Is 10 years training, a lot?

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Dan asked me to share this here with everyone.

I once had a conversation with a top level coach.
We talked about someone with 10 years of training, but what does it really mean?

If someone has 10 years of training, but only trains 5 or 10 hours a week. For 10 years.
Is that person really an expert in the field (a 10 years expert?)
While expert in the field all train 30 to 40 hours a week.
That 10 year expert (at 10 hours a week / 5000 hours in 10 years) is barely only 2.5 years old in "expert" years.

Now lets take the above theory and turn it into a practical element in (fill in your country) table tennis. How many players actually train 500 hours a year?
Mind you, TT season at 6 month (how many train off season?) is 80 hours a month, 20 hours a week? If we change that to 10 hours a week, but for half a year only? It is 2500 hours in 10 years (1.25 years old in "experts" years)

The above is quantity. A BIG next topic is quality.

You need both Q&Q to become an expert.
Then people are upset when the word "amateur" is used, while they think they are "pros".
The truth is we talking part timers with full timers.

If you do anything in life, the Q&Q determines what level you are at the end.

So 10 years later, then you ask, why the gap in the level?
Why can't we win even 1 game against the pros?
Is it mentality?
Is it skills?
Is it BMT?
Is it lack of match experience?
Is it lack of funding?

Answer is simple: Q&Q, show me the numbers.
and until you can make room for the hours, and back it with Q&Q, the gap becomes larger and larger, year on year.

 

[Der_Echte]

I trained in Korea 4 years from a former pro... but it was only 2x a week 20 minutes... that is not even 3 hrs a month or not even 150 hours !!!

There was a 10 yr old kid in Boston whose parents sent to China to train for a summer... 10+ hrs a day.

That 10yr old kid trained more in than two weeks than I did in four years.

 

[brokenball]

Dan asked me to share this here with everyone.

I once had a conversation with a top level coach.
We talked about someone with 10 years of training, but what does it really mean?

Someone is a slow learner.

If someone has 10 years of training, but only trains 5 or 10 hours a week. For 10 years.
Is that person really an expert in the field (a 10 years expert?)

Not necessarily. I would judge by results.

While expert in the field all train 30 to 40 hours a week.

If you want to learn quickly. I went to a post graduate school where there was 30 hours of class, and then there was studying and home work. The goal was to learn quickly.

That 10 year expert (at 10 hours a week / 5000 hours in 10 years) is barely only 2.5 years old in "expert" years.

very possible. I am seen examples.
Kids are more permeable. They can learn quickly if not distracted

Now lets take the above theory and turn it into a practical element in (fill in your country) table tennis. How many players actually train 500 hours a year?

I doubt there are many. Too many people are just trying to get by. China may be different. My 3rd coach won a tournament when he was about 13 and was sent to a Chinese TT "high school" were other like him trained intensely for the CNT. He didn't make it and was basically thrown out on the street with no real "high school" education but he was a very good TT player.

I think I really majored in TT my first year of college but then studies got in the way. There was no trainiing though.

Mind you, TT season at 6 month (how many train off season?) is 80 hours a month, 20 hours a week? If we change that to 10 hours a week, but for half a year only? It is 2500 hours in 10 years (1.25 years old in "experts" years)

I doubt there are many for the reasons I gave. One needs to eat.

The above is quantity. A BIG next topic is quality.

You need both Q&Q to become an expert.
Then people are upset when the word "amateur" is used, while they think they are "pros".

Pros make enough money to live on. Amateurs don't. It is simple. It is hard to live on TT earnings in the US.
There are other sports that will pay more and have a greater chance of becoming a "pro"

The truth is we talking part timers with full timers.

If you do anything in life, the Q&Q determines what level you are at the end.

So 10 years later, then you ask, why the gap in the level?
Why can't we win even 1 game against the pros?
Is it mentality?
Is it skills?
Is it BMT?
Is it lack of match experience?
Is it lack of funding?

All the above. In the US, if you are athletic, there are other sports that pay more.

Answer is simple: Q&Q, show me the numbers.

I say show me the results. "Show me the money!"
Unfortunately, there isn't much to be made in the US.
I really wonder how much the top pros do make?

and until you can make room for the hours, and back it with Q&Q, the gap becomes larger and larger, year on year.

Agreed. As time goes on, it is harder to close the gap due to age.

I have a few different views on this topic.
Compare training for gold vs training for TT. Both require good strokes but...
Once one gets the mechanics down, how much is spent on strategy. How to play a hole vs how to play an opponent. I know that days when I am more tired, I don't play as "smart" and that makes a big difference.

What about the coaching? Is endless multi-ball that efficient? I was at a sport center in Pudong, Shanghai, China years back and we had to wait for while 3 coaches were "training" students. Two coaches were making their students do a lot of multi-ball but weren't paying attention to what the students were doing wrong. Yes, you can return the ball with bad strokes but they are still bad strokes. In my view the coaches were just going through the motions. In my case the coach didn't correct my stroke or recognize my stroke was not optimal. I needed to made a video of myself to learn. I hate multi-ball. I can do that with a robot.

What about something as basic as returning chopped balls? Yes, you can practice until you get it right but could you get it right faster if you knew what right was to begin with?

For instance. People learn by trial and error. There are no consequences for all the errors along the way so it is acceptable. This is not true for designing air craft or space craft where learning by trial and error is not acceptable. So how can the learning by trial and error be reduced in TT? Maybe with better training techniques it will be easier learn at a faster rate.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Someone is a slow learner.

I won't say 10 years equates slow learners.
10 years is the norm for a lot of "expert" fields.
In TT, Pros are still learning today. FZD is not a slow learning, he had to learn a new FH technique.

Not necessarily. I would judge by results.

Sure, take part in a WTT Feeder series, and see if one can win a game, or is it going to be 11-1 all 3 games.
But then, one with no Q&Q won't even bother trying to take part in Feeder, or won't even qualify.

But if your standard is only comparing with the neighorhood tournament, then we talking apples and oranges.

If you want to learn quickly. I went to a post graduate school where there was 30 hours of class, and then there was studying and home work. The goal was to learn quickly.

Yes, there are few exceptions where 1 hour equates to other peoples 10 hours. This can be where quality comes in.
Since TT is an art, it is a skill. Can 1 year of medical school equates to 5 or 10 years, or 1 year of piano vs 10? Can you really be quick? yes, maybe a natural born genius and they do appear. But for the other 99.99%, it requires Q&Q

very possible. I am seen examples.
Kids are more permeable. They can learn quickly if not distracted

Apples vs apples, both sides are kids?
kids vs adults, is then apples vs oranges.

I doubt there are many. Too many people are just trying to get by. China may be different. My 3rd coach won a tournament when he was about 13 and was sent to a Chinese TT "high school" were other like him trained intensely for the CNT. He didn't make it and was basically thrown out on the street with no real "high school" education but he was a very good TT player.

talking apples vs apples. If someone is training to be an elite/expert - then read my OP. If just training to be an amateur, then OP won't apply for them.

And yes, TT in China is harsh.

Only 24 make it to the CNT 1st team and 24 in 2nd. There are 30 provinces, each with 20 players in senior and 20 in junior. Over 1000 players are trying to make the cut into the 48.
Outside these 1000, there is another 10000 or 20000 that are trying to get into this 1000.
thousands drop out every year, because they can't make it up. (up or out policy)
TT expert level is not for the faint heart in China.

With the same hours of investment in say cooking, you can have a nice job with no real high school education (sadly, I know a lot of people personally that don't have much education)
So, for China....there is a sad story indeed. But that is another subject.
If we only look at the negative, then you could argue, university is pointless too. Since which of the world riches actually finish university.

I think I really majored in TT my first year of college but then studies got in the way. There was no trainiing though.

Most social/amateur are like that. For elite in almost every art/sport, you need to start young.
Very few that can start late in life and still becoming a professional.
Wasn't there that Greek basketball player that started to play basketball at 16 yrs old and become an all-star in the NBA? that is rare.

I doubt there are many for the reasons I gave. One needs to eat.

Pros make enough money to live on. Amateurs don't. It is simple. It is hard to live on TT earnings in the US.
There are other sports that will pay more and have a greater chance of becoming a "pro"

Pros can find ways to eat.
Income, or result of Q&Q is another subject.

All the above. In the US, if you are athletic, there are other sports that pay more.

The above numbers apply to anything in life, any sport.
Replace TT with something else.

I say show me the results. "Show me the money!"
Unfortunately, there isn't much to be made in the US.
I really wonder how much the top pros do make?

I'm talking about progress, and you talking about results again.
Its easy to talk about the end, and forget about the journey.

Do you think you can have no Q&Q and have a chance of great result?
You invest early in Q&Q, would have a higher chance of great result than someone who just shows up and start at 20 years old.

We can have another thread about income (and other results that comes with it)

Agreed. As time goes on, it is harder to close the gap due to age.

Yes, and most athletes understand this too late. Some may realize the wastes hours they did by just "fooling around" in training. Or some can say the same in school (normal academics)

I have a few different views on this topic.
Compare training for gold vs training for TT. Both require good strokes but...
Once one gets the mechanics down, how much is spent on strategy. How to play a hole vs how to play an opponent. I know that days when I am more tired, I don't play as "smart" and that makes a big difference.

If you compete with your own level, you can out smart your opponent by have a lesser technique.
But if you played someone with that gap advantage, sadly, your smartness is only worth so much and 11-1 or 11-5 is only a matter of mercy or not.

What about the coaching? Is endless multi-ball that efficient? I was at a sport center in Pudong, Shanghai, China years back and we had to wait for while 3 coaches were "training" students. Two coaches were making their students do a lot of multi-ball but weren't paying attention to what the students were doing wrong. Yes, you can return the ball with bad strokes but they are still bad strokes. In my view the coaches were just going through the motions. In my case the coach didn't correct my stroke or recognize my stroke was not optimal. I needed to made a video of myself to learn. I hate multi-ball. I can do that with a robot.

What about something as basic as returning chopped balls? Yes, you can practice until you get it right but could you get it right faster if you knew what right was to begin with?

For instance. People learn by trial and error. There are no consequences for all the errors along the way so it is acceptable. This is not true for designing air craft or space craft where learning by trial and error is not acceptable. So how can the learning by trial and error be reduced in TT? Maybe with better training techniques it will be easier learn at a faster rate.

In China, you need connections. Else you are just a number, and China is not short of numbers.

It is difficult for westerns to understand. Most things in Asia, is not about money.
Money won't make the cut, since there are others with more money.

You do talk a bit of what I will cover in Quality.
This thread is based on quantity.
You need both.

Let me leave you with one thing I was taught in my "training" days.
Deng Ya Ping. On her own, she will serve thousands of serves every day. Few years later, she made it into the Chinese national team (the hard way). I can talk more about this some other time.

I tried to copy her method. My container fits 150 balls. I average about 1000 serves per hour.
Its not easy to do 1 hour of serves every day. Yet alone for PHD Deng, she did many hours (mostly after hours-evening), for years.

I did 1 hour per day, maybe for 2 or 3 years only.
So.... I am no one today.

 

[Brs]

Tony, what do you think about talent as a factor?

If two players have the exact same Q&Q of training, they will not have the exact same match-play level at the end. One will be stronger maybe only a little but enough to win.

Is that because of talent (whether physical or mental, whatever)? If not talent, why is it?

 

[Brs]

to answer OP, 10 years is a lot if your opponent only has two, or five. Not much if your opponent has 20.

 

[brokenball]

I thought that maybe I should have put a wink emoji by my comment about slow learner. However, after thinking about it, in my line of work 10 years to too long. Have startups don't make it past 5 years. Engineering projects need to be faster unless there are lots of funds behind it. Even 5 years is too long. Relying on quantity alone will not work. I know it doesn't work in what I do, it helps, but in my business my slow learner comment applies.
In TT terms, people will have move past their prime.

You want to make this thread only about quantity, fine. However, I look at all those things you mentioned above and rate them from 0 to 1 so there are several items graded 0 to 1. I would add quality and efficiency in there too. Now multiply all the ratings from 0 to 1 together. A perfect score is 1. However, reality one is lucky to get above 0.1. Most of us will be much less than 0.1. In other words, fail. One in 330M, the approximate US population, may come close to 1. This is why most do not succeed.

We don't have feeder events that I know of in the US. Maybe someone else does know. I think US players must go over seas. The closest I can think of is the try outs for the Olympics. I have met two ex Olympians here. I don't think they had other feeder events and I doubt they made much money from TT alone, at least not from playing.

I could draw an analogy using AI and how it is taught. Pattern/impage recognition must be taught to tell a dog from a cat and that takes a while. It is called classification. Telling difference between a good project and bad or even whether an x-ray show cancer or not is classification. The quality of the pictures used to train the AI and the grading itself will make a significant difference. Obviously quantity is still necessary. I don't see training as just a single item but more like a chain with no weak links.

 

[DukeGaGa]

Some studies have shown sleep helps learning, so it's not just about training hours.

 

[OldUser]

I know a thing or 2 about brain plasticity, sleep, quantity and quality of training... being a jazz musician and also have been a music teacher for a while.

10 years with 30 to 40 hours a week is a total nonsense in sport, I also agree with brokenball about the kids having a quicker learning curve. I know for example the Lebrun bros. do not train 30 hours a week, neither Flavien Coton in the Wattignies pole espoir, it's more likely in the 20 hours zone, league and tourneys excluded of course. Also bear in mind that you NEVER play 5 to 6 hours on week-ends for league matches: it's roughly 2 to 3 hours of EFFECTIVE play. In Pro A and Pro B for instance sometimes you play only 1 match and that's all, maximum being 2, so it's roughly 1h30.

They are expert in their field for sure, but it's certainly not since 10 years: they went to the "baby ping" at 3, that's how really young kids start, it's roughly 30 minutes a week for a year, competing starts only at 8 years old.

I have been praticing A LOT for jazz, it's a never ending process, and the to-do-list is damn looooong, finding gigs for your projects, networking, promoting, so I came to that conclusion:
- quantity of training matters for the fundamentals, but let's face it: it never lasts 10 years
- practice makes perfect... not always! : PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT, 15 minutes of EFFECTIVE training/practice EVERYDAY goes a longer way than 2 hours twice a week, that's what I've always been advocating to my students, because it helps the brain.

Of course 2 hours each day, 4 hours, ok let's face it : 6 hours ! is probably better... really ? for sports it's a nonsense, it leads to injury and worse to overtraining and even burnout. It's a typical thing in classical music: there are countless of youngsters getting crazy with the amount of work to do to get to that perfection.

And guess what ? it's the same in China, some young people suffer from overtraining and burnout, sure they've got the pro level at some point, but they don't have nice memories of their training. Li Samson, the France's women's team head coach, deeply wanted to be a ballet dancer in her youth. But TT was the big thing already in China and she was the only child of her family, so she didn't have her word about it, she couldn't choose, and that's the case for countless of chinese boys and girls there. She has said many times she didn't like training for TT in China, she got better with it when coming in France as an adult.

About making money as a pro in Europe, well only the top pros make a living with it, and as it's possible for them to play in 2 or 3 different leagues (Moregard plays in Bundesliga and Swedish league the same season for example). But it does not pay that much compared to football (the real one), rugby, tennis, or Handball in PSG, Kiel or Barcelona. That's why the sponsors also offer money to the coach, physios and so on in contracts now, that's the case for Tibhar with the Lebrun bros. Ibrahima Diaw already said his mind about having diffuclt times to pay for WTT tourneys, he was in Pro B last years, and now in Pro A for Stella La Romagne TT club. Typical example.

https://laval-maville-com.translate...l=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=wapp

 

[dingyibvs]

I watched an interview with FZD recently detailing his daily schedule. He trains for like 4.5 hours daily. I think it was something like 9 - 11:30AM, then 2 - 4PM.

 

[Brs]

I watched an interview with FZD recently detailing his daily schedule. He trains for like 4.5 hours daily. I think it was something like 9 - 11:30AM, then 2 - 4PM.

I wonder if that includes physical training, video, and serve practice?

If 4.5 hrs/day is all-in, sounds like a pretty soft job. No wonder thousands of people compete to be on the CNT. LOL

 

[dingyibvs]

I wonder if that includes physical training, video, and serve practice?

If 4.5 hrs/day is all-in, sounds like a pretty soft job. No wonder thousands of people compete to be on the CNT. LOL

Just physical training. I think he has team breakfast at like 7. He says he goes back to his room to take a nap afterwards lol.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Tony, what do you think about talent as a factor?

If two players have the exact same Q&Q of training, they will not have the exact same match-play level at the end. One will be stronger maybe only a little but enough to win.

Is that because of talent (whether physical or mental, whatever)? If not talent, why is it?

Talent of course is a factor
1 hour vs 10 hour is also a factor

Genius as I replied to BB is your talent factor. But how much genius is out there?
Even if there is talent, it needs to be nurtured.

Or you have talent, and then you put them in 1/4 of the rest?

Kobe Bryant is talent. But I recall he also puts in a lot more.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I know a thing or 2 about brain plasticity, sleep, quantity and quality of training... being a jazz musician and also have been a music teacher for a while.

10 years with 30 to 40 hours a week is a total nonsense in sport, I also agree with brokenball about the kids having a quicker learning curve. I know for example the Lebrun bros. do not train 30 hours a week, neither Flavien Coton in the Wattignies pole espoir, it's more likely in the 20 hours zone, league and tourneys excluded of course. Also bear in mind that you NEVER play 5 to 6 hours on week-ends for league matches: it's roughly 2 to 3 hours of EFFECTIVE play. In Pro A and Pro B for instance sometimes you play only 1 match and that's all, maximum being 2, so it's roughly 1h30.

They are expert in their field for sure, but it's certainly not since 10 years: they went to the "baby ping" at 3, that's how really young kids start, it's roughly 30 minutes a week for a year, competing starts only at 8 years old.

I have been praticing A LOT for jazz, it's a never ending process, and the to-do-list is damn looooong, finding gigs for your projects, networking, promoting, so I came to that conclusion:
- quantity of training matters for the fundamentals, but let's face it: it never lasts 10 years
- practice makes perfect... not always! : PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT, 15 minutes of EFFECTIVE training/practice EVERYDAY goes a longer way than 2 hours twice a week, that's what I've always been advocating to my students, because it helps the brain.

Of course 2 hours each day, 4 hours, ok let's face it : 6 hours ! is probably better... really ? for sports it's a nonsense, it leads to injury and worse to overtraining and even burnout. It's a typical thing in classical music: there are countless of youngsters getting crazy with the amount of work to do to get to that perfection.

And guess what ? it's the same in China, some young people suffer from overtraining and burnout, sure they've got the pro level at some point, but they don't have nice memories of their training. Li Samson, the France's women's team head coach, deeply wanted to be a ballet dancer in her youth. But TT was the big thing already in China and she was the only child of her family, so she didn't have her word about it, she couldn't choose, and that's the case for countless of chinese boys and girls there. She has said many times she didn't like training for TT in China, she got better with it when coming in France as an adult.

About making money as a pro in Europe, well only the top pros make a living with it, and as it's possible for them to play in 2 or 3 different leagues (Moregard plays in Bundesliga and Swedish league the same season for example). But it does not pay that much compared to football (the real one), rugby, tennis, or Handball in PSG, Kiel or Barcelona. That's why the sponsors also offer money to the coach, physios and so on in contracts now, that's the case for Tibhar with the Lebrun bros. Ibrahima Diaw already said his mind about having diffuclt times to pay for WTT tourneys, he was in Pro B last years, and now in Pro A for Stella La Romagne TT club. Typical example.

https://laval-maville-com.translate...l=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Its all relative to comparison on the field of amateur journey and pro journey.

Lets take Jazz, you do how many hours a day? 4 hours a day?
Lets take someone else and do 4 times less, 1 hour a day.
And without natural born genius talent, this person is wondering why the gap is getting bigger than yours year on year?
10 is also relative (say 7 years old to 16 years old is 10 years). We can use 5 or we can use 15.
I thought my use of numbers was basic understanding and the theory behind it applies to almost everything in live.

Unless you have someone who has 1 week, is worth more someone who has 10 years

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I watched an interview with FZD recently detailing his daily schedule. He trains for like 4.5 hours daily. I think it was something like 9 - 11:30AM, then 2 - 4PM.

I can assure you, he trains more than that
But even if he trains 4.5 hours and become where he is.
Take your national champion, or national champion from 30 different countries (some tier 1, some tier 2, some tier3), you will notice a gap pattern.

We can change sports, you will see the pattern.
Some countries, I know they train 1 to 2 times a week and they even have "off season too"

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Just physical training. I think he has team breakfast at like 7. He says he goes back to his room to take a nap afterwards lol.

I'm sure you mean on the table training.
Physical training is around 15% of the total hours.
Will never be 100%.

Somewhere on this forum, 10 years ago, I posted CNT B teams training schedule (photo taken from the schedule on the wall)


correction, I recall it was a camp during the new ball change. where physical training increased.
so this would be around 2015 or so (CNT B team had the ball to use a year before others)

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Some studies have shown sleep helps learning, so it's not just about training hours.

And so many of them sleep in between the 2 sessions.
I also see them sleep between matches.
It works for sure!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

We don't have feeder events that I know of in the US. Maybe someone else does know. I think US players must go over seas. The closest I can think of is the try outs for the Olympics. I have met two ex Olympians here. I don't think they had other feeder events and I doubt they made much money from TT alone, at least not from playing.

US had 3 feeders last year.
Fermont 5-8 May
Westchester 11-15 May
Fort Lauderdale 11-14 Dec

USA quality training has improved over the decade. But USA focus way too much on 1 on 1 training and not enough on team training in my opnion.
Some excel from it (but you are right, the base is too little, if USA has 10 folds the playing population, the result could be better)

Having say that, a couple of US juniors do travel overseas for quantity + quality training.
The school I show up at quite often, has been hosting US junior top players for some time now.

The same coach I spoke about in the OP, assisted in the development of a US Olympian too.
He was offered to move to the USA to continue coaching this olympian.
What was the training hours? 4 to 6pm, 6 day a week?
Where to stay? live with the player
What to do for the other 22 hours in a day. Anything you want.

Obviously, he didn't go. It would have been too boring.

In South Africa, 10 years ago.
Kong Linghui best friend/former team mate, took charge as the national coach.
4 days training a week, 3 hours a shot. 12 hours a week (5th day is physicals)
He was bored to death. He spent more time in a week, watching the national soccer U19 train, than he watch his TT senior team.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

to answer OP, 10 years is a lot if your opponent only has two, or five. Not much if your opponent has 20.

True
OP is helping to find answers.
The question at the end - the parents of the player tend to think, the kids are good enough.
It is the lack of funding, it is the lack of this, it is the lack of that.

But they always forget, maybe your kid has a lack of Q&Q.

I even once saw a parent say, its a lack of mental training.....
Should get a professional in, train them better mentally. So they don't freeze when playing top countries.

I wanted to say, they didn't freeze. They just can't do the same quality shots....
It is like thinking USATT 1600 plus a mental doctor can help beat a 2600.
The gap is way too big, and there is normally a Q&Q behind it as a big factor

 

[Dominikk85]

Years really don't mean much I think, if anything it should be hours, because 2 years at 1 hour a week is obviously worse than 6 months with 10 hours a week (case one is 104 hours overall and case two is 260 hours overall).

Also the intensity of training matters, some basically only do Warmup and match play while others will do an organized training with focus on technique, ball bucket and so on.

I mean if your BH is weak and you spend an hour just working on backhand with a qualified coach it will improve more than if you just warm up and then play a match with a friend.