Outer Carbon or Inner Carbon?

[dprsspins]

I've been playing Inner Carbon for a long time. I don't upgrade the blade, only the rubber. Specifically, I use the Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC and have loved it. I would say I sit squarely in the intermediate level; I know my strokes and can read spin, but have room to improve in terms of competitive strategy and footwork.

Recently an ITTF certified coach saw my match play and recommended me to try outer carbon (specifically FZD ALC) with a reasoning that my spin technique is good and it's time to make my returns more sharper. But my personal argument is that players and pros way better than me use inner fibre blades and even all woods.

Which would you personally pick over the other and why?

 

[mamedium]

welcome to the TTD expert service:
Where the suggestions are expertly given without seeing how you play

 

[Tyce]

It's not about better or worse, but what fits your game (and feeling).

For my game style, I should probably play all wood
For the best feeling, outer carbon

 

[dprsspins]

welcome to the TTD expert service:
Where the suggestions are expertly given without seeing how you play

The question I gave was what suits you best? If I needed an expert suggestion for me personally, I'd ask that ITTF coach 😂.

Just want to know how others feel about the differences between inner and outer carbon.

 

[Poi]

Disclaimer — I'm most probably on a lower level than you, so take my post with a grain of salt (I'm aware that I experiment with equipment that is above my level, but I don't care because I'm having fun doing it).


In short — Outer carbon (OC). Why? I find it a lot more predictable and consistent, which makes me confident.
I'd say it's mainly due to two reasons:

1. I feel that I'm more in control of the spin aspect of the game compared to the inner carbon (IC) or wood blades that I've tried. Yes, I think OC requires better technique to impart spin on the ball (just to be clear, I think the spin potential is just as high as with IC or wood, but I think OC demands more of you), which in that sense makes it "less forgiving." BUT on the flip side, I find it a lot less spin-sensitive than the IC or wood blades that I've tried. This aspect made my placement and topspin-on-backspin a lot more consistent...

2. I think it "tames" high-throw-angle rubbers significantly and makes them more linear (given a certain speed and brush angle). For example, when I slapped on Donic Bluegrip C2 on a wood blade, the throw angle became ridiculous (yes, that setup was an interesting experiement)... And when I tried Dignics 09C on a Viscaria, the throw angle wasn't even close to the wood + C2 setup.

I was in denial for quite a while that I like OC, but now I've given in.

 

[ripctt2]

Disclaimer — I'm most probably on a lower level than you, so take my post with a grain of salt (I'm aware that I experiment with equipment that is above my level, but I don't care because I'm having fun doing it).


In short — Outer carbon (OC). Why? I find it a lot more predictable and consistent, which makes me confident.
I'd say it's mainly due to two reasons:

1. I feel that I'm more in control of the spin aspect of the game compared to the inner carbon (IC) or wood blades that I've tried. Yes, I think OC requires better technique to impart spin on the ball (just to be clear, I think the spin potential is just as high as with IC or wood, but I think OC demands more of you), which in that sense makes it "less forgiving." BUT on the flip side, I find it a lot less spin-sensitive than the IC or wood blades that I've tried. This aspect made my placement and topspin-on-backspin a lot more consistent...

2. I think it "tames" high-throw-angle rubbers significantly and makes them more linear (given a certain speed and brush angle). For example, when I slapped on Donic Bluegrip C2 on a wood blade, the throw angle became ridiculous (yes, that setup was an interesting experiement)... And when I tried Dignics 09C on a Viscaria, the throw angle wasn't even close to the wood + C2 setup.

I was in denial for quite a while that I liked OC, but now I've given in.

I feel like inner carbon might be more controllable than outer carbon since it has an extra layer of wood before the carbon layer making it more flexy and giving it more dwell. idk from personal experience inner carbon is easier to control. having said that it does depend on the carbon used and the wood layers.

I've been playing Inner Carbon for a long time. I don't upgrade the blade, only the rubber. Specifically, I use the Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC and have loved it. I would say I sit squarely in the intermediate level; I know my strokes and can read spin, but have room to improve in terms of competitive strategy and footwork.

Recently an ITTF certified coach saw my match play and recommended me to try outer carbon (specifically FZD ALC) with a reasoning that my spin technique is good and it's time to make my returns more sharper. But my personal argument is that players and pros way better than me use inner fibre blades and even all woods.

Which would you personally pick over the other and why?

having never actually seen you play, from opinions from other ppl and from the internet, if you want more control or dwell on your blade, go inner-carbon since you get more wood so more dwell since carbon is stiffer. outer carbon you may need to adapt since its faster and gives more speed. honestly you should ask some ppl in your club to try an outer carbon blade. ultimately choose one that you like more than the other. if you dont like it, no point using it.

 

[Julzig]

Team inner✋
Why? I want enough feedback for short play while still having a crisp feel. Also I have plenty power on my own to reach the carbon. The slightly more dwell gives me a bit more safety, since I am tall and might be a bit out of position at times.
Do I need it? No. Is it fun hitting what feels like 100kph balls from time to time? Yes!

 

[ripctt2]

Team inner✋
Why? I want enough feedback for short play while still having a crisp feel. Also I have plenty power on my own to reach the carbon. The slightly more dwell gives me a bit more safety, since I am tall and might be a bit out of position at times.
Do I need it? No. Is it fun hitting what feels like 100kph balls from time to time? Yes!

yeah i agree. inner carbon may lose a bit of speed but i assume if you arent at the top level of pros like in wtt i assume the difference is negligible. inner carobn sitll gives you that speed and with extra spin and safety. many pros use inner carbon too as im sure you know.

 

[dprsspins]

Interesting perspectives.

The one on how outer carbons might be less spin sensitive is interesting. It's like how spinny rubbers are also spin sensitive, so blades also work like that. The more spinny inner carbon is more spin sensitive. While you can produce more spin with it, you'll have to becareful with incoming spin. While that makes receiving game hard, especially with Tenergy05 on forehand, it is a great adaptation tool and a good learning blade for me, as while I can read some spin, the very spinny serves that the old timers do without throwing the ball up at my club are still problematic to me at times.

There is good for me to stay on inner, but only if I plan to keep inner as my main blade archetype for life. I might gift myself a little Viscaria or FZD ALC in the future, who knows.

 

[ttarc]

I feel like inner carbon might be more controllable than outer carbon since it has an extra layer of wood before the carbon layer making it more flexy and giving it more dwell. idk from personal experience inner carbon is easier to control. having said that it does depend on the carbon used and the wood layers.

having never actually seen you play, from opinions from other ppl and from the internet, if you want more control or dwell on your blade, go inner-carbon since you get more wood so more dwell since carbon is stiffer. outer carbon you may need to adapt since its faster and gives more speed. honestly you should ask some ppl in your club to try an outer carbon blade. ultimately choose one that you like more than the other. if you dont like it, no point using it.

It also depends on the carbon used, the thickness and selection of the wood plies, how these are glued and so on.

If we look at the data from TTGearLab than an Ovtcharov InnerForce ALC at 88g is as fast as a Viscaria at 87.1g (base speed) but when hitting hard the Ovtcharov will hold the ball longer. DHS outer blades with A-fiber like the TG506A or Stigas Carbonado series have a similar characteristic (base speed like an outer but deep hold similar to inner carbon).
Something similar can be achieved with other fibers (e.g. glass fiber or basalt). Sergio from SDC blades has a good overview https://www.sdcttblades.com/materials/fibers

What definitely should be considered is that e.g. the ALC in an inner carbon blade needs a lot more input from the player to get "activated". An outer carbon blade is easier activated.
In short: it depends a lot on ones playing style what kind of blade is a good fit.

Performance Indices DB – Fiber Blades (Inner)

Note : All values are average values, and can be updated by further measurement. Quad/Triple FiberOuterInner3+2 plyCenter Fiber7-ply Wood5-ply Wood andro & Avalox / Inner NameAvg.Wt (g)EpEcEc/E…

ttgearlab.com

Performance Indices DB – Fiber Blades (Outer)

Note : All values are average values, and can be updated by further measurement. Quad/Triple FiberOuterInner3+2 plyCenter Fiber7-ply Wood5-ply Wood andro / Outer NameAvg.Wt (g)EpEcEc/EpVpVlVl/Vpand…

ttgearlab.com

 

[ttpb]

I've been training with inner carbon blades lately. But often switch to an outer blade during competitions. So here is how I see the differences.

Inner carbon:
• the main advantage for me is the speed it gives when you swing very hard from a bit away from the table. That's it.
More dwell time, less bouncy in short game? Yes, but these are not advantages for me personally, I use unboosted tacky rubbers with no catapult so nothing actually bounces off too much on any kind of blade
Why I train with these blades?
• Because it's harder to activate the carbon to get spin and speed. So I have to be very conscious about each stroke.
• There is also zero tolerance to passive game, no passive blocks or reaching out with your hand (with Chinese tacky rubbers) — the ball will only fall into the net. So I need to have proper positioning first.
• inner blades force me to step back from the table a bit, it's good for me since I may get stuck too close from time to time
• force me to play more pushes / cuts etc. when over the table which is very good for me since my short game is lacking (and flicking balls over the table seems somewhat more complicated with inner carbon blades for me, at least definitely slower if not enough power is applied)
• force me to play bigger strokes (I have a tendency of shortening my strokes unnecessarily)
• Chinese made inner blades don't quite excel at flat hits so I train my loops more efficiently (+ the dwell time for spin)
So these factors make inner blades good training blades for me.

Outer carbon:
• obviously faster on light / medium / shorter strokes
• easier to play more aggressively against "dead" balls
• somehow produce more spin more easily, easier to play spinnier slow loops (for me)
• way better for flat drives, blocks, blocks on the rise, passive blocks and punches — faster speed and rebound
• more error tolerant so easier to play with when tired
• I can play closer to the table (I've never used anything outer carbon that would be faster than Off+, though) and press my opponent
• and I love the hard balls that come the opponents' way from Viscaria type outer blades
Disadvantages? I do understand the potential issue with unneeded bounciness if rubbers with catapult are used. So proper active strokes in short game are probably needed.

 

[steve888]

I've been training with inner carbon blades lately. But often switch to an outer blade during competitions. So here is how I see the differences.

Inner carbon:
• the main advantage for me is the speed it gives when you swing very hard from a bit away from the table. That's it.
More dwell time, less bouncy in short game? Yes, but these are not advantages for me personally, I use unboosted tacky rubbers with no catapult so nothing actually bounces off too much on any kind of blade
Why I train with these blades?
• Because it's harder to activate the carbon to get spin and speed. So I have to be very conscious about each stroke.
• There is also zero tolerance to passive game, no passive blocks or reaching out with your hand (with Chinese tacky rubbers) — the ball will only fall into the net. So I need to have proper positioning first.
• inner blades force me to step back from the table a bit, it's good for me since I may get stuck too close from time to time
• force me to play more pushes / cuts etc. when over the table which is very good for me since my short game is lacking (and flicking balls over the table seems somewhat more complicated with inner carbon blades for me, at least definitely slower if not enough power is applied)
• force me to play bigger strokes (I have a tendency of shortening my strokes unnecessarily)
• Chinese made inner blades don't quite excel at flat hits so I train my loops more efficiently (+ the dwell time for spin)
So these factors make inner blades good training blades for me.

Outer carbon:
• obviously faster on light / medium / shorter strokes
• easier to play more aggressively against "dead" balls
• somehow produce more spin more easily, easier to play spinnier slow loops (for me)
• way better for flat drives, blocks, blocks on the rise, passive blocks and punches — faster speed and rebound
• more error tolerant so easier to play with when tired
• I can play closer to the table (I've never used anything outer carbon that would be faster than Off+, though) and press my opponent
• and I love the hard balls that come the opponents' way from Viscaria type outer blades
Disadvantages? I do understand the potential issue with unneeded bounciness if rubbers with catapult are used. So proper active strokes in short game are probably needed.

What blades do you currently use? thanks

 

[ripctt2]

It also depends on the carbon used, the thickness and selection of the wood plies, how these are glued and so on.

If we look at the data from TTGearLab than an Ovtcharov InnerForce ALC at 88g is as fast as a Viscaria at 87.1g (base speed) but when hitting hard the Ovtcharov will hold the ball longer. DHS outer blades with A-fiber like the TG506A or Stigas Carbonado series have a similar characteristic (base speed like an outer but deep hold similar to inner carbon).
Something similar can be achieved with other fibers (e.g. glass fiber or basalt). Sergio from SDC blades has a good overview https://www.sdcttblades.com/materials/fibers

What definitely should be considered is that e.g. the ALC in an inner carbon blade needs a lot more input from the player to get "activated". An outer carbon blade is easier activated.
In short: it depends a lot on ones playing style what kind of blade is a good fit.

Performance Indices DB – Fiber Blades (Inner)

Note : All values are average values, and can be updated by further measurement. Quad/Triple FiberOuterInner3+2 plyCenter Fiber7-ply Wood5-ply Wood andro & Avalox / Inner NameAvg.Wt (g)EpEcEc/E…

ttgearlab.com

Performance Indices DB – Fiber Blades (Outer)

Note : All values are average values, and can be updated by further measurement. Quad/Triple FiberOuterInner3+2 plyCenter Fiber7-ply Wood5-ply Wood andro / Outer NameAvg.Wt (g)EpEcEc/EpVpVlVl/Vpand…

ttgearlab.com

do you thin kits easier to loop with outer or inner carbon? i mean obv depends on the blade
's charateristics but say we if we take fzd alc and like harimoto innerforce, (i think it might be inner carbon thats easier) but outer carbon is easier to activate so im not too sure.

 

[ttpb]

What blades do you currently use? thanks

Training:
DHS King ACB + H3 Prov BS + H8 (harder to generate spin and play non-power loops); my most difficult setup so far
Stuor Long 5 + H3Neo + Sanwei Gear Hyper — very looping-oriented (harder to play power loops, though).

Competition (when tired or against pips):
Yinhe Pro 01 + Omega 8 China + Omega 8 Pro — very versatile blade, can do everything (provokes me into flat play too often, though, since my looping is still work in progress).

 

[BackhandSteve]

Hey! Listen to the ITTF trainer. Not us! Just saying.

 

[jonol]

I find the outer wood layer to be just as important as where the carbon layer sits. Head size and how the blade is balanced too.

For example, 3 blades I really liked the feeling of when I was looking to switch from wood to carbon were the Harimoto ALC, Ovtcharov ALC and Mizutani Jun ZLC. All 3 have a limba outer ply.

I found the Viscaria and TB ALC both to feel too bouncy and stiff, and didn't complement my style of play very well. They have a harder outer ply made with koto.

I ended up with the Harimoto ALC, as it felt the best. Without realising, it also most closely matches the Stratus Power Wood I had, which has a limba outer ply and a slightly oversized head.

I think that going from the Ovtcharov ALC (similar feel to Harimoto ALC) to a blade with a different outer wood layer, as well as outer carbon might actually be really jarring and take you out of your comfort zone.

That said, I also have a similar sentiment to you: much better players than me, play against much better competition than me and still use inner carbon blades with soft outer layers. If I feel comfortable with how the blade plays, then improvement surely depends more on how I practice than changing a blade. I could see it being worth to change to an outer carbon if you feel like it would let you play a style you would prefer to play, but I have to agree that a stiff outer carbon blade is not "better" but rather emphasizes playing in a slightly different way than an inner carbon blade might.

 

[dprsspins]

Training:
DHS King ACB + H3 Prov BS + H8 (harder to generate spin and play non-power loops); my most difficult setup so far
Stuor Long 5 + H3Neo + Sanwei Gear Hyper — very looping-oriented (harder to play power loops, though).

Competition (when tired or against pips):
Yinhe Pro 01 + Omega 8 China + Omega 8 Pro — very versatile blade, can do everything (provokes me into flat play too often, though, since my looping is still work in progress)

Funny, just yesterday I got to try a club mate's Yinhe Pro 01 with D05 fh T05 bh. I actually found it very controllable, even with T05 forehand. Also I expected the cheaper Yinhe blade to feel noticeably unrefined compared to the Butterfly, but the differences is subtle enough. Yinhe Pro 01 actually has a decent feel to it, albeit not crack-crystal clear feedback like Butterfly.

I actually found Yinhe Pro 01 to be noticeably more lower throwing, but with proper brushing topspin can still be quite nasty. It's not as fast as I thought an outer carbon would be, but it definitely feels different from inner carbon blades. It feels more stiff and hardens with a cracky impact feel at lower gears compared to inner carbon, but it can still play short well.

Your DHS setup is possibly the more premium, 'pro-favored' setup, but yeah I get why you would go for Yinhe Pro 01 for your competitions. It's less spin sensitive, and gives more speed at equal strength input.

 

[ttarc]

do you thin kits easier to loop with outer or inner carbon? i mean obv depends on the blade
's charateristics but say we if we take fzd alc and like harimoto innerforce, (i think it might be inner carbon thats easier) but outer carbon is easier to activate so im not too sure.

1. I've not played or tested all of these blades...
2. It depends on so many things...

As @jonol already said: head size, balance with rubbers but also handle shape 1) and of course feedback from the blade. I like the (more) precise feedback from outer carbon blades and I also prefer the crispness especially on BH. Since I'm using H3N on FH 2) I can also choose sponge hardness and adjust bounciness (OS vs BS)/dwell time to fit it to the blade which is not that easy to do with ESN or Butterfly rubbers...
I also don't try to loop kill everything close to the table anymore as I did with my YEO (we all get older...). Still works but there are better blades for this 3). Spinny open ups are imo just different, needs a bit more control on the user side and are spinnier with inner carbon 4). Counter loops are imo easier with an outer carbon blade (up to a certain distance) especially if not in the optimal position.

In short: Which tradeoff do you want? What is your playing style?

1) there are blades with handles I can't fully adjust to. Not just straight handles (works only for BH) but also some flared handles which either work for FH or BH but not for both...
2) on BH I still haven't settled on one rubber that fits/has the fewest drawbacks but it will be one where I can choose at least sponge hardness.
3) not necessarily inner carbon blades but also outer carbon blades with deeper hold and/or lower base speed e.g. the inexpensive Loki Rxton 5 Pro Outer with basalt fiber: slower, shorter trajectory, and deeper hold which works even better than my YEOs for these loops but further back this blade is for sure a disadvantage (for me, my playing style, my preferences etc.)
4) the question is how much that matters... if your opponents have difficulties to return such open ups than yes but this is usually only the case up to a certain level and it also depends on playing style. I simply expect that my open ups are returned with interest. So placement and speed are more crucial. Spin is necessary to land the ball but not that deciding anymore. Sometimes it is for sure

but nowadays I would certainly not recover after such a shot and play another set

 

[dprsspins]

Hey! Listen to the ITTF trainer. Not us! Just saying.

He isn't my official trainer, he just had a few rallies with me and saw one of my matches. He made a fast, passing comment, and got me curious about trying out outer carbon. Then he allowed me to try his FZD ALC with a black oil boosted Hurricane 3 National fh D05 bh, and that thing was insane. That setup was fast as heck but also dripping with touch and feedback.

I also know he's a butterfly brand ambassador, so part of me also questions on whether he's selling the brand or not... But after testing his blade and trying that club mate's Yinhe Pro 01 I'm starting to see the benefits of an outer carbon...

 

[steve888]

Training:
DHS King ACB + H3 Prov BS + H8 (harder to generate spin and play non-power loops); my most difficult setup so far
Stuor Long 5 + H3Neo + Sanwei Gear Hyper — very looping-oriented (harder to play power loops, though).

Competition (when tired or against pips):
Yinhe Pro 01 + Omega 8 China + Omega 8 Pro — very versatile blade, can do everything (provokes me into flat play too often, though, since my looping is still work in progress).

I have the Yinhe pro 1 too - a good blade, great control and reasonable fast, spinny and cheap. I think it probably one of the most controllable outer carbon blades. The only main negative I found is it lacks the feeling of the Butterfly blades. I also use a FZD alc and that's a nice blade too with more feeling but perhaps not as controllable as Yinhe pro 1.