ovtcharov innerforce alc splintering?

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Why spend good money and then ask for trouble by not sealing ?
Cause it changes the feeling and is unnecessary for most modern blades especially Butterfly. Don't know a single high level player who seals their blades and I know many...
 
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Don't understand what you're saying here
What I tried to say is if you are really sure that sealing a blade is still noticeable even though layers of glue are applied to both the blade and the rubber.

I am of the opinion that the effect of layers of glue is much more noticeable than a thin layer of sealing agent. So the effect of the sealing agent is totally irrelevant.
 
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What I tried to say is if you are really sure that sealing a blade is still noticeable even though layers of glue are applied to both the blade and the rubber.

I am of the opinion that the effect of layers of glue is much more noticeable than a thin layer of sealing agent. So the effect of the sealing agent is totally irrelevant.
Glue definitely has a huge effect on feeling too. But in the limited experience I've had with sealed blades they had a distinct feeling to them that unsealed version of those blades didn't have, a feeling that variation in gluing doesn't result in. But I guess that could've been due to the amount or type of sealant used.
 
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they had a distinct feeling to them that unsealed version of those blades didn't have
In order to attribute a change of feeling to the sealing agent, one must prepare two very identical rackets and compare them one by one.

So, the blades (of course same model, same manufacturer) must be equal in frequency, in total weight, core layer thickness, etc.
Both rubbers (of course same types, model, manufacturers, colors) must be identical in weight, the sponge hardness, etc.
Glueing must be identical in thickness of applied layers to the rubbers and the blade.

Only then - if one of those rackets differ only in sealing - a very good player could feel a difference if at all.

No one, really no one is doing that effort to understand the impact of sealing. So, if one comes around and says there is a difference, I just cannot believe it as there are so many different characteristics that are impossible to control in a 1-to-1 comparison.
 
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In order to attribute a change of feeling to the sealing agent, one must prepare two very identical rackets and compare them one by one.

So, the blades (of course same model, same manufacturer) must be equal in frequency, in total weight, core layer thickness, etc.
Both rubbers (of course same types, model, manufacturers, colors) must be identical in weight, the sponge hardness, etc.
Glueing must be identical in thickness of applied layers to the rubbers and the blade.

Only then - if one of those rackets differ only in sealing - a very good player could feel a difference if at all.

No one, really no one is doing that effort to understand the impact of sealing. So, if one comes around and says there is a difference, I just cannot believe it as there are so many different characteristics that are impossible to control in a 1-to-1 comparison.
Not really.

No amount of gluing or blade-to-blade/rubber-to-rubber variation is going to create a distinct glassy feeling on contact to a blade that doesn't already have a glassy feeling. I've seen and heard enough anecdotes of sealing giving a glassy feeling in many instances.
 
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I've seen and heard enough anecdotes of sealing giving a glassy feeling in many instances.
Again and then I shut up: You just cannot attribute any changes of perceived changes in playing characteristics to sealing if you have not two identical rackets of which one only differs in a layer of sealant and you can compare them one by one consecutively. Anything else is urban legends.
 
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Again and then I shut up: You just cannot attribute any changes of perceived changes in playing characteristics to sealing if you have not two identical rackets of which one only differs in a layer of sealant and you can compare them one by one consecutively. Anything else is urban legends.

You can when you're a good enough player who is in tune enough with their equipment. The actual urban legend is that a difference in a few grams or an extra thick application of glue leads to differences that are imperceivable from other externally applied differences like booster or sealant.
 
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Cause it changes the feeling and is unnecessary for most modern blades especially Butterfly. Don't know a single high level player who seals their blades and I know many...
Nobody on the planet notices a difference in a blind test. High level players are typically sponsored and replace blades every couple weeks, they don't even keep them long enough to get damage.
 
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Glue definitely has a huge effect on feeling too. But in the limited experience I've had with sealed blades they had a distinct feeling to them that unsealed version of those blades didn't have, a feeling that variation in gluing doesn't result in. But I guess that could've been due to the amount or type of sealant used.
one day I decided to make a little test,got myself one of those ultra cheap Loki blades and glued a very fine layer of fiberglass on one side only, using West -system epoxy resin. I glued on identical rubbers (same color too) and I'll be yucked if I can feel a difference. Now I know this proves nothing but it sure surprised me.
 
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Nobody on the planet notices a difference in a blind test. High level players are typically sponsored and replace blades every couple weeks, they don't even keep them long enough to get damage.
No most don't replace blades every couple weeks. And they could absolutely detect the differences in gluing/boosting/weight in a blind test. Seen it happen plenty.
 
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No most don't replace blades every couple weeks. And they could absolutely detect the differences in gluing/boosting/weight in a blind test. Seen it happen plenty.
Gluing yes as it can change the tension on the sponge or stretch it, boosting obviously, mass obviously. Sealing, not really. It doesn't change the performance curves at all as far as testing goes. It doesn't change the physical properties either, like the natural frequencies and spring constants. Much more likely there to be inconsistencies from the actual rubber application.

Why would they not change blades every couple weeks if they get 20-40 of them a year? I know some manufacturers are more stingy, perhaps Butterfly sponsored players only get 5 or whatever.
 
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Gluing yes as it can change the tension on the sponge or stretch it, boosting obviously, mass obviously. Sealing, not really. It doesn't change the performance curves at all as far as testing goes. It doesn't change the physical properties either, like the natural frequencies and spring constants. Much more likely there to be inconsistencies from the actual rubber application.

Why would they not change blades every couple weeks if they get 20-40 of them a year? I know some manufacturers are more stingy, perhaps Butterfly sponsored players only get 5 or whatever.
Depends what you are talking about high level here, you are talking about only the best players in the world who are getting 40 blades per year. And even for those who have the option, many of them prefer to stick to a blade rather than switch it as soon as it wears out from gluing or minor splintering. I know one top 50 player and another top 100 player who have both been using the same one blade for over 10 years despite having sponsorship deals.

The whole point of sealing is that it literally changes the physical properties lol. Maybe not at a feeling level perceivable to the average amateur, but you can't say that you are adding a chemical to a wood which supposedly changes the strength and resilience of the wood and then at the same time say there are no changes in physical properties lol.
 
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I have never sealed my blades, I use and have ruined lots of blades. If your blade can't handle WBG, I just don't buy it. and honestly, most blades that have had some damage still played decently, people act like it is the end of the world to have a damaged blade and it is not. The main exception for me is Stiga, I avoid their blades, I have had the worst experience with their stuff, that is one brand you should mostly seal.
 
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I have never sealed my blades, I use and have ruined lots of blades. If your blade can't handle WBG, I just don't buy it. and honestly, most blades that have had some damage still played decently, people act like it is the end of the world to have a damaged blade and it is not. The main exception for me is Stiga, I avoid their blades, I have had the worst experience with their stuff, that is one brand you should mostly seal.
Funnily I had an Allround Evolution that never got as much as a scratch, but I've chipped off a few parts of my Stratus Power Wood already in a month or so. Both sealed, but I suspect the job was pretty light on the SPW; I didn't do it myself. It should be a similar composition outer ply of the same species, but clearly the wood is different. EDIT: Or the glue used, amount used, clamping load used to assemble etc. is different. Who knows.

I think it was Carl who suggested I seal it because it's a Stiga, lol.

Depends what you are talking about high level here, you are talking about only the best players in the world who are getting 40 blades per year. And even for those who have the option, many of them prefer to stick to a blade rather than switch it as soon as it wears out from gluing or minor splintering. I know one top 50 player and another top 100 player who have both been using the same one blade for over 10 years despite having sponsorship deals.

The whole point of sealing is that it literally changes the physical properties lol. Maybe not at a feeling level perceivable to the average amateur, but you can't say that you are adding a chemical to a wood which supposedly changes the strength and resilience of the wood and then at the same time say there are no changes in physical properties lol.
Cool, I guess it depends on the person. A lot of people seem to rather prefer having consistency of a brand new product, of course those kind of people are fussy about mass and thickness and so on. I suppose if you've sweat-soaked a blade for a decade, it's probably consistent in its own way, and it will have softer playing characteristics if measurements of old vs new blades are to be believed. If you're under the liberty to reveal, who are those players?

Some people have made measurements of blades before and after sealing and the basic properties didn't change. I'm willing to believe that maybe there's some huge blindspot that is missing, but nothing comes to mind. If the bending, torsion and conical flex is the same exactly, it's the same, isn't it. The sealant is mostly there to change how the glue interacts with the surface AFAIK.
 
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Funnily I had an Allround Evolution that never got as much as a scratch, but I've chipped off a few parts of my Stratus Power Wood already in a month or so. Both sealed, but I suspect the job was pretty light on the SPW; I didn't do it myself. It should be a similar composition outer ply of the same species, but clearly the wood is different. EDIT: Or the glue used, amount used, clamping load used to assemble etc. is different. Who knows.

I think it was Carl who suggested I seal it because it's a Stiga, lol.


Cool, I guess it depends on the person. A lot of people seem to rather prefer having consistency of a brand new product, of course those kind of people are fussy about mass and thickness and so on. I suppose if you've sweat-soaked a blade for a decade, it's probably consistent in its own way, and it will have softer playing characteristics if measurements of old vs new blades are to be believed. If you're under the liberty to reveal, who are those players?

Some people have made measurements of blades before and after sealing and the basic properties didn't change. I'm willing to believe that maybe there's some huge blindspot that is missing, but nothing comes to mind. If the bending, torsion and conical flex is the same exactly, it's the same, isn't it. The sealant is mostly there to change how the glue interacts with the surface AFAIK.
The Stratus Powerwood is an extremely cheap and bad blade even if popular (and I did play well with it in the last decade not this one), I could easily have listed it, but that is more about the Powerwood than Tibhar blades in general. Every single Stiga blade I have ever bought had some issue with the top ply lamination to some degree.
 
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The Stratus Powerwood is an extremely cheap and bad blade even if popular (and I did play well with it in the last decade not this one), I could easily have listed it, but that is more about the Powerwood than Tibhar blades in general. Every single Stiga blade I have ever bought had some issue with the top ply lamination to some degree.
I'd have to agree. The finish is kind of bad on the SPW, and the amount of times I've hit it on the table seems to correspond with the amount of dents it has. The Allround Evo was abused much more and it still looked brand new after years and years. In my hands, this blade will be completely destroyed by the end of the year. It is also extremely overpriced for what it is. I'm sure better blades can be found for half the cost.

I can't really give an honest comment on how it performs but let's just say I am trying to find another blade. I would much rather use the Allround Evo and regret not taking it with me.

I never actually changed the rubbers on the Allround Evo, those Super FX I stuck on it stayed on forever. Maybe it'd have ripped the top plies right off if I ever changed the rubbers, despite my overkill varnishing.
 
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You can when you're a good enough player who is in tune enough with their equipment.
Maybe I'm then not good enough. That can certainly be the case.

But think about this one. Everybody knows that Butterfly blades come factory-sealed. Out there, there are many, many really good table tennis players that can be considered pros or half-pros or ...
Do you honestly think they would play all those factory-sealed blades if those have a glassy feeling?
Same with Victas Koki Niwa ZC which is factory-sealed like hell. Would anyone play it if it as a glassy feeling?
 
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