not allow you to generate as much spin, you may need to cut down your stroke to keep the shot safe.

 

[brokenball]

Thicker sponges absorb energy more energy than thinner sponges.

EmRathich's assertion that if the ball bottoms out, the spin to speed ratio decreases ( the "throw" is lower " is valid.
Rubbers don't have control. I don't agree that learning on faster rubber is good for beginners. What is best is to find slower equipment but with the high spin to speed ratio. Then get faster equipment with the same spin to speed ratio.

The question about bottoming out bothers me. If you press one a sponge, how far will it depress? How much force do you think it took to depress the sponge? How would you measure it?
I have just the machine for this

https://deltamotion.com/peter/Pictures/Hydraulic%20Training/Hydraulic%20Training%20%20That%20tuned%20well.jpg

I would mount the rubber on the stationary part and mount half a TT able on the moving part and start squeezing.
I would need to mount a load cell in the system because the existing for force monitor system currently goes from 0 to 6000 lbs. A load cell would provided finer resolution.
I can measure the force as a function of penetration. The position resolutions would be 0.1 microns and the force would be from 0 to 500.01 N. You can see I have the ability to plot all results. Then we could see if the rubber really "bottoms" out or just becomes extremely non-linear. Yes, bottoming out qualifies as extremely non-linear.

How much does the ball deform? I could test that too.

 

[loerting]

The blade determines the speed, not the rubber. Start with a slow blade and a hard rubber right away.

 

[Attitude]

In TT we have too many variables to learn as a beginner. And i would count the thickness of a sponge as one of thos variables you could neglect as a developing player. The difference is way below a different blade or rubber in itself.

In regard of his statement i hardly disagree. As in nearly every life situation you trade speed for control (just take driving as an example, you wouldnt learn to drive with a racing car). So you should never learn to play with equipment that is so damn unlinear and fast, that you cant comprehend what you and your equipment are doing.

To give a rough idea/equation how i started to put things into perspective for myself: I would pick my equipment as slow as possible for training so i get a really good feeling and can develop a better technique way faster because i get the feedback i need. But i wouldnt go so slow that i wont be able to win matches anymore.

For example - before i played on a higher position i used to play with a really slow rubber on my bh, because i had issues to hit flicks on a regular basis. So i trained with it as long as i needed to develop my bh. The moment i played higher, many many many of my backhand openers were blocked or even counterattacked, due to the lack of speed and spin.
So i changed in between season and took my "new" developed bh with me to that new and faster rubber. Therefore i still had one of my best seasons ever.
And now i am sticking with kind of similar rubbers on my bh as for my fh, until i reach the point that i lack speed^^

Be aware, that is a really rough display of how i handle things currently. There might be more variables to it, but this should be enough to make my point here.
Going full out into highend equipment before you even can comprehend what is happening in TT will inhibit your development drastically imo

 

[igorponger]

Insane idea by a simpliton. Mima Ito purposely using hard slow sponge for training sessions.

be happy, dont be a meek prey.

 

[Attitude]

Insane idea by a simpliton. Mima Ito purposely using hard slow sponge for training sessions.

be happy, dont be a meek prey.

It irritates me anyway that ERT says smth like this although he usually proclaims theories of the chinese coachings, and they most certainly do not start with the fastest setups, at least from the knowledge i gathered in the last years.

What annoys me the most currently about ERT is the fact, that he makes videos and posts about the equipment of the pros, using information from tabletennisreference which is in 99% of the cases either plain wrong (the pro never used the rubbers or/and blade) or long outdated (the pro doesnt use the mentioned equipment anymore). Either way his information is at least questionable.

Besides the points Carl and Tony already mentioned, i think you definitly CAN learn a lot from youtube coaches, at least in terms of the basics and certain ideas and techiques.
For simple matters i actually kind of like the videos of Ti Long and tabletennis review. For more in depth i highly recommend pechpong, especially because here you can learn from someones own experience in his own game and see if it fits yourself too.

 

[Haito]

I would say that depends on the learning stage.

1. Level 0: Early stage, mostly hitting the ball, maybe a bit of backspin, no real top spin - Hobby grade 10€ bat
2. Beginner - Intermediate Thin 7 ply, 2.1 mm rubbers not harder than 47.5 degrees, ideally softer for kids.
3. ADvanced ++ - max whatever gear is the best for the playing style.

I do not know when is the transition from 0 to beginner in my "more professional club", but in the school I play after hours, it is happening when player stops goofing around and handles bh and fh drive without too many mistakes.

 

[blahness]

It irritates me anyway that ERT says smth like this although he usually proclaims theories of the chinese coachings, and they most certainly do not start with the fastest setups, at least from the knowledge i gathered in the last years.

What annoys me the most currently about ERT is the fact, that he makes videos and posts about the equipment of the pros, using information from tabletennisreference which is in 99% of the cases either plain wrong (the pro never used the rubbers or/and blade) or long outdated (the pro doesnt use the mentioned equipment anymore). Either way his information is at least questionable.

Besides the points Carl and Tony already mentioned, i think you definitly CAN learn a lot from youtube coaches, at least in terms of the basics and certain ideas and techiques.
For simple matters i actually kind of like the videos of Ti Long and tabletennis review. For more in depth i highly recommend pechpong, especially because here you can learn from someones own experience in his own game and see if it fits yourself too.

I agree - watching Ti Long videos should be mandatory. He teaches many, many very important concepts especially how to use power from the body (and not the arm), and how to brush the ball with the fingers. For Chinese speakers Fang Bo's channel and Sun Hao Hong tutorials are a goldmine too.

ERT is just a YouTuber who always uses clickbait to gain views 😂

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Three month of lessons with a professional coach ( say: once a week ) >>> 1,000 hrs of watching Youtube tutorial videos.

 

[JJ Ng]

It irritates me anyway that ERT says smth like this although he usually proclaims theories of the chinese coachings, and they most certainly do not start with the fastest setups, at least from the knowledge i gathered in the last years.

What annoys me the most currently about ERT is the fact, that he makes videos and posts about the equipment of the pros, using information from tabletennisreference which is in 99% of the cases either plain wrong (the pro never used the rubbers or/and blade) or long outdated (the pro doesnt use the mentioned equipment anymore). Either way his information is at least questionable.

Besides the points Carl and Tony already mentioned, i think you definitly CAN learn a lot from youtube coaches, at least in terms of the basics and certain ideas and techiques.
For simple matters i actually kind of like the videos of Ti Long and tabletennis review. For more in depth i highly recommend pechpong, especially because here you can learn from someones own experience in his own game and see if it fits yourself too.

I second that I follow Ti Long and pechpong as well. They are much more helpful than ERT.

However, once you understand table tennis and once you learn the basic strokes, everything else is a variation of these basic strokes. Once you watch a couple video's, you should be able to extrapolate.

ERT's channel is entertaining but in more recent years, it has become a click bait channel. I mean for an 18-minute video, you will be watching 16 minutes of the same stuff being repeated over and over again. I am glad on my YouTube algorithm, ERT's contents are appearing less and less.

A coach who is good for advanced player might not be good for beginners. The opposite might be true as well: a developing junior player might outgrow his or her current coach at some point.

That is the case across the the world of sports and music instruments (such as violin teaching).

To me coaching is intuitive. You just need to assess the situation and work with what you have. Many adult players who begin their table tennis journey have certain limitations (back pain, elbow issues, etc.). A good coach knows how to work with these limitations and give their students the most enjoyment out of table tennis.

As for the developing junior players, they are not all slate of sand where you could just impose whatever techniques you have on them. Some of them are more intuitive with certain strokes (I think there was a reason Manika Batra became a long pips blocker on the BH side). Some of them have this level of motor or a level of touch (or feel for the balls) that others don't have. You work with that. Some will progress quickly. Some might progress slower, and the coach's job should be to keep the sport fun and encourge the kid to use what their learn in table tennis to become successful in other areas of life.

But a good coach is able to assess the situation quickly and already have the next 10 lession plans laid out.

One time, I was at the club and an adult player was getting lessons from a junior coach (junior as in young, inexperienced coach who is a very very good player). They were getting frustrated and both seemed to be clueless about what was going on. I took a look and saw the adult player was hold the penhold blade way too loose/shallow and his wrist was moving all over the place. I corrected that and he still thanked me 3 years later (I used to play penhold). It was a simple easy fix but both people at the table were not able to see it.

Another adult player I was playing with in double, he just kept on missing all the loops coming at him. I finally got frustrated and told him, get close to the table and just block the top spin right off the bounce. No need to smash the balls. No need to even freaking time the ball. Just take the ball right off the bounce and loosen your grip. Then immediately, he started blocking all the loops back 90% of the time. He later told me, well, I look at other advanced players in the club and they are all countering topspin with more topspin so he thought he should do the same. I am like, no, you develop the touch first and then you can graduate to smacking the ball as hard you can later.

A lot of the adult players at my club never got proper coaching. I had to ask them to come closer to the table and hit the ball less hard to "feel their blade." Table tennis is a sport where you develop the touch close to the table and then gradually you move away from the table using the same strokes you develop before, but with bigger motion and faster speed. Apparently that basic concept is missing (well, maybe they all got started on Timo Boll ALC with Tenergy 05 as their initial set-up so.....).

Let us say, coaching is also a talent. Some people are talented in coaching while others are just not.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

I second that I follow Ti Long and pechpong as well. They are much more helpful than ERT.

However, once you understand table tennis and once you learn the basic strokes, everything else is a variation of these basic strokes. Once you watch a couple video's, you should be able to extrapolate.

ERT's channel is entertaining but in more recent years, it has become a click bait channel. I mean for an 18-minute video, you will be watching 16 minutes of the same stuff being repeated over and over again. I am glad on my YouTube algorithm, ERT's contents are appearing less and less.

A coach who is good for advanced player might not be good for beginners. The opposite might be true as well: a developing junior player might outgrow his or her current coach at some point.

That is the case across the the world of sports and music instruments (such as violin teaching).

To me coaching is intuitive. You just need to assess the situation and work with what you have. Many adult players who begin their table tennis journey have certain limitations (back pain, elbow issues, etc.). A good coach knows how to work with these limitations and give their students the most enjoyment out of table tennis.

As for the developing junior players, they are not all slate of sand where you could just impose whatever techniques you have on them. Some of them are more intuitive with certain strokes (I think there was a reason Manika Batra became a long pips blocker on the BH side). Some of them have this level of motor or a level of touch (or feel for the balls) that others don't have. You work with that. Some will progress quickly. Some might progress slower, and the coach's job should be to keep the sport fun and encourge the kid to use what their learn in table tennis to become successful in other areas of life.

But a good coach is able to assess the situation quickly and already have the next 10 lession plans laid out.

One time, I was at the club and an adult player was getting lessons from a junior coach (junior as in young, inexperienced coach who is a very very good player). They were getting frustrated and both seemed to be clueless about what was going on. I took a look and saw the adult player was hold the penhold blade way too loose/shallow and his wrist was moving all over the place. I corrected that and he still thanked me 3 years later (I used to play penhold). It was a simple easy fix but both people at the table were not able to see it.

Another adult player I was playing with in double, he just kept on missing all the loops coming at him. I finally got frustrated and told him, get close to the table and just block the top spin right off the bounce. No need to smash the balls. No need to even freaking time the ball. Just take the ball right off the bounce and loosen your grip. Then immediately, he started blocking all the loops back 90% of the time. He later told me, well, I look at other advanced players in the club and they are all countering topspin with more topspin so he thought he should do the same. I am like, no, you develop the touch first and then you can graduate to smacking the ball as hard you can later.

A lot of the adult players at my club never got proper coaching. I had to ask them to come closer to the table and hit the ball less hard to "feel their blade." Table tennis is a sport where you develop the touch close to the table and then gradually you move away from the table using the same strokes you develop before, but with bigger motion and faster speed. Apparently that basic concept is missing (well, maybe they all got started on Timo Boll ALC with Tenergy 05 as their initial set-up so.....).

Let us say, coaching is also a talent. Some people are talented in coaching while others are just not.

Just an input from my personal experience. I have seen with my own eyes, coach recommend Viscaria to a newbie after 4 mths of coaching lessons. Subject is a teenager ( U15 category ). The take-away point is, a noob can be allowed to use fast set-up provided under coaching. So the notion that noob must use only slow set-up is not set in stone nor gospel truth.

Rubber used is Donic M1 (FH) and M2 (BH). Coach wanted to recommend T05 (FH) & BH (Rozena) but parent thought T05 is too pricey, so a compromise was made.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Besides the points Carl and Tony already mentioned, i think you definitly CAN learn a lot from youtube coaches, at least in terms of the basics and certain ideas and techiques.
For simple matters i actually kind of like the videos of Ti Long and tabletennis review. For more in depth i highly recommend pechpong, especially because here you can learn from someones own experience in his own game and see if it fits yourself too.

ERT is not a youtube coach, he is only a story teller.
the other channels you mentioned, are youtube coach. at least you can see that they can hit the ball and can determine the ability and view of the coach (mostly as they own views)

Just imagine, if ERT is a USATT 1000 player and we all worshiping him, because he has 10 hours a day to edit videos. Isn't that funny?
Proper full time coaches, coach more hours a day, then actual sleep hours.