Pre Season Training & Matches

[Zezima]

Nice to see that you are working hard. I just watched the first video
- maybe it is the angle of the camera but the strokes seems pretty small, like you are holding in the stroke?
- I also think you could push more from the ground on the first stroke and when you try to loop hard try use hip even more, push it forward. Like if you are goin to throw something far away
- good to differentiate i think between slow loop with spin or hard loop. Inbetween is not as good as first loop
- get more spin in the stroke. The harder opening loop maybe need to have thicked contact but it seems in general like the ball sometimes go out since you get a thick contact. At least if he push less backspin.
Maybe try this for more spin:
- practice half long pushes to loop at or loop loop. When the ball is under the net you need to create more spin
- let the forearm loose
- closed racket angle, at least on the second loop. Starting with the racket higher and come out more will also make you go over the ball more
- maybe more backhandgrip. Hard to change grip. I would say that a lot of players today have more backhandgrip. A little more backhand grip will give you less thick contact

I think i would practice:
- like you do now but focus on getting forearm loose and get a lot of spin. Then coming out and following up good. Need to be beneficial to get the first loop, so have to be good at second loop
- multiball and try to loop hard by pushing from leg and hip. Maybe worth trying to exaggerate almost not moving arm at all just to get the feeling
- maybe try some more backhand grip. Think this could help backhand and give more spin in forehand without changing anything else

I think it is wise to think about making it functional and working. Technique is not everything. But i think you do a lot of good things aswell!
like:
- low serve
- racket in the middle at the beginning and between strokes
- bending legs pretty well and moves out good
- also seem very serious

Keep up the good work

I can do the slow spin open up already. I was working on going for more speed this time around.

The slow spinny also makes me not being able to focus on followup ball because my practise partners struggle blocking that ball.

I can go harder on these balls but I tend to lose consistency a lot. I overshoot a lot. Still trying to figure out to get a feel to make the ball dip faster while hitting it harder.

I can exaggarate a bit next time and go all out for a minute without caring about the ball landing on the table sure. But I doubt I will ever use it in a real match since I don't habe the training environment to make it work. I try to focus on things that fit my gamestyle (allround offensiv) instead of all out attacker.

I like varying speed spin block and attacks. And prefer medium paced ball exchanges where I get enough time to switch to attack.

Also my attackpower was never the problem in my losses. It's mainly receive and bh opener. But bh opener looks much better with r7 now. I can also punch block with bh now. I couldn't do it with d09c.

 

[Archosaurus]

I don't know why but I perform much better if I serve this kind of backspin (spinwise) Anything more and they just need to hold out the right racket angle and the ball comes low and fast to my side. I don't have the needed reactiontime to get in position to loop then.

Okay, fair. That's the kind of ball I'm talking about. It's ideal to loop, because it's fast enough to get some pace off and has high enough spin to get friction off. You can also quite easily condition them into popping it up if they stop reading it and you change the spin amount or axis slightly.

I'm surprised players over 1500 let you get away with serving like this (Drill and matches) but the game is complicated, so I suppose if it works then it's fair enough.

 

[Lula]

I can do the slow spin open up already. I was working on going for more speed this time around.

The slow spinny also makes me not being able to focus on followup ball because my practise partners struggle blocking that ball.

I can go harder on these balls but I tend to lose consistency a lot. I overshoot a lot. Still trying to figure out to get a feel to make the ball dip faster while hitting it harder.

I can exaggarate a bit next time and go all out for a minute without caring about the ball landing on the table sure. But I doubt I will ever use it in a real match since I don't habe the training environment to make it work. I try to focus on things that fit my gamestyle (allround offensiv) instead of all out attacker.

I like varying speed spin block and attacks. And prefer medium paced ball exchanges where I get enough time to switch to attack.

Also my attackpower was never the problem in my losses. It's mainly receive and bh opener. But bh opener looks much better with r7 now. I can also punch block with bh now. I couldn't do it with d09c.

Okey sounds good, especially trying to practice according to your playing style. Interesting how much equipment can change the game. Maybe a slower 5 ply blade could help the ball dip more.

I never said you should go all out and miss. Just that if you can get more hip in the ball i think you will be able to play harder. And like you said that it differ from soft and hard, but do not really need to be hard and harder.

Doing multiball i think would be a good idea if you have the balls. Then it do not matter as much your playing partners level and probably feels easier to practice looping hard against backspin aswell against block. Also possible to go more from the results and not the technique.

I still think getting forearm more loose, maybe a bit more backhandgrip so racket get more closed or having racket higher or closing the racket angle a bit more will help you get the ball to dip since you get a bit more spin. My personal opinion is that it is always better to miss in the net, never want the power to go up.

 

[Archosaurus]

At the risk of sounding very pretentious, and with a disclaimer that Zezima's playing level is higher than mine so he can choose to care or not care about what I think:

Looking at that opener video, a lot of the time you lift the ball by opening the angle a bit and pushing the elbow upwards and a bit forward. I think that might be one cause for why you overshoot if you add power.

Refer to timestamp for an obvious one:

I don't know how you'd fix that, or if you definitely have to fix that, but to me it looks like your followthrough is symptomatic. You finish with the bat across your chest (Well, it's not too low, so more like across your head. )and pointing to the side. Maybe that's a German thing and that's just how you are supposed to swing with BTY/ESN rubbers, but it's something that catches my eye.

 

[Zezima]

Okay, fair. That's the kind of ball I'm talking about. It's ideal to loop, because it's fast enough to get some pace off and has high enough spin to get friction off. You can also quite easily condition them into popping it up if they stop reading it and you change the spin amount or axis slightly.

I'm surprised players over 1500 let you get away with serving like this (Drill and matches) but the game is complicated, so I suppose if it works then it's fair enough.

Your first paragraph I am not sure if I understand it.

Well 90% I get a push back. Hell even if I serve topspin to their backhand if its shortish they still push it. Very uncomfortable for me so they keep doing it.
Also this is my most "simple" serve its just a plain backspin serve to keep the drill easy enough for him. I also trained free serve 3rd ball attack last 7min to make it more "unpredictable" but his return rate was around 30%.

 

[Zezima]

At the risk of sounding very pretentious, and with a disclaimer that Zezima's playing level is higher than mine so he can choose to care or not care about what I think:

Looking at that opener video, a lot of the time you lift the ball by opening the angle a bit and pushing the elbow upwards and a bit forward. I think that might be one cause for why you overshoot if you add power.

Refer to timestamp for an obvious one:

I don't know how you'd fix that, or if you definitely have to fix that, but to me it looks like your followthrough is symptomatic. You finish with the bat across your chest (Well, it's not too low, so more like across your head. )and pointing to the side. Maybe that's a German thing and that's just how you are supposed to swing with BTY/ESN rubbers, but it's something that catches my eye.

Idk if you mean what I realized I will just describe it and you can say yes or no:
Since I have no coach I "learned" unintentionally to overload my elbows responsibility meaning that my elbow doesn't only act as pivot but also "pushing" into the ball if that makes sense.

From what I understood that should not happen but the elbow moving forwards should only happen because the hips rotate.

I also sometimes feel like I have enough time until the ball has landed on my side and because of my movement I seem to be 0,2sec too late. So my arm is still almost at starting point when it should be more "higher up" at the acceleration phase. And when I hit it too late and the arm is still low I overshoot. Atleast thats how I analyzed it.

Okey sounds good, especially trying to practice according to your playing style. Interesting how much equipment can change the game. Maybe a slower 5 ply blade could help the ball dip more.

I never said you should go all out and miss. Just that if you can get more hip in the ball i think you will be able to play harder. And like you said that it differ from soft and hard, but do not really need to be hard and harder.

Doing multiball i think would be a good idea if you have the balls. Then it do not matter as much your playing partners level and probably feels easier to practice looping hard against backspin aswell against block. Also possible to go more from the results and not the technique.

I still think getting forearm more loose, maybe a bit more backhandgrip so racket get more closed or having racket higher or closing the racket angle a bit more will help you get the ball to dip since you get a bit more spin. My personal opinion is that it is always better to miss in the net, never want the power to go up.

This is already a 5 ply blade but it's still a fast wood blade. From the feeling I can say that I don't need a carbon blade. I compensate with how big I am so I can technically reach high power if I just practise. But again it's not how I win my games. Think of me something like samsonov,mengel type of playstyle and not something like Sora or felix or even someone like aruna.

I tried doing multiball here with them but its catastrophic. They can put only 30% of the balls and the balls are no spin mainly. Much better to tell them to serve a specific ball.

I have more success with a more open racket angle. If you watch my older videos I had a very closed racket angle and I was opening up my racket angle right before contact. So it messed up when I wanted to hit harder. It got slightly better now I think. I don't change my racket angle too much atleast not in the drills.

My forearm is quite lose tbh. Idk what your obsession with backhand grip is though. I def hit better quality balls with a forehand grip. I also feel like sometimes if I am too slow at changing I am forced to loop diagonally because of the grip. I want to stay flexible and hit anywhere on the table. And again Spin is definetly not my weakness for this level.
Even a 1850 (highest I played vs) struggles if I do a slower spinny loop. I just run the risk of looping too short and high arc thats what I try to avoid so they don't slap the ball. High arc but deeper is best though.

My next step currently is to rotate into the ball a tiny bit faster and taking a good half a step jump back after the opener to hit a quality shot vs block (having more time).

I am also experimenting a bit with deeper to the side placement so I don't get surprised when they block parallel (my diagonal opener) which would be harder for them if I place it wide to the side. Basically trying to make their return more predictable for me.

 

[Archosaurus]

Your first paragraph I am not sure if I understand it.

Well 90% I get a push back. Hell even if I serve topspin to their backhand if its shortish they still push it. Very uncomfortable for me so they keep doing it.
Also this is my most "simple" serve its just a plain backspin serve to keep the drill easy enough for him. I also trained free serve 3rd ball attack last 7min to make it more "unpredictable" but his return rate was around 30%.

What part specifically is unclear?

Are you also serving simple to that 1850 TTR kid? He is returning balls in a pretty mundane way that you have a lot of problems with.

My point is that if you served with more backspin quality, and low and short enough that he won't just loop all of them, the chance of receiving a long push that you can attack strongly (Which you said you prefer) would increase.

Then you can mix in some light backspin and light topspin to also get some popups if he is unable to read your serve well.

Idk if you mean what I realized I will just describe it and you can say yes or no:
Since I have no coach I "learned" unintentionally to overload my elbows responsibility meaning that my elbow doesn't only act as pivot but also "pushing" into the ball if that makes sense.

From what I understood that should not happen but the elbow moving forwards should only happen because the hips rotate.

I also sometimes feel like I have enough time until the ball has landed on my side and because of my movement I seem to be 0,2sec too late. So my arm is still almost at starting point when it should be more "higher up" at the acceleration phase. And when I hit it too late and the arm is still low I overshoot. Atleast thats how I analyzed it.

Yes, that's more or less what I mean.

One thing that works for me is roughly timing loading up the right leg with the moment the opponent's shot bounces on my side of the table. Of course I make plenty of mistakes myself, but that "system" has helped me a lot.

It's not a sure-fire way to hit the ball in games (You will often misjudge the position a little) but slightly unloading the right leg and making some small steps into the ball, then loading it again and playing the shot helps a lot. I noticed in your serve and FH followup video that your legs are often in the same position, even if the opponent plays a shot that's slightly more to the side, so it may be important to pay attention to that and make small steps automatic.

I can hit 30+ decent quality (Let's say 70-80%) semi-random forehand and backhand loops vs good blockers in drills by just focusing on that timing and making sure I use small steps and otherwise hitting instinctually. When I hit with beginners even in just a FH-FH or BH-BH drill, they don't do that and will usually make a mistake if my shot is even a few cm in the wrong spot.

Unfortunately similarly to your case, players close to my level can't handle more than 5, so maybe it's time for you to find someone who can drill very well.

 

[Zezima]

Here I train with someone who I beat in a trainingsmatch the first time. He is from FL his rating is higher than mine and I am not sure what my rating this season will be in swiss. He is very controlled I was focusing on hittinf hard fh topspins and then after 2min or so tries practising 3rd ball but it was a disaster. Was 1 week out and sick (still am but couldn't sit at home for longer)

Season starts in 2 weeks and we won't be able to train in a while together I think. Also our first league match will be against each other lol.

Anyway he makes my weakness clearly visible obviously. I gave my best but it feels like the harder I hit and try to use my body the less arc I get into the ball. Can someone analyze if I am bottoming out or just did something else wrong?
I also use my hips and weight distribution on left leg on the fh exercise.

 

[jk1980]

The video is consistent with your earlier statement that you serve that "low" backspin serve, because it works so well in games. If i was to guess i would say you probably create around 30 rps of backspin with that serve. if you are training the 3rd ball attack like in the past video where the other guy just lifted the ball long back to you then there is probably at max 20 rps of backspin in the ball which makes it very easy to power loop for a winner. If it is high enough you could even blast it past the opponent even if you did not know how to properly create topspin.

now when doing the exercise with this current training partner we see the big difference. he does push properly giving his own backspin to the equation making the ball returned having heavier spin than you give him. this is why you quite often have trouble looping it with your current forehand technique.

this training partner clearly has some technical education because he does not only have feel but also quite stable shots all around.

You having a miserable time trying to attack the 3rd ball is the logical result of the way you like to play your forehand currently. even the "loop" against blocks where at most 50% spin 50% power if not more on the power side. If you struggle to have consistency getting an incoming topspin or blocked ball over the net then the issues are more severe and it is only logical that the nightmare continues if you use such a technique to try to loop a backspin ball.

i think you can even hear it quite well. Some topspin loops vs block have a more muted spinny sound but all faster ones are more slaps with a harsh sound. Sometimes the ball is high enough or the incoming topspin is enough for you to clear the net with the slappy technique, but the consistency is obviously not there.

i have fought until now in my reply not to mention the equipment and i don't know what you are using right now. I would not advise you to switch it so close before the season but i think you might have missed a great opportunity to find something that supports your forehand loop development better during the past season break. If i was you i would simply accept that with the current setup and technique you are only able to slap loop real high or empty medium high balls and not think about changing equipment during the season.
For the next season break i would advise you to find a forehand rubber that basically does not work with your slap loop technique and forces you to get that habit out of your system, so you learn a proper loop against any type of ball, especially heavy to mid heavy backspin balls. If you fail over and over with the slap technique i hope it will unlearn to use this technique as first response to incoming push balls.

The other alternative is of course to build your system around your current ability which is what most people do.

good luck.

 

[Zezima]

The video is consistent with your earlier statement that you serve that "low" backspin serve, because it works so well in games. If i was to guess i would say you probably create around 30 rps of backspin with that serve. if you are training the 3rd ball attack like in the past video where the other guy just lifted the ball long back to you then there is probably at max 20 rps of backspin in the ball which makes it very easy to power loop for a winner. If it is high enough you could even blast it past the opponent even if you did not know how to properly create topspin.

now when doing the exercise with this current training partner we see the big difference. he does push properly giving his own backspin to the equation making the ball returned having heavier spin than you give him. this is why you quite often have trouble looping it with your current forehand technique.

this training partner clearly has some technical education because he does not only have feel but also quite stable shots all around.

You having a miserable time trying to attack the 3rd ball is the logical result of the way you like to play your forehand currently. even the "loop" against blocks where at most 50% spin 50% power if not more on the power side. If you struggle to have consistency getting an incoming topspin or blocked ball over the net then the issues are more severe and it is only logical that the nightmare continues if you use such a technique to try to loop a backspin ball.

i think you can even hear it quite well. Some topspin loops vs block have a more muted spinny sound but all faster ones are more slaps with a harsh sound. Sometimes the ball is high enough or the incoming topspin is enough for you to clear the net with the slappy technique, but the consistency is obviously not there.

i have fought until now in my reply not to mention the equipment and i don't know what you are using right now. I would not advise you to switch it so close before the season but i think you might have missed a great opportunity to find something that supports your forehand loop development better during the past season break. If i was you i would simply accept that with the current setup and technique you are only able to slap loop real high or empty medium high balls and not think about changing equipment during the season.
For the next season break i would advise you to find a forehand rubber that basically does not work with your slap loop technique and forces you to get that habit out of your system, so you learn a proper loop against any type of ball, especially heavy to mid heavy backspin balls. If you fail over and over with the slap technique i hope it will unlearn to use this technique as first response to incoming push balls.

The other alternative is of course to build your system around your current ability which is what most people do.

good luck.

The first 2min or so where I only FH loop is not how I loop in matches as you might have watched a few. I try to hit hard in training since I know in matchplay I go down by 30% power atleast.
I also loop more safer in matches unless I think I can end the point or am confident because I didn't have to move to get in position.

The serve return exercise also showed me I need a short touch/ pushing drill before I practise this. Since we didn't practise a consistent one type of return push it was hard for me to adjust to all the different placement and spin. It's also our 2nd time so I was surprised with all his different variation of push returns. Very good for me to practise with in future.

The first 2min also looks much better in terms of looping at different pace different spin/power ratio.

The serve return one I was limit testing a lot but my footwork, spinreading and having no anticipation fucked me up a lot. So hard to give rubber a fault. The question here for me is only during the first 2min if I am bottoming out or not. I am not entirely sure how that should feel. Since it goes through the blade the outcome (straight line out) looks the same as a "slapped" ball no? How do you differentiate here?

All I can say for sure it the faster I try to hit the ball with forwards rotation the less feedback I get. Kinda weird and makes me not want to go for these hard forehand topspins. In most of the shots I didn't feel like my technique broke down. And going for a even slower/softer rubber would be the opposite direction that I want to go.

Also what exactly do you mean with my slap forehand technique? Up until now I got told many times that my FH is very slow and weak/safe loops only and the punch is missing to be dangerous. Now I practise for those dangerous faster loops and I should go back and slow down and focus on more slower but spinnier loops? I can already do that.

 

[jk1980]

note that i never said that you should go softer with your equipment. at the end of the video it is clear that your opponent has great variety in his pushes and he simply can surprise you with something new each time. That is obviously hard to train specific things against.

First off i would go be the sound and trajectory of the balls to differentiate between slap and loop. If we only take the first few balls, the first had a more flat sound, while the second stroke of yours clearly was hit more spinny, then the next two until you hit the net where again more slappy.

With such a low framerate and resolution it's hard to really figure out the cause, but looking at the first strokes it looks like when the ball is lower you at least try to spin, while when the ball is higher your spin to power relation shifts heavily towards power which can work if the incoming ball has enough spin/rotation to lift the ball by itself a little basically evening out your more flat stroke.

that is just my theory though...