This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Moral Question Here…
- Thread starter joshmak10
- Start date
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Well-Known Member
Rebrand J-Slick'd moniker to include Monterey Meanie
Der_Echte is pretty much the same thinking... if they put on a uniform and showed up, then that indicates they are an opposing warrior able and willing to fight vs you.
No need to demean anyone while we do it, just win points, games, and matches.
My last tourney there was a real young kid... prolly 8 or 9 who could rally at the table without spin decently (which just about every pro trained kid does well) and this kid would SHOUT his Cho every damn point he won regardless of how the point was won... often 2-4 cho each point and it was piercing in pitch... ig you were in the hall it was difficult to compete when this kid was playing.
Is THAT morally right? In the final of his event, he just couldn't perform mentally was well as his 40 yr old opponent and lost a heartbreaking 5th set after leading by 4 points at turn around. Kid proceeded to cry and wail and shout for a full 10 minutes courtside after that loss.
Was it morally right for the 40 year old to make that kid cry?
(haha, the kid made himself cry)
The question or issue J-Slick is addressing is that should one feel sorry for opponent and compete less as a result. I agree with J-Slick on this one and say absolutely NO. The opponent's age or mental stability is not any basis for playing less competitively.
We can debate whether it is OK or not to cho if you win a point vs a kid that age...
... but to me, once that kid obsessively Cho's and Cho's... then it is fair game to do so if I choose... and I would do it quietly the whole match winning points and maybe let one out near the end.
I think I've seen (and heard that kid) at a tournament at 888 a year ago. Hard to forget lol
I also had a kid cry on me the first ever tournament I entered. I was in the finals of a U300 event and I was so flummoxed that I went over to his mom to ask what I should do. She was a good parent and told me to just play as normal and that the kid needed to learn how to deal with emotions. That was good parenting.
I got to be the vehicle for some kid's emotional growth and bagged myself a trophy and funny story that day. Made me glad I switched sports from kickboxing to TT. Nothing like that ever happened in muay thai lol
This user has no status.
Active Member
Exactly. It's more disrespectful to your opponent to play "easy" on them. For one, if they do beat you while you aren't using the best tactic available, it means there win is not worth as much, so you're actually taking something away from your opponent.
If you play your best against your opponent, you respect them and their game. If you destroy them, you teach them something in the long run
This user has no status.
Active Member
haha that is awesome. One of my club mates up here in the Sacramento area is going to his first tournament in the bay area soon. I told him to be weary of the kids. they might be rated 600 but they very well could have the skill and play like that are 1500+. I told him to give no mercy to anyone across the table. I also told him that he can consider it a successful tournament if he makes just one kid cry. LOL.
says
Pimples Schmimples
says
Pimples Schmimples
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Well-Known Member
I don't think tournament rules apply to 5 yr olds who can barely see over the table 😂
says
2023 Certified Organ Donor
says
2023 Certified Organ Donor
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Well-Known Member
Haha Tony... there was a young Indian youth, a new player (maybe trained 3-4 months) in LDM7's group last tourney... this kid did not have topspin fundamentals yet... and he lost easily to LDM7... but this kid CRAVED to develop a playstyle like Adam B's snake shots.
I told his father the kid outta learn fundamentals first, but when not training, heavily GOOF OFF trying these shots... why? Because they build TOUCH... and FEEL for the ball and that helps in all situations.
says
2023 Certified Organ Donor
says
2023 Certified Organ Donor
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Well-Known Member
Would the forum and the Sac metro area revolt if I issue @Jslick89 the nickname of Mad Dog Monterey Meanie ???
This user has no status.
Member
You did nothing wrong in my view, since you were losing. If you were winning and making fun of the kid then that's different. It's also good to feel a little bad for the 5yo.
This user has no status.
Active Member
i had a similar situation but kind of reversed. I played against a pips grandpa (who obviously does only faulty serves). That guy actually has pips out on both sides and the rubber is at least 20 years old and has already receded from the place where his thumb is. I remember i found it so odd to play against him a year ago or so and i lost back then, because i simply could not adjust to the odd empty balls that i would receive from him.
i helped out the hobby team yesterday and had to play him again. He won against another dude of our team and i was sceptical, but during the warm up i noticed that i was having a quite good time receiving and playing his balls instinctively.
So i was not really annoyed by him not tossing the ball up, because people dont get an advantage by doing it. at least not in terms of spin, because the less toss, the harder it is to impart spin (which was pointless for him having pips out anyways).
In general i kind of dislike pips out players a little, simply because it is an easy way to win against low level players and more often than not i got the feeling that they dont know what the rubber does themselves and that they would struggle against other pips out players.
What makes this last match similar to the OP's situation is that my negativity towards this player made me use serves that he could not properly return.
He is right handed and i am right handed and i did a pendulum sidespin serve that would go out of the table to the side. I mostly achive to have the ball jump out of the table on the half of the table that is closer to the net. He did not return many balls at all and even hit his elbow on the table corner a few times trying to reach it. He forfeited in the 3rd set (had won both sets before) claiming he hurt his arm while trying to receive the serves.
morally i probably would not have played these serves against a nice grandpa, but against this dude i felt justified to use this serve.
i helped out the hobby team yesterday and had to play him again. He won against another dude of our team and i was sceptical, but during the warm up i noticed that i was having a quite good time receiving and playing his balls instinctively.
So i was not really annoyed by him not tossing the ball up, because people dont get an advantage by doing it. at least not in terms of spin, because the less toss, the harder it is to impart spin (which was pointless for him having pips out anyways).
In general i kind of dislike pips out players a little, simply because it is an easy way to win against low level players and more often than not i got the feeling that they dont know what the rubber does themselves and that they would struggle against other pips out players.
What makes this last match similar to the OP's situation is that my negativity towards this player made me use serves that he could not properly return.
He is right handed and i am right handed and i did a pendulum sidespin serve that would go out of the table to the side. I mostly achive to have the ball jump out of the table on the half of the table that is closer to the net. He did not return many balls at all and even hit his elbow on the table corner a few times trying to reach it. He forfeited in the 3rd set (had won both sets before) claiming he hurt his arm while trying to receive the serves.
morally i probably would not have played these serves against a nice grandpa, but against this dude i felt justified to use this serve.
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Well-Known Member
I don’t see the similarity, with a grown player you should exploit all weaknesses you find.
Cheers
L-zr
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
No, but it is a really hard game mentally because of the nature of these small margins and the way you lose so many points in a row if your focus is slightly off or your body is a bit tense from the pressure of having to play vs. adults. I have played vs. many around 10 years of age and they usually break down when I pick on their weakness and start crying when they lose the game. They are not fully grown and I can just move them around the table ... even ghost serve works vs them since they cant reach over the table.
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
My take -- for what it's worth:
There's three factors in play here with to the OP's dilemma -- they break down to in-game factors, after-game factors, and peace of mind factors
In-game, in a tournament, you are there to win. Your opponent knows this, and is there for the same reason. Playing to win your match is the whole aim for both of you, and so long as your play is legal, then anything goes. Yes, psychological factors matter, and taking advantage of your opponents mental weaknesses, as well as their physical limitations, can all be part of the game. So if it's legal, and fair, then you should go for it... such is the logic of competition.
After-game however, you stop being a competitor in the midst of a competitive battle, and start being a human being. And being a decent human being is far more important than being a fierce competitor.
I have a couple of rules I follow in regards to TT. The first rule is "What happens at the table, stays at the table" -- this rule applies to my opponent's conduct though, not my own. I have this rule to remind myself that's it's all just a game, and I shouldn't carry any grudges about other people's tactics I may have elsewhere into my own life. Leave any resentment you may have about a match at the table. Do this literally. Literally imagine yourself walking away from it in your mind as you're waking back to your chair and kit bag. it really helps me feel better about the times I lose in unpleasant circumstances I didn't like.
The second TT rule I have is just for myself, which is "Never do anything at the table in the name of winning that I might be ashamed of afterwards". TT is a game for most of us, and a profession for a few of us. That means most of us look to it for fun, and the rest look to it for income, including myself -- neither of those motivations however excuse us being manipulative arseholes, or treating another human being with contempt. Yet in the heat of a match, sometimes it can be really easy to forget that. It's really easy for competition to bring out the arsehole in all of us. Winning is a great feeling for me personally, but winning at the cost of someone else's peace of mind, happiness or self-esteem is not a winning feeling whatsoever. If I haven't played honorably, then I just don't feel great about it afterwards; those bad feelings also last a hell of a lot longer for me than the buzz of winning does -- I learnt that one as a very young man, and it's something I carry with me always. To paraphrase Ender's Game: Yes winning matters, but HOW we win also has to matter.
This brings me to the third factor, which is peace of mind.
You won your match against the 5-year old, you used legal, ethical and legitimate tactics to do it... And you utterly kicked their arse. You killed it -- so well done, enjoy your win.
...but you CAN'T really enjoy the win can you? You're here asking us about it, so I'm guessing you're looking to justify your actions in the aftermath, or else lay any lingering feelings of discomfort to rest.
My advice is, don't lay them to rest. Not yet anyway.
If you're still bothered by the way you played, or about the outcome, then congratulations -- this means you have a conscience, and are therefore a decent human being. That simple fact is worth a thousand times more celebration frankly than you thrashing a 5-year old in public. (It's tragic how rare having conscience is becoming in this world, but oh well....)
To reconcile any feelings of discomfort you may still have, I recommend you commit yourself in future, to doing what I do in such situations (something I actually encounter every single week at my local club). You should aim to win, but aim to do so honourably. You do that by pulling your game in a little bit, and by giving the child a sporting chance.
If the child is genuinely better than you at aged five, then they will whip your arse anyway. Take the loss and resolve to get better yourself.
If you are the better player, and the child has an obvious weakness such as the short serve, then try doing what I do, and use the short serve to win points when necessary, and to ensure you win the match... but also mix your game up and do other serves too. Not just to give the kid a chance to win a few points, but for other reasons too.
Throw in some long fast serves as well. It can expose other potential weaknesses in their game, which is good practice for tighter games for you, and good feedback for them, as their coach will take note of it, and have them work on it. More likely though a low fast serve will be smashed back at you, as driving fast balls is what those young kids typically practice the most. In which case, the kid won a point -- that helps them feel better, and gives you a window into their own skillset -- which is also good practice for more competitive games. Straight away though, you now know how to win a point, and how to lose them... So control of the match is now entirely in your hands, and you have the option to artificially make the game closer than it would otherwise be.
This is what I do with the very young players I encounter in comp matches-- I either lose fair and square, or I JUST win the match by pulling my punches, so the margin is closer than it should have otherwise been. I'm also not afraid to offer the young kids a little advice during a game, or to praise them when they play a good shot, or make a good tactical decision.
I do all the above to live with myself afterwards, but also to ensure that my young, underage, emotionally vulnerable and obviously inexperienced opponent doesn't feel crushed at the end of the game, but (hopefully) instead feels encouraged. I tend to find the very young kids feel okay with *just* losing to an experienced adult -- especially if it's in a "tight" five-setter.
Every time I do this, typically the kid walks away encouraged to try harder next time, and commit themselves more to practice, so that they can kick my arse next time... And I meanwhile, get to advance in the competition to the next round, and walk away from the table knowing I won without destroying somebody's self confidence at the same time. And that makes ME feel good.
Sure I'm playing with fire by doing this. Occasionally the kid improves during the match and ends up winning because I threw a game or two. But I can live with that, because I'm still being beaten by my opponent on the night, and I'm still behaving in a manner consistent with my own ethics and guiding principles.
The *real* proof of the benefits of this approach however is that every time I win this way, the kid's parents and coaches typically thank me warmly for it after the game. They don't want to see their kid getting slaughtered, anymore than I want to do the butchering. They appreciate I treated their kid gently, and let them down gently, without destroying their motivation, or robbing them even a little, of their love of the game.
There are people out there who believe that winning is all that matters, and -- judging from some of the comments in this thread -- such people genuinely don't give a steaming shit about other people, or about a child's feelings, or about anything else than themselves once they have a blade in their hands. They are apparently of the mindset that "once the blade is in, twist it". I encourage you NOT to join them.
I have no idea whatsoever what internal psychological forces help somebody justify to themselves destroying a child's self confidence or feelings of self-worth, or else rationalise or otherwise ignore the damage their actions can do to others. Maybe that's all they know and understand...
I however don't want to normalise or rationalise connotational or situational contempt towards children, and I certainly don't wish to remain silent in the face of anybody who does. I personally don't want to behave that way towards anybody EVER frankly.... not even in jest.
Either everyone deserves respect *all the time*, or nobody does. I recommend you be wary of anybody who argues otherwise. They're trying to justify the idea of treating people with selective contempt, just so long as it never happens to them.
I sell blades for a living, so yes, in a way my approach is also self serving, as it helps ingratiate me with potential customers to some small degree... But I can live with that. TT isn't a huge sport here in Australia, so anything I can do to help keep kids playing the game is healthy for the sport in my book. We need more gifted and motivated 5-year olds playing this sport we all love so much, not less. Treat them with respect and kid gloves, and they'll stick around. Thrash them every time you meet them however, and they probably won't.
Hope this all helps you. Good luck with your future games, thank you for having the guts to ask an ethical question on a public forum, and God bless you for having a conscience, and being willing to guide it with outside advice, and protect it from outside advice. All the best for your playing career! 🙂🙂
There's three factors in play here with to the OP's dilemma -- they break down to in-game factors, after-game factors, and peace of mind factors
In-game, in a tournament, you are there to win. Your opponent knows this, and is there for the same reason. Playing to win your match is the whole aim for both of you, and so long as your play is legal, then anything goes. Yes, psychological factors matter, and taking advantage of your opponents mental weaknesses, as well as their physical limitations, can all be part of the game. So if it's legal, and fair, then you should go for it... such is the logic of competition.
After-game however, you stop being a competitor in the midst of a competitive battle, and start being a human being. And being a decent human being is far more important than being a fierce competitor.
I have a couple of rules I follow in regards to TT. The first rule is "What happens at the table, stays at the table" -- this rule applies to my opponent's conduct though, not my own. I have this rule to remind myself that's it's all just a game, and I shouldn't carry any grudges about other people's tactics I may have elsewhere into my own life. Leave any resentment you may have about a match at the table. Do this literally. Literally imagine yourself walking away from it in your mind as you're waking back to your chair and kit bag. it really helps me feel better about the times I lose in unpleasant circumstances I didn't like.
The second TT rule I have is just for myself, which is "Never do anything at the table in the name of winning that I might be ashamed of afterwards". TT is a game for most of us, and a profession for a few of us. That means most of us look to it for fun, and the rest look to it for income, including myself -- neither of those motivations however excuse us being manipulative arseholes, or treating another human being with contempt. Yet in the heat of a match, sometimes it can be really easy to forget that. It's really easy for competition to bring out the arsehole in all of us. Winning is a great feeling for me personally, but winning at the cost of someone else's peace of mind, happiness or self-esteem is not a winning feeling whatsoever. If I haven't played honorably, then I just don't feel great about it afterwards; those bad feelings also last a hell of a lot longer for me than the buzz of winning does -- I learnt that one as a very young man, and it's something I carry with me always. To paraphrase Ender's Game: Yes winning matters, but HOW we win also has to matter.
This brings me to the third factor, which is peace of mind.
You won your match against the 5-year old, you used legal, ethical and legitimate tactics to do it... And you utterly kicked their arse. You killed it -- so well done, enjoy your win.
...but you CAN'T really enjoy the win can you? You're here asking us about it, so I'm guessing you're looking to justify your actions in the aftermath, or else lay any lingering feelings of discomfort to rest.
My advice is, don't lay them to rest. Not yet anyway.
If you're still bothered by the way you played, or about the outcome, then congratulations -- this means you have a conscience, and are therefore a decent human being. That simple fact is worth a thousand times more celebration frankly than you thrashing a 5-year old in public. (It's tragic how rare having conscience is becoming in this world, but oh well....)
To reconcile any feelings of discomfort you may still have, I recommend you commit yourself in future, to doing what I do in such situations (something I actually encounter every single week at my local club). You should aim to win, but aim to do so honourably. You do that by pulling your game in a little bit, and by giving the child a sporting chance.
If the child is genuinely better than you at aged five, then they will whip your arse anyway. Take the loss and resolve to get better yourself.
If you are the better player, and the child has an obvious weakness such as the short serve, then try doing what I do, and use the short serve to win points when necessary, and to ensure you win the match... but also mix your game up and do other serves too. Not just to give the kid a chance to win a few points, but for other reasons too.
Throw in some long fast serves as well. It can expose other potential weaknesses in their game, which is good practice for tighter games for you, and good feedback for them, as their coach will take note of it, and have them work on it. More likely though a low fast serve will be smashed back at you, as driving fast balls is what those young kids typically practice the most. In which case, the kid won a point -- that helps them feel better, and gives you a window into their own skillset -- which is also good practice for more competitive games. Straight away though, you now know how to win a point, and how to lose them... So control of the match is now entirely in your hands, and you have the option to artificially make the game closer than it would otherwise be.
This is what I do with the very young players I encounter in comp matches-- I either lose fair and square, or I JUST win the match by pulling my punches, so the margin is closer than it should have otherwise been. I'm also not afraid to offer the young kids a little advice during a game, or to praise them when they play a good shot, or make a good tactical decision.
I do all the above to live with myself afterwards, but also to ensure that my young, underage, emotionally vulnerable and obviously inexperienced opponent doesn't feel crushed at the end of the game, but (hopefully) instead feels encouraged. I tend to find the very young kids feel okay with *just* losing to an experienced adult -- especially if it's in a "tight" five-setter.
Every time I do this, typically the kid walks away encouraged to try harder next time, and commit themselves more to practice, so that they can kick my arse next time... And I meanwhile, get to advance in the competition to the next round, and walk away from the table knowing I won without destroying somebody's self confidence at the same time. And that makes ME feel good.
Sure I'm playing with fire by doing this. Occasionally the kid improves during the match and ends up winning because I threw a game or two. But I can live with that, because I'm still being beaten by my opponent on the night, and I'm still behaving in a manner consistent with my own ethics and guiding principles.
The *real* proof of the benefits of this approach however is that every time I win this way, the kid's parents and coaches typically thank me warmly for it after the game. They don't want to see their kid getting slaughtered, anymore than I want to do the butchering. They appreciate I treated their kid gently, and let them down gently, without destroying their motivation, or robbing them even a little, of their love of the game.
There are people out there who believe that winning is all that matters, and -- judging from some of the comments in this thread -- such people genuinely don't give a steaming shit about other people, or about a child's feelings, or about anything else than themselves once they have a blade in their hands. They are apparently of the mindset that "once the blade is in, twist it". I encourage you NOT to join them.
I have no idea whatsoever what internal psychological forces help somebody justify to themselves destroying a child's self confidence or feelings of self-worth, or else rationalise or otherwise ignore the damage their actions can do to others. Maybe that's all they know and understand...
I however don't want to normalise or rationalise connotational or situational contempt towards children, and I certainly don't wish to remain silent in the face of anybody who does. I personally don't want to behave that way towards anybody EVER frankly.... not even in jest.
Either everyone deserves respect *all the time*, or nobody does. I recommend you be wary of anybody who argues otherwise. They're trying to justify the idea of treating people with selective contempt, just so long as it never happens to them.
I sell blades for a living, so yes, in a way my approach is also self serving, as it helps ingratiate me with potential customers to some small degree... But I can live with that. TT isn't a huge sport here in Australia, so anything I can do to help keep kids playing the game is healthy for the sport in my book. We need more gifted and motivated 5-year olds playing this sport we all love so much, not less. Treat them with respect and kid gloves, and they'll stick around. Thrash them every time you meet them however, and they probably won't.
Hope this all helps you. Good luck with your future games, thank you for having the guts to ask an ethical question on a public forum, and God bless you for having a conscience, and being willing to guide it with outside advice, and protect it from outside advice. All the best for your playing career! 🙂🙂
Last edited:
Similar threads
