Interesting experience with Bluefire...

[Wrighty67]

So last night I was having my weekly lesson with my coach, when he asked me to try his bat..

It was a Donic all-round blade (not sure of the model but have asked him) with Bluefire M1 pro turbo on both sides. My bat is a 301x with H3 pro on FH and Rakza 9 on BH. What was interesting was the the drill we were doing was backhand and forehand topspin openers against long backspin - so brushing up.

I was immediately more consistent with his bat - which he attributed to the rubber being softer.

On looking it up at home, I discovered that Bluefire M1 turbo is anything but soft and is in fact harder than my Rakza (if not my 41 deg H3) - so why did I find it so easy to use and more consistent is something that is of interest to me?

His blade may have been slower but was also carbon layer of some sort, and the 301x is not particularly fast to my hands.

Any thoughts - is Bluefire just a great rubber in terms of feel?

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

So last night I was having my weekly lesson with my coach, when he asked me to try his bat..

It was a Donic all-round blade (not sure of the model but have asked him) with Bluefire M1 pro turbo on both sides. My bat is a 301x with H3 pro on FH and Rakza 9 on BH. What was interesting was the the drill we were doing was backhand and forehand topspin openers against long backspin - so brushing up.

I was immediately more consistent with his bat - which he attributed to the rubber being softer.

On looking it up at home, I discovered that Bluefire M1 turbo is anything but soft and is in fact harder than my Rakza (if not my 41 deg H3) - so why did I end it so easy to use and more consistent is something that is of interest to me?

His blade may have been slower but was also carbon layer of some sort, and the 301x is not particularly fast to my hands.

Any thoughts - is Bluefire just a great rubber in terms of feel?

I am a Bluefire M1 user on FH here, not the Turbo version though. Yes, Bluefire series is a wonderful rubber. Strong trampoline effect. My coach use to say, let the rubber do the work for you. Bluefire indeed do a lot of work for me.

Bluefire series has one of the highest arc amongst all Donic's new rubber. So, it has, on paper a high safety margin with looping against underspin. So, loop away my friend, with bluefire, underspin ball shall be the least of your worries going forward.

 

[Wrighty67]

I am a Bluefire M1 user on FH here, not the Turbo version though. Yes, Bluefire series is a wonderful rubber. Strong trampoline effect. My coach use to say, let the rubber do the work for you. Bluefire indeed do a lot of work for me.

Bluefire series has one of the highest arc amongst all Donic's new rubber. So, it has, on paper a high safety margin with looping against underspin. So, loop away my friend, with bluefire, underspin ball shall be the least of your worries going forward.

Thanks for the insight Gozo.

Can I ask - how does the BF compare to the Rakza 7, and would you consider BF on your BH too?

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Thanks for the insight Gozo.

Can I ask - how does the BF compare to the Rakza 7, and would you consider BF on your BH too?

BF M2 is a good candidate for BH use.

However, one of the pro level player in my country said he uses the M1 version for BH.

I personally have not used BF M2 on my BH, but on paper, it should be quite similar to Rakza 7. Price wise, M2 & R7 is very similar, hence there is no advantage one over the other. I am impartial on which one to use.

 

[Dominikk85]

Some rubbers are great for one player and bad for another one. If you like it maybe give it a try.

 

[WingTT]

In true EJ fashion, the only way to answer the question is to pony up and get yourself at least one sheet of the rubber to try it out. If that does not work out, it may be your coach has the one true Donic all-round super blade. He could have selected a very good one and there are few others are like it. Ask him for the weight of his blade and get the same model/weight and compare it to the coach's blade. It may be illuminating.

 

[IB66]

Hi,
How a rubber feels is not only down to the sponge hardness, the feel as far as soft or hardness is concerned, is a combination of blade, sponge and rubber top sheet etc.
Bluefire M1 is about 50 degree hardness sponge, Rakza 9 about 40-45 degree and the H3 provincial at 41 degrees (which is measured on a different hardness scale, DHS use a different hardness scale to Donic) comes in at about 53 degree (ish) on the hardness scale used by Donic.
so the H3 has harder sponge than the BF M1.
Also the BF M1 top sheet is likely to be softer than the H3's

Never used Rakza 9 so I don't know how soft the the rubber top sheet is or feels. But maybe it should feel as soft or softer than the BF M1

With a heavy brush stroke, similar to lifting a back spin ball, it's less likely to engage the sponge as much as a flat hit or drive. So it's the rubber top sheet that you may actually feel more!! the softer more springy the rubber top sheet is, the more help you'll get (to a certain extent).

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi,
How a rubber feels is not only down to the sponge hardness, the feel as far as soft or hardness is concerned, is a combination of blade, sponge and rubber top sheet etc.
Bluefire M1 is about 50 degree hardness sponge, Rakza 9 about 40-45 degree and the H3 provincial at 41 degrees (which is measured on a different hardness scale, DHS use a different hardness scale to Donic) comes in at about 53 degree (ish) on the hardness scale used by Donic.
so the H3 has harder sponge than the BF M1.
Also the BF M1 top sheet is likely to be softer than the H3's

Never used Rakza 9 so I don't know how soft the the rubber top sheet is or feels. But maybe it should feel as soft or softer than the BF M1

With a heavy brush stroke, similar to lifting a back spin ball, it's less likely to engage the sponge as much as a flat hit or drive. So it's the rubber top sheet that you may actually feel more!! the softer more springy the rubber top sheet is, the more help you'll get (to a certain extent).

That's really helpful - and lines up with my thinking about the hardness not adding up. These rubbers last night felt softish and high dwell which allowed me to build a more confident stroke on BH in particular (I don't struggle with my FH as much)

It certainly makes sense that it's a top sheet issue

 

[Wrighty67]

In true EJ fashion, the only way to answer the question is to pony up and get yourself at least one sheet of the rubber to try it out. If that does not work out, it may be your coach has the one true Donic all-round super blade. He could have selected a very good one and there are few others are like it. Ask him for the weight of his blade and get the same model/weight and compare it to the coach's blade. It may be illuminating.

Yeah, that's what's worrying me - more rubber to try...

I have asked him about the blade but more sure I am ready to buy another blade just yet ;-)

 

[KM1976]

I have been a long term donic user before I started trying other brands. I used Bluefire M2 on FH and BH 5-6 times and also used M2 FH and M3 BH. I found M3 BH very good as it gives more versatility near the table. I also used Donic Coppa JO Gold, JO Platinum and Sonex JP Gold extensively like 15-20 sheets of each over a long term period and all of them are very good. If you looking for something similar to Rakza 7 in Donic lineup then Sonex JP Gold is something you might consider. But be informed that Yasaka rubbers in general last much more than Donic rubbers as per my opinion.

 

[Haito]

Hi,
How a rubber feels is not only down to the sponge hardness, the feel as far as soft or hardness is concerned, is a combination of blade, sponge and rubber top sheet etc.
Bluefire M1 is about 50 degree hardness sponge, Rakza 9 about 40-45 degree and the H3 provincial at 41 degrees (which is measured on a different hardness scale, DHS use a different hardness scale to Donic) comes in at about 53 degree (ish) on the hardness scale used by Donic.
so the H3 has harder sponge than the BF M1.
Also the BF M1 top sheet is likely to be softer than the H3's

Never used Rakza 9 so I don't know how soft the the rubber top sheet is or feels. But maybe it should feel as soft or softer than the BF M1

With a heavy brush stroke, similar to lifting a back spin ball, it's less likely to engage the sponge as much as a flat hit or drive. So it's the rubber top sheet that you may actually feel more!! the softer more springy the rubber top sheet is, the more help you'll get (to a certain extent).

41 Shore A is close to 60 on the ESN scale.

 

[latej]

My bat is a 301x with H3 pro on FH and Rakza 9 on BH.

Rakza 9 is the bounciest Rakza. Also if you look at the sponge you can see the bubbles are quite big. A friend of mine recently "stepped down", if we can call it that, from Rakza 9 to Rakza X on BH. Rakza X is slower, but not slow, imo it's like upgrade of Rakza 7, a bit more elastic and powerful. I think you could consider all those 3 Rakzas for BH: 7, X and Z.

 

[dajdosta]

Bluefire has poor durability, at least M2 does. Rakza 7 lasts a lot longer.

 

[IB66]

41 Shore A is close to 60 on the ESN scale.

ESN scale? Is that another scale? I was converting 40/41 degree Shore A to Shore D scale, which I thought ESN uses?

 

[Wrighty67]

Rakza 9 is the bounciest Rakza. Also if you look at the sponge you can see the bubbles are quite big. A friend of mine recently "stepped down", if we can call it that, from Rakza 9 to Rakza X on BH. Rakza X is slower, but not slow, imo it's like upgrade of Rakza 7, a bit more elastic and powerful. I think you could consider all those 3 Rakzas for BH: 7, X and Z.

Thanks, I agree that Rakza 9 is pretty lively - 7 may have been a better choice in hindsight

 

[Brs]

When you first try a new setup for a few minutes, particularly one belonging to a respected player or coach, oftentimes you immediately play much better. Usually the improvement does not carry over if you make that setup your main playing bat. Not always. But usually it does not.

 

[Haito]

ESN scale? Is that another scale? I was converting 40/41 degree Shore A to Shore D scale, which I thought ESN uses?

I think that the closest one is Shore O, but due to nature of these scales, I don't think you can really convert them from one to another. The tools to measure the thing are different and thas same materials will respond different.

 

[IB66]

I think that the closest one is Shore O, but due to nature of these scales, I don't think you can really convert them from one to another. The tools to measure the thing are different and thas same materials will respond different.

My mistake, I was using table and converting from A to O, and yep they are approximate.
generally 37 degree Shore A is around 50 degree shore O, 40 degree Shore A about 53 degree Shore O, so it’s likely that 41 degree Shore A is around 54/55 degree Shore O. Again approximate values!!
It’s a real headache!! Shame that a standard hardness scale for sponges, rubber top sheets and the combined sponge/top sheet cannot be agreed on, or made ‘mandatory’ as part of the ITTF rules for rubbers, should be standardised and part of the product packaging!!!

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

My mistake, I was using table and converting from A to O, and yep they are approximate.
generally 37 degree Shore A is around 50 degree shore O, 40 degree Shore A about 53 degree Shore O, so it’s likely that 41 degree Shore A is around 54/55 degree Shore O. Again approximate values!!
It’s a real headache!! Shame that a standard hardness scale for sponges, rubber top sheets and the combined sponge/top sheet cannot be agreed on, or made ‘mandatory’ as part of the ITTF rules for rubbers, should be standardised and part of the product packaging!!!

ITTF is beholden to those big corporate sponsors. Do you think ITTF will play the role of a policeman and force their generous sponsors to spend more money to standardise the hardness rating and in the process cure many amateurs of their EJ'ing disease? I think not!

 

[IB66]

ITTF is beholden to those big corporate sponsors. Do you think ITTF will play the role of a policeman and force their generous sponsors to spend more money to standardise the hardness rating and in the process cure many amateurs of their EJ'ing disease? I think not!

No they won’t unless it fits their needs, they already insist that rubbers are inspected and sanctioned for use in certain grades of tournaments. ITTF approved.
The manufacturers already have the information like sponge only hardness and elasticity, top sheet only hardness, elasticity etc, combined sponge and rubber elasticity and hardness. They just don’t like to publish these figures. Sure part of this is to sell more products. Perhaps adding extra info would increase the EJ’ing disease??!!!!!!!