Returning player (AR+/OFF–) looking for versatile rubbers for Xiom Hugo HAL [no longer: Cybershape Wood]

[Doppelschlag]

Your biggest problem here is your outlook on this.
Check back your posts, you are obsessed with the idea that the equipment will make a big difference, so you have convinced yourself with every racket you've picked up that the equipment is making a big difference.
Almost any all wood blade with Rakza 7, Butterfly Rozena, Vega X, Vega Europe would have been perfect for 12 months, even G1 both sides would be fine as long as you stick with it and commit to it.
Believing there is a perfect perfect setup at this level will have you constantly doubting your equipment and that is gonna be bad for your game. It's all good so just fire ahead and have fun with it.
You're not selecting Viscaria with D09c and Boosted H3 so you are miles away from the big mistakes.
You will do your head in if you keep digging into this.
If all of this is really about getting better then keep what you have and invest your money and effort in coaching and practice.
Enjoy!

Thanks for taking your time to share your thoughts, I do mean it! You are probably right about some of it. One thing about forums, though, is that one rarely sees what is happening in the background—only the issues tend to get articulated.

So, with the risk of sounding a smidgen defensive, I would like to clarify: since joining the forum, I have—after careful deliberation and tips from the beehive mind—acquired exactly one (1) blade, and glued only one single rubber, same on both sides. I have played 3–4 times a week, without changing a thing. I am wholeheartedly d’accord with the view that equipment does not make the big difference.

I am, however, of an unrelentingly curious nature. After some 25 sessions and close to 80 hours of testing, a genuine feeling that something isn’t quite right—echoed by coaches at the club—seems reasonable for me to reflect upon. The culprit was my testing the clubmate’s setup yesterday, when I was suddenly able, simply to put many more balls securely on the table, something that invoked a sense of confidence.

All that said, I still completely and fully agree that dedication, practice, and coaching are the real keys (I know this very well from my profession as well). I simply hope to get the equipment adequately settled so it doesn’t become a needless distraction again. And since my seller seemed to steer me towards faster gear, I’d rather ask here first. And, as you so pointedly remarked, I do want to steer clear of further mistakes; hence my questions, so that I don’t buy above my level again. If possible, I would like to keep the blade and slow down the rubbers.

 

[golden_son]

Ok, so in yesterday's training session I played for an hour with a friend’s bat. She had a Victas Swat Carbon with

• FH: Tibhar Hybrid K1 2.0 mm
• BH: Xiom Vega Europe 1.8mm

Since I’ve played Vega Europe on many blades now, I am confident to say that the her and my blades are somewhere in the same ballpark, for me to possibly gauge the rubbers.

(Background: My very first impulse after getting my HAL was to get a soft hybrid on FH, but the seller talked me out of it, so here I am with Vega X. I am returing after a long hiatus. Have good basic movements and feel, but need work on technique. Allround/non-specific style of play.)

Straightaway, I really liked the concept of her setup. So I need your help replicate it for me. The K1 felt easy to handle, and didn't realize until coming home googling it that is 50°. I absolutely felt more controllable than Vega X.

1. First question: But since I’m new to hybrids, maybe still go with a medium hybrid?

2. And: dipping my toes into hybrids, do you think I should put it on both sides directly, or rather start with FH only?

Therefore, what do you think about:
FH: Medium Hybrid, 45–48°
BH: Soft Tensor, 45°

For FH, I am nominating, as of people’s recommendations above:

1. Victas V>15 Sticky Soft
2. Nuzn 45 (maybe too soft? Or maybe not …?)
3. Xiom Vega Pro H
4. Victas V>20
5. Stiga Hybrid …?

3. Is it true that this whole category is relatively insensitive to incoming spin?

My top candidates are Victas V>15 Sticky Soft or Nuzn 45. Has anyone compared these? Victas is said to be a tad bouncier in the short game. Maybe Nuzn 45 is the wisest choice, if not overestimating myself?

For BH I already own a Xiom Omega VII Europe (probably 2.0, or Max), and also a Vega Europe 1.8mm. Someone said that the Omega VII is very fast, but it is softer. The Omega Europe would probably still be a tad slower and more playable than the Vega X?

This is a partial repost from another thread, where I asked about sticky rubbers only.

I think I have a pretty good grasp where you stand and since I own a HAL and have EJ'd around with rubbers in the ballpark of what you've tried/are considering, I'll throw my three cents in.

I wish I could let you try my setup to get your thoughts - I use a 47.5° tensor (Omega V Tour) on FH and 45° tensor on BH (Vega Korea). The OVT is a 10-year-old rubber so it's "dated" compared to even the Vega X but it has always felt like a "tamed" Tenergy 05 and I love it. I think it would offer more control than the Vega X but 1) it is still pretty fast, I'm just comfortable with it; and 2) I'd hate to recommend something you end up liking just for Xiom to finally discontinue it. (But seriously, Xiom Europe's description of the sponge for this rubber is spot-on with my experience. It's really underrated as an intermediate rubber, probably because it's from a "pro-line" series that got surpassed.)

I think you'll find a lot of air between the K1 on your friend's racket and the modern hybrids you're considering. ESN hybrid technology has come a long way, but the corollary to that is that the ease with which you felt you could handle the K1 is likely erased by the livelier sponges and different tackiness of a NUZN 45 or Vega Pro/Euro Hybrid. Going to a softer sponge, too, will make it bouncier as well. Soft sponges give more control only in the sense that they don't require as much power to get dwell in the sponge, keeping the ball on the racket longer while you complete your stroke; but they are also bouncier, which is why a lot of players feel that harder rubbers are actually easier to control. This may be the case with why you liked the K1.

I've used Vega Pro H on the HAL (both FH and BH) and didn't really like it. On BH I just find anything over 45° too fast for me, but I liked the slight stickiness. It's hard to say why I didn't like it on FH. Maybe I'm too used to grippy rubbers and hybrid just isn't for me on that wing.

From that perspective, I am going to make perhaps a surprising recommendation for your forehand: DHS Gold Arc 8, 47.5°. It's a tensor but closer to a previous-gen one (like Rakza 7) than to Vega X. It's a little faster and grippier than R7 and a little easier to engage than G-1. I used it on my HAL before moving to the OVT. I'm not sure how many others would second this recommendation though (it's kind of a niche rubber), so if you want something more likely to get a broad consensus then G-1 should suit your needs. It's very linear--what you give is what you get.

On the BH, 45° rubbers seem to work beautifully. Rasanter R45 was fantastic (but dies quick); Vega Korea has been quite effective as well. I have an Omega 8 Euro lined up to test next. And after my experience with Vega Pro H on BH (and Moon 12 on another blade, which is slightly tacky), I'll admit I'm curious about NUZN 45 on that wing. But if you want a glue-it-and-forget-it setup, I wouldn't recommend experimenting with hybrids just yet. I always recommend trying what you have before buying something; since you have the O7E, try that first. If you don’t like it, you'll at least have a better idea of where to go next without having spent anything.

 

[Doppelschlag]

I think I have a pretty good grasp where you stand and since I own a HAL and have EJ'd around with rubbers in the ballpark of what you've tried/are considering, I'll throw my three cents in.

I wish I could let you try my setup to get your thoughts - I use a 47.5° tensor (Omega V Tour) on FH and 45° tensor on BH (Vega Korea). The OVT is a 10-year-old rubber so it's "dated" compared to even the Vega X but it has always felt like a "tamed" Tenergy 05 and I love it. I think it would offer more control than the Vega X but 1) it is still pretty fast, I'm just comfortable with it; and 2) I'd hate to recommend something you end up liking just for Xiom to finally discontinue it. (But seriously, Xiom Europe's description of the sponge for this rubber is spot-on with my experience. It's really underrated as an intermediate rubber, probably because it's from a "pro-line" series that got surpassed.)

I think you'll find a lot of air between the K1 on your friend's racket and the modern hybrids you're considering. ESN hybrid technology has come a long way, but the corollary to that is that the ease with which you felt you could handle the K1 is likely erased by the livelier sponges and different tackiness of a NUZN 45 or Vega Pro/Euro Hybrid. Going to a softer sponge, too, will make it bouncier as well. Soft sponges give more control only in the sense that they don't require as much power to get dwell in the sponge, keeping the ball on the racket longer while you complete your stroke; but they are also bouncier, which is why a lot of players feel that harder rubbers are actually easier to control. This may be the case with why you liked the K1.

I've used Vega Pro H on the HAL (both FH and BH) and didn't really like it. On BH I just find anything over 45° too fast for me, but I liked the slight stickiness. It's hard to say why I didn't like it on FH. Maybe I'm too used to grippy rubbers and hybrid just isn't for me on that wing.

From that perspective, I am going to make perhaps a surprising recommendation for your forehand: DHS Gold Arc 8, 47.5°. It's a tensor but closer to a previous-gen one (like Rakza 7) than to Vega X. It's a little faster and grippier than R7 and a little easier to engage than G-1. I used it on my HAL before moving to the OVT. I'm not sure how many others would second this recommendation though (it's kind of a niche rubber), so if you want something more likely to get a broad consensus then G-1 should suit your needs. It's very linear--what you give is what you get.

On the BH, 45° rubbers seem to work beautifully. Rasanter R45 was fantastic (but dies quick); Vega Korea has been quite effective as well. I have an Omega 8 Euro lined up to test next. And after my experience with Vega Pro H on BH (and Moon 12 on another blade, which is slightly tacky), I'll admit I'm curious about NUZN 45 on that wing. But if you want a glue-it-and-forget-it setup, I wouldn't recommend experimenting with hybrids just yet. I always recommend trying what you have before buying something; since you have the O7E, try that first. If you don’t like it, you'll at least have a better idea of where to go next without having spent anything.

Thanks a lot for your input, that is really helpful! First step seems easy then, I’ll just slap the O7europe on BH (The V Europe is with 1.8mm too far from the current Vega X setup, I believe).

So you tend to advise against any medium non-tacky hybrid on FH, correct? Still, just for my understanding: It seems, that most of these rubbers feel a bit softer than their stated hardness, compared pure tensors. T Hybrid MK and the like, people tend to describe as feeling softer and more “forgiving”. That’s why I’m flirting with the idea of a 47–48° soft hybrid on FH still. Generally speaking, I am not necessarily searching for glue-and-forget, rather glue-and-learn/adopt, with the only caveat, that it be not too fast/uncontrolled for my level. I am indeed aware, that one needs to activate more with hybrids. Would a 47,5°, like V>15 Sticky Soft (which, allegedly, is not sticky), or the V>20, be less bouncy than Nuzn 45 and something to maybe consider, for something akin to the tried K1?

DHS Gold Arc 8 sounds really intriguing, but rather expensive here I must say.

What I can do, is ask my seller about their used rubbers – they have a bunch of rubbers that have been used only 1–2 times (normally for competitions), then are given back. They sell them for 3 € a piece, including glueing. If he has anything like this, it could be worth trying, without having to invest first. Maybe he even has a Gold Arc or a hybrid …

Edit: I realize now, I have a used Europe H on a bat that was lent to me, and that I played with for a while. Could also be a no-cost option to try on FH, unless it’s too soft for FH, which I guess it probably is.

 

[golden_son]

Thanks a lot for your input, that is really helpful! First step seems easy then, I’ll just slap the O7europe on BH (The V Europe is with 1.8mm too far from the current Vega X setup, I believe).

So you tend to advise against any medium non-tacky hybrid on FH, correct? Still, just for my understanding: It seems, that most of these rubbers feel a bit softer than their stated hardness, compared pure tensors. T Hybrid MK and the like, people tend to describe as feeling softer and more “forgiving”. That’s why I’m flirting with the idea of a 47–48° soft hybrid on FH still. Generally speaking, I am not necessarily searching for glue-and-forget, rather glue-and-learn/adopt, with the only caveat, that it be not too fast/uncontrolled for my level. I am indeed aware, that one needs to activate more with hybrids. Would a 47,5°, like V>15 Sticky Soft (which, allegedly, is not sticky), or the V>20, be less bouncy than Nuzn 45 and something to maybe consider, for something akin to the tried K1?

DHS Gold Arc 8 sounds really intriguing, but rather expensive here I must say.

What I can do, is ask my seller about their used rubbers – they have a bunch of rubbers that have been used only 1–2 times (normally for competitions), then are given back. They sell them for 3 € a piece, including glueing. If he has anything like this, it could be worth trying, without having to invest first. Maybe he even has a Gold Arc or a hybrid …

Edit: I realize now, I have a used Europe H on a bat that was lent to me, and that I played with for a while. Could also be a no-cost option to try on FH, unless it’s too soft for FH, which I guess it probably is.

Re: Euro H on FH, "too soft" is subjective. 47.5° is the sweet spot for me but it may not be for you. Supposedly the Vega Euro H has a pretty hard topsheet so it actually feels harder than 45°, but I've only used the Pro H, not Euro. Since you have it, why not try it? It would at least (mostly) answer if you like hybrids generally and (maybe) would enjoy NUZN 45, or only liked the K1 for some other reason.

Victas is one of the few brands I have no experience with so I can't reflect on those with much confidence, but in theory yes, they would somewhat less bouncy on soft shots and faster on hard shots (than a 45°). Should be akin to Vega Pro H. In fact, which Xiom and Victas being produced in the same factory they may be more similar than different... Not sure if that helps any.

The used rubber idea is solid! I wish there were a place near me that bought and sold used rubbers. Even getting $5 for something they resell for 10-15 would be a win for everybody.

 

[Doppelschlag]

Thanks all! The seller had around 40 rubbers for testing, so so he kindly glued me two rubbers (in return for a donation to their coffee fund). So now I have

• FH: Tibhar Hybrid MK-FX (unknown thickness)
• BH: Xiom Vega Europe 1.8mm Edit: 2.0 mm

After glueing, we played in the store for 20 minutes and it immediately felt a bit more secure than the previous setup.

Thanks all for your help! Will go back to grinding technique now, trying to forget all about equipment for a long while.

PS. Such good service, to be able to test rubbers for almost no cost. That certainly binds customer to their excellent store.