Generating heavy backspin with long pips chop

[allencorn]

There is a series of videos of Shiono from several years ago where he is training a young Japanese chopper, and I recall he demonstrated the difference between using long pips to put underspin on an incoming push or creating a dead ball from that push. His underspin was heavy. The narrative was in Japanese, but the drills and videos were highly instructive. Let me know if you can't find them- I may have them saved somewhere.

 

[andymagata]

How much effect on spin creation would alignment, horizontal, vertical or custom, have? Because I seldom hold my bat straight vertical or horizontal when I chop, so custom would be best?

 

[belllfador]

Yeah, of course I won't be able to generate the same amount of backspin compared to an inverted rubber. So I guess what I am asking is: how do I generate enough backspin to make my opponent hesitate on their next attack? The pro players seem to be able to make sufficient spin with their pips, maybe even like 50rps. How do I learn how to do this?

Chopping at 50rpm is not a challenge for an experienced looper. Especially with overly boosted H3. Pips, no pips, classic chop, strawberry chop - nothing matters when the return ball is high and accessible. If you are playing against people that can't lift backspin, probably they game does not focus on spin and you can use double inverted.

There is a huge difference between 388D-1 OX, 0.5mm and 1mm sponge. With the sponge, the spin reversal is minimal to non, but you can generate more spin and even lift some balls. The speed is lower, but more predictable, imo. And inverted rubber can generate more spin to the point that opponent's pushes are dropping to the table, even before the net. I am not able to recreate this situations with any LP.

Honoka is changing her blade angle to apply a spin variation. And you can find out how long it takes to win a point against top 10. Spin is just one of the many aspects. Speed, ball placement, variation and offense are also very important.

 

[belllfador]

How much effect on spin creation would alignment, horizontal, vertical or custom, have? Because I seldom hold my bat straight vertical or horizontal when I chop, so custom would be best?

It depends on the rubber. I observed the highest spin variation with Degu 2. That is very spiny SP. With SDK the spin variation is there, but was not so dangerous. Both of them are in a horizontal orientation. I played some time ago with Pimple Slide (vertical pips) but my notes mention only very low base spin, and minimal spin variation.

 

[Matteones]

Yeah, of course I won't be able to generate the same amount of backspin compared to an inverted rubber. So I guess what I am asking is: how do I generate enough backspin to make my opponent hesitate on their next attack? The pro players seem to be able to make sufficient spin with their pips, maybe even like 50rps. How do I learn how to do this?

I think you are confusing variation with "enough backspin to make an opponent hesitate" and that you are chasing a chimera. The pro players you see do not make their opponent hesitate by chopping heavily a no-spin ball (because it is impossible with a long pimple), they make the opponent hesitate by variating the position, length and speed of that chop, which by necessity will not be heavy (or whatever you think is enough) spin, if that's what you want maybe try short pimples.
Joo Se Hyuk examples:

Second 0.05 - Ma Long sends a fast very light topspin serve (almost all fast serves by necessity have a little topspin on it, but you may call them no-spin). Slow down the video and really analyze that chop that Joo does and Ma's push after it: it has very little spin.

Second 0.14 - Just the same on Ma Long's flip
Second 0.33 - During the rally, Ma Long pushes (with almost no - spin) one of Joo's chops, then he misreads the subsequent cut, thinking it's backspin, and lightly pops it up because it really is no-spin.
I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, but having found three in the first 40 seconds tells you a story.

 

[PickleRick]

After playing as a long pips chopper for a while, it seems like there is a pretty big difficulty with the setup: when the opponent sends no-spin balls to the backhand. Watching pro choppers, it seems like they manage to chop the no-spin balls with enough backspin so that the opponent doesn't have an easy attack on the next ball, and I am wondering how they manage to do this.

Are there any choppers here who can give me some technique tips for how to generate maximum backspin with long pips? I'm still not sure how to do it well and there's not much advice on YouTube -- all the tutorials are for how to play OX long pips push-block style. Any tips or intuition for the feeling and technique would be greatly appreciated.

Is there a rubber which is best for generating spin on empty balls? I've been using Feint Long 2/3 with max sponge, and considering trying some of the Victas Curl rubbers.

In my experience it's not really possible to generate considerable backspin when you receive a fast empty ball with your long pimple rubber. The best you can do is to bring it back low and deep so that the next attack is not too strong. When opponents keep doing the same serve to your backhand, you should just twiddle after their toss to your inverted rubber. Those serves are easy to attack. Most of the time your opponent will change his serve tactics after you have attacked a few of those serves.

 

[UncleJong]

Max sponge of FL2 & 3 is only 1.3mm. Ilius S&B also the same.
Victas P series has 1.5mm sponge, and all topsheet has good friction.

Ease of creating backspin in short game: P3av/P4v > P3v > P1v
P1v requires higher power to generate backspin so not easy for short game. But away from table you got space to do full stroke to generate backspin.
P3av/P4/P3 can do backspin push rally if you got proper technique. Threshold is much lower than with P1v.

Blade with longer dwell time can also be helpful.
Example: when I used BTY JSH & P1r 1.5 10yrs ago, sucessful rate of create backspin push was really really low; Since I switched to Nexy JSH1 & P3av, the amont of backspin push surprised my opponent quite often. Besides technique, Nexy JSH1 has much softer top layer which helps catch the ball, just like what Joo said in the promotion video.

About how to add backspin with LP, Joo has explained well in this vedio:

starting 7:51

Another thing I sensed but not quite sure is, the way to do backspin push with FL2 & Ilius is to use pip top but not the pip side (or the pip floor). Try it out and see if you can find the right way to activate it.
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To deal with no-spin ball : above are all applicable, just the limit and outcome would be lower.

Welcome to the thick-sponge LP group btw

 

[BackhandSteve]

Joo sae Hyuk mostly chops far from the table.

You should try Victas Curl P1V max sponge, which is what Joo Sae-hyuk uses, also know as the best defender of all time. Even though it's a challenge video, I think you could see a good view of his backhand chop with long pips while it's being looped to his backhand side. Also OOAK forum should be able to find you much better advice and possibly videos.

Joo plays mostly far from the table when chopping. Which is highly dependant on the opponents skills to loop. So if you are a normal player i dont think its realistic to always play far from the table. This is something you should know before you try Joo's setup. I also play ox long pips and I cannot do much backspin either on no spin balls but i twiddle my racket when I can to make up for it. I think for a normal kind of player a allround long pips is the most fun and therefore the best.

 

[Felipe Pipe..]

It really depends on your style of play—whether you play close to the table like Chulong nie (or similar "chopper-blockers") or as a long-distance defender like Ruwen Filus.
From my experience, here are a few tips:

Don't chop everything: Sometimes a proper technical gesture combined with a deep, long ball to your opponent's backhand is enough. It makes them hesitate to attack.

The "Speed" Trap: If your chop is fast, the opponent might struggle to read the amount of backspin. If they try to loop or attack it, the ball will often fly off the table (go long).

The Dead Ball: If you push the ball low and long, you can return a "dead" ball that floats. This is very tricky for the opponent because they have to generate all the power and spin themselves, which makes it easy for you to counter-attack.