Musing on slow/mid-fast equipment[Stiga ARClassic, OSP V-), technique, development, etc [self-videos included]

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Hi all,

Just wanted to post some observations/thoughts/experiences and see what people think:

History
-Played since summer 2021, no sports before then
-Fh loop practice~year ago
-Best points in a game ~month ago
-Drill practice video, cross-step footwork, underspin to topsin/fh to bh transition today

-Started with Stiga Allround Classic, unboosted Hurricane 3 (and Neo), backhand Rakza Z
-Played 1 tournament last summer, got a rating of ~1200
-Bought myself a Osp Virtuoso Off- as a present
-Losing matches recently, saw many people at clubs keep getting fancy ALC/09c equipment
-Did a whole lot of googling, thought I needed to upgrade to 7 ply, etc
-On a whim decided to try Stiga Allround classic just for fun, LOVED IT!!!

Here are some of my musings on these 2 blades:

- Stiga
-Max feedback. Vibrates like hell, Sounds loud. During tournament, people were popping my no-spin serves and smashing was starting to cause some carpel tunnel like buzzing in my wrist.
-But I know exactly when i brushed vs used some sponged vs hit through sponge. I can get 50 FH loops in a row with the unboosted H3 Neo (yes, after a month it sorta dies and turns dull....more on boosting later).
- Stiga does feel slow especially in match play. Rallies go on forever. [Patrick/PongProfessors review is spot on: Feeling of cant miss a loop, maximum feedback, too thin for decent blocking, catapult in high impact shots can make it fast-ish {https://blog.tabletennis11.com/revi...c-control-allround-classic-samsonov-pure-wood}]

-OSP V-
- Almost 0 feedback. I have to pay attention to even feel anything. Analogy is like driving a Lexus and not feeling any road bumps or knowing your speed without tachometer reference.
- I tried to put same exact rubbers on Stiga/OSP. Relatively, OSP feels boring/dull. Even ALC blades I tried of other people at-least has that carbon pop sound as feedback.
- Significantly faster but requires a lot more precision. E.g. with FH loops, unlike Stiga, I cant correct blade angle last moment. In warmups my loops are like max 10 in a row
- Blade feels stiff, but also seems much softer/duller on impact than Stiga. [How is that possible? Stiga feels sharper/more responsive on impact, but also gives me ton of time to change blade angle at last moment]
- Blocking is heavenly solid. With Stiga, I always think I have 0 blocking skills.


So given:
- My consistency is significantly higher than with Osp V-
- I have a ton more fun with the feeling in Stiga [OSP calls it "controlled feedback" and I can see why. With Stiga, despite all the feedback, I cannot tell where the ball hit unless its way off the center. Same with OSP so some might prefer that.]
-Is there something wrong with me? As in, EVERYONE raves about OSP V- and "feeling", but I cannot seem to get a hang of it despite it being almost a year.
Speed of Osp V- with feel of Stiga would awesome. Is there a compromise? Seems like really the only option is something like Stiga Offensive Classic.

Also, after this experimentation, I absolutely (Trigger Warning!!!) cannot see why someone trying to be a two wing looper needs anything faster than an Off- 5 ply with a slow FH/BH rubber like H3Neo/Rakza Z until they reach a USATT 2000 level (if we define control as looping 50 FH loops with consistency in a row {pleasure to watch;
}). I actually find Rakza Z uncontrollable in FH compared to H3. No dwell time to correct last minute angle changes, serve receive pops up way more than H3. H-80 is somewhere between H3 Neo/Rakza Z but lower throw, more spin, more short game control, less speed and harder to fully activate on loops.

As for Boosting, only tried FTL. I also cannot understand needing more than 1 layer. 2 layers make dwell time very low and rubbers ease of spin does increase but max spin decreases. Feels like more control but actually is not strangely. Though boosted or not boosted H3 feels totally fine on Stiga but with V- the softness feeling of the blade and softening of sponge makes things super fast with weird mushy indirect feeling on all shots. Sometime I boost H3 Neo with one layer after glue layer to revive it, but more seems CRAZZZYYYYY!!!! Also advantage of hard H3 unboosted is even mediocre brush contact gives no spin so lots of serves that look like heavy underspin (which would be w/ other rubbers) can be a no spin serve, so its great for deception.

Thoughts?
 
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I think these are some interesting thoughts. Of course it is a common understanding that beginners should start of with slower non-carbon equipment, but I don't think that this is always the best way.

If you start with table tennis late and you go the conventional route by using slow equipment you will always lack the experience of those playing their slow beginner equipment for years already. You will simply not outplay them on their very own game.

Where I live the are people playing in the lower classes for decades without ever learning to loop. They have decades experience to push and to smash of you receive the ball too high.

If you play their game then you will definitely lose due to inconsistency in a push battle.

You can only overcome this hurdle by forcing the opponent to play a game that they are not used to it inexperienced in. In this case it is important for me to deliberately end a push battle by pushing long and lower, so the return can be looped.
Usually that already leads to a point because the opponent either does not get the ball, blocks it over or into the net.

I have seen other clubs members and low class players and they are the opposite. They only play long counters and avoid pushing as well. There you need a different method to bring them into an uncomfortable situation.

Having a private trainer to work on specific techniques might already be enough to edge out regular low class players that taught the game to themselves without instruction.
 
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I think these are some interesting thoughts. Of course it is a common understanding that beginners should start of with slower non-carbon equipment, but I don't think that this is always the best way.
Its best to develop a solid stroke with a wooden blade, be that 7 ply or 5 ply. once you're at that intermediate stage where you can hit loops and serve with good spin consistently then its time to upgrade to ALC/ZLC/carbon/inner carbon. It will improve your spin and probably your control and touch abit
 
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From my personal experience, switching to faster equipment once you are in complete control of your current setup is good for your progress. If you keep using slow setup, the rhythm of your game will generally be slower than those who use fast equipment. Slow setups are often more forgiving, and I found myself getting lazy with it. When I switch to faster equipment, it forces me to be more precise, and more in ready position in order to hit a good shot, which I believe is beneficial in the long term.
 
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From my personal experience, switching to faster equipment once you are in complete control of your current setup is good for your progress. If you keep using slow setup, the rhythm of your game will generally be slower than those who use fast equipment. Slow setups are often more forgiving, and I found myself getting lazy with it. When I switch to faster equipment, it forces me to be more precise, and more in ready position in order to hit a good shot, which I believe is beneficial in the long term.

That's an interesting take which is almost the opposite of what I usually hear which I'm summarizing below:

With carbon blades and bouncy rubbers it's much easier to hit a winner by just reaching while out of position due to the bigger sweet spot and easy speed/spin generation with just arm and wrist movement.

All wood and slow rubber makes it almost impossible to hit something of quality in those circumstances. You need proper position and weight transfer to get high quality winners. And that requires good footwork to get to proper position.

I guess with slower setup, you do have more recovery time since your ball gets to your opponent slower. But that only helps up to the moment your opponent sends it back to you (and serving up slow balls for your opponent to crush probably negates the benefit provided regardless).

It makes sense that faster setup requires more precision, but what specifically makes you think that faster setups require better positioning?
 
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That's an interesting take which is almost the opposite of what I usually hear which I'm summarizing below:

With carbon blades and bouncy rubbers it's much easier to hit a winner by just reaching while out of position due to the bigger sweet spot and easy speed/spin generation with just arm and wrist movement.

All wood and slow rubber makes it almost impossible to hit something of quality in those circumstances. You need proper position and weight transfer to get high quality winners. And that requires good footwork to get to proper position.

I guess with slower setup, you do have more recovery time since your ball gets to your opponent slower. But that only helps up to the moment your opponent sends it back to you (and serving up slow balls for your opponent to crush probably negates the benefit provided regardless).

It makes sense that faster setup requires more precision, but what specifically makes you think that faster setups require better positioning?
The general rhythm of the game is faster when I use fast equipment, so I need to be always on my toes. Could just be due to subconsious style change; I was more of a mid-table looper when I used my previous slower setup, and now I play closer to the table with my new faster setup. On another note, I feel my new bat has a smaller sweet spot than my previous bat...
 
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For me, all wooden blades didn’t have the feeling and control that i really like. And I have pretty good ones - acoustic and japan primorac. I have enough power and spin from my technique and body movement even with them, but control and ability to spin with something like Franziska/Apolonia or Harimoto blades are just much better.

The same thing with “better control” of Glayzer/G09c - it’s just not my cup of tea.
It’s really playable of a rubbers, but maybe for someone else, I better stick to dignics 🤓
 
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For me, all wooden blades didn’t have the feeling and control that i really like. And I have pretty good ones - acoustic and primorac. I have enough power and spin from my technique and body movement even with them, but control and ability to spin with something like Franziska/Apolonia or Harimoto blades are just much better.

The same thing with “better control” of Glayzer/G09c - it’s just not my cup of tea.
It’s really playable of a rubbers, but maybe for someone else, I better stick to dignics 🤓
Me neither really, until I stumbled across a 99g Mazunov - that’s a whole different level and changed my thinking about 5 ply/all wood completely. Feel, touch, speed and balance..
 
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Me neither really, until I stumbled across a 99g Mazunov - that’s a whole different level and changed my thinking about 5 ply/all wood completely. Feel, touch, speed and balance..
Mazunov is an outlier of 5 ply though, thicker and heavier than most. On paper it seems more like a 7 ply?
 
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Depends on what you're trying to achieve?

If you're having fun and staying active, use whatever you enjoy. Plenty of older players stuck around 1800-1900 USATT use extremely fast setups to compensate for reduced athleticism.

If you're newer to the sport and have a target goal of breaking USATT 2000 then I'd argue you'd still be fine with a faster setup as long as you have regular coaching. Without coaching, I'd agree with sticking to a slower setup. As an example, while I started lessons with a fairly slow, light blade, my coach slapped Tenergy 05 in max thickness on both sides, and within a year had me move to a Timo Boll ALC. Now, I've since oscillated and ended up at a setup that's a bit slower, but I doubt the equipment mattered all that much in the long run.
 
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Me neither really, until I stumbled across a 99g Mazunov - that’s a whole different level and changed my thinking about 5 ply/all wood completely. Feel, touch, speed and balance..
Didnt played with Mazunov, it out of production if i dont mistaken. And 99 gram of a racket - thats a badass like bat. I play with pretty heavy rubbers so it will be about 210+ definitely on a heavy side.
But imo, the more you played with a racket the better feeling and quality shots you will have. Not much of a difference carbon or pure wood
 
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Didnt played with Mazunov, it out of production if i dont mistaken. And 99 gram of a racket - thats a badass like bat. I play with pretty heavy rubbers so it will be about 210+ definitely on a heavy side.
But imo, the more you played with a racket the better feeling and quality shots you will have. Not much of a difference carbon or pure wood
Mine is 192g with T80FX/T64fx
 
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Mine is 192g with T80FX/T64fx
I know one guy, he was national level player as a kid, he is using Mazunov with two sides Dignics 09c now - he has crazy strong and powerful loops. Mazunov is one of the hardest and fastest wooden blades, it can be used on a pretty high level
 
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I know one guy, he was national level player as a kid, he is using Mazunov with two sides Dignics 09c now - he has crazy strong and powerful loops. Mazunov is one of the hardest and fastest wooden blades, it can be used on a pretty high level
That’s a beast of a bat..

mine is not that fast and certainly more control than my Viscaria
 
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Thanks for all the opinions here.

I agree it all depends on what you aim for. There are people who cannot warmup with any consistency on even FH drives and are around 2000USATT, and they have made their weird techniques work, mostly because they have played a long time and have greet feel. But it seems they are somehow stuck there.

At this point Ive stuck with Stiga ARC with unboosted hurricane 3 neo and Rakza Z backhand, and it really forces me to use my body. And if I use too much shoulder, well, I can tell after a while. I am surprised how subtle, atleast on video, the difference is between using body to lead the arms vs arms leading the body in strokes is.

When I do switch to OSP V-, I do feel like I have to more precise with my FH drives to be able to play 100 balls in a row, but I am not there. I can maybe do 25 in a row.

I have also gone back to purely focusing FH/BH drives and perfecting it using this video (
). I have found all the steps to be super important and love the focus on details that will eventually lead to efficient FH loops. I am currently on the relaxing upper body leads to open angle part of it during backswing, and Ive found that has really helped with being super consistent, but I still have to remind myself of that.

I guess I mostly wrote this post because I thought I was a advanced beginner or something and could use an OFF- blade, but found that I was stuck if I didnt go back to learning the basics all over. And I was surprised that, at my playing level, consistency is more important than anything else, and even an Off- all wood blade is too fast FOR ME!

And I tried this basic footwork exercise (
)and realized...well...I have no footwork cause I had no rhythm at all.

Lots to learn and they are all connected.

But yeah, not saying someone shud use super slow equipment and stick to it till 2000 USATT or anything but I guess if you want solid foundations, an ALL blade with a ALL rubber like H3Neo is more than fast enough. You might lose matches to ppl with fast equipment, but who cares if you win but arent getting better over time? [And before anyone starts a war, please post a video of you playing.]
 
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My equipment setup was blamed by one of my friends who studies equipment more than technique. He was insisting my setup is not correct/rubbers are not good enough when I was pretty sure that there are major flaws in my backhand loop. I don't know what can I say. I was using XIOM HAL with D09c.
I never blame my equipment. They are good enough, and if I make a mistake that's all my fault.

I think one way to tell whether you can upgrade your equipment is when you play with an ALC/ZLC blade and you have great confidence and consistency. At the same time, your partner feels the improvement. That is the time you can make one step further and seek an upgrade.
 
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-OSP V-
- Significantly faster but requires a lot more precision. E.g. with FH loops, unlike Stiga, I cant correct blade angle last moment.
1. I'd say your approach is overall spot on, keep using your Stiga until you won't need to correct last minute angle changes for 95% of your shoots.
I actually find Rakza Z uncontrollable in FH compared to H3. No dwell time to correct last minute angle changes, serve receive pops up way more than H3.
2. When you get your angles right, Rakza Z is actually supremely controllable and excellent with serve/receive and short game, so keep trying. Dwell time with RZ will depend on a blade, I found RZ to be quite picky in that respect. It's a good match with hinoki blades though and here it'll give you the dwell you need and the right balance between elasticity and control.
Speed of Osp V- with feel of Stiga would awesome. Is there a compromise? Seems like really the only option is something like Stiga Offensive Classic.
3. You may as well try a cheap Chinese Sanwei HC-5s, even if just for fun, it's an excellent blade with hinoki outer layer and the structure similar to Joola Rossi Emotion, with a softer carbon layer (so it's slower than JRE), and it has a great feel and synergy with 2 mm Rakza Z. It's not the best combo for flat hits/smashes, but as a looping tool and for the short game it's awesome for a developing player. And you can buy it for just under $30 on AliEx. All the players in my club who tried it said they couldn't believe it's $30.
 
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