Rubber cost

[Doralikesmath]

The pips are cylindrical. They can only be so high. Thicker pips will not give as much, especially tangentially.
T25 pips are thicker than T05. pips with the same sponge. The T25 pips don't let the top sheet stretch across the suface as much for adding spin.

Why is it T05 instead up T500? They are only up to 80.
One doesn't need to make a whole mold to test pip sizes.
Much can be modeled before making.

As an engineer I would often tell my customers their design was not good, so they didn't need to waste money with the trial and error.
[/QUOTE]

They mention in their link, they did more than 200, and they only use last 2 digits of the experiment for the name; hence, T19 instead of T219. As for why they need that many experiments, I don't know, but I guess it's working as people are still using their Tenergies today after more than 10 years since their introduction.

 

[NetProphet]

Good info and also a good perspective on Butterfly, cheers.
I do know that their products are good. That maybe wasn't clear in my previous posts because I just can't get past the price and equating it to sponsorship (that I won't subsidse). So they're very good but just too expensive for me and not twice as good as the rubbers they are twice the price of and certainly not 3 X as good as those they are 3 X times the price of.
But that's Butterfly eh.

Getting back to the thread title and more general view, rubber is pretty cheap and the fact that maybe 70% (if I'm not being too generous here) of the good rubbers can be had for circa $40 a sheet and less kinda shows that I think.
Beyond that we have outliers in the top price bracket and fair enough if ppl wanna pay it! 😎
And at least the OP has some proper info in response to his Questions.
Cheers

 

[JJ Ng]

Good info and also a good perspective on Butterfly, cheers.
I do know that their products are good. That maybe wasn't clear in my previous posts because I just can't get past the price and equating it to sponsorship (that I won't subsidse). So they're very good but just too expensive for me and not twice as good as the rubbers they are twice the price of and certainly not 3 X as good as those they are 3 X times the price of.
But that's Butterfly eh.

Getting back to the thread title and more general view, rubber is pretty cheap and the fact that maybe 70% (if I'm not being too generous here) of the good rubbers can be had for circa $40 a sheet and less kinda shows that I think.
Beyond that we have outliers in the top price bracket and fair enough if ppl wanna pay it! 😎
And at least the OP has some proper info in response to his Questions.
Cheers

The only Butterfly products I use are the glue and Rozena.

My forehand is either H3 provincial blue sponge ($60 from Aliexpress) or Sanwei Target National ($30 from Megaspin). My backhand rubber is all ESN except Rozena. Regular prices are $35-$45. With 30% discount from TT11, they are $25-$32 a sheet.

I agree that pro's seem to benefit from Butterfly products but for us mere mortals, I don't know we can unlock the true potential of Tenergy and Dignics.

I am excited that Lebrun brothers are now sponsored by Tibhar. They seem to be pretty competitive even after switching from, presumably, Butterfly to Tibhar. Calderano seems to be using Xiom products (no cheating from him, unlike Fan Zhendong and Ovtcharov prevoiusly).

I beat noobies with Butterfly equipment all the time. They are set up with either Timo Boll ALC or Viscaria with either Tenergy or Dignics. I don't know why they spend that much on $400 set-up but it is their choice and their money.

 

[zeio]

Below are 2 articles (first published by Table Tennis Kingdom in 8/2016 and 12/2016) where Butterfly explains the issues arising from temperature and humidity variations, how going from prototyping to mass production is not straightforward (prototypes and retail products are 2 different animals), how sponge is much harder to produce than topsheet and so on.

テナジー、開発前夜。ブライスからテナジーへ。産みの苦しみ
https://www.butterfly.co.jp/story/front_runner/vol1_01.html
https://www.butterfly.co.jp/story/front_runner/vol1_02.html
https://www.butterfly.co.jp/story/front_runner/vol1_03.html

『スレイバー』が67年に発売され、30年の時を経て『ブライス』が発売されるまでは、品質の安定が最大のテーマだった。夏場になると、ラバーの表面が白く粉を吹いたようになる「ブルーム」もしばしば発生した。
ラバーの生産現場では、空調を効かせて厳密な温度・湿度管理を行い、一定の環境下で生産しても夏と冬では硬度の違いなどが出てくる。そのためプレス（焼成）する時の温度やゴムの配合にも微妙な調整を加えながら、一定の品質を保つことを目指した。
ハイテンション ラバーという新しい価値を生み出した『ブライス』の開発は、80年代後半にはすでにスタートし、91年頃にはプロトタイプ（試作品）ができていた。3年後の94年から、バタフライは大規模な設備投資やスタッフの増員を開始。ハイテンションという最新技術の研究に注力していく。

...

『テナジー』の試作品が出来上がったのは2000年頃。開発を始めてから試作品ができるまでに4年余り。ところが、そこから発売されるまでに倍の8年を要している。
「試作品の段階は、山登りで言えばまだ山の麓に着いたようなものですね。実際に山を登るのが量産試作といわれる段階です」と山崎は言う。
「試作品が出来上がってきても、1枚しか作れないのでは製品になりません。1万枚を生産できる量産技術を確立するまでの道のりの方が、はるかに長い。ゴムの配合を変え、試験を重ねながらテストを繰り返す。試作と量産は全く別の技術と言ってもいいくらいです」。 量産化への過程で、最も大きな課題はスポンジの強度だった。例えば生産する過程でスポンジに大きな傷が入ってしまうことがある。また、スポンジを焼く「加硫」の段階で、意図せずに気泡以外の部分に空気が入り、スポンジをスライスした時に大きな穴になる「エア不良」も、ラバーの開発では避けて通れない課題だった。
「『テナジー』のトップシートは、ゴムの配合をスポンジに合わせて少し変えていますが、基本的には『ブライス』や『ブライス ハイスピード』の発展版です。ゴムそのものに大きな変更はなく、ツブ形状の違いがポイントになりました。
やはりスポンジの方が開発期間は長くかかりましたね。04年くらいに量産機を導入してスポンジの量産試作を始めましたが、それまでは小さな金型で何度もテストを繰り返しました」（久保）。

2008、テナジー。偶然の必然
https://www.butterfly.co.jp/story/front_runner/vol5_01.html
https://www.butterfly.co.jp/story/front_runner/vol5_02.html
https://www.butterfly.co.jp/story/front_runner/vol5_03.html

「スポンジはトップシートに比べて、かなり生産コストがかかります。なるべく大きく、厚く焼いたものをスライスして、一度に大量に作りたい。でも、そうすると品質にバラつきが出やすくなり、性能がプロトタイプと同じにならないんです」（山崎）
1枚のプロトタイプができたから、材料の分量を50倍にすれば同じものが50枚できるのか。事はそう単純には運ばない。現在の『テナジー』は性能の面ではプロトタイプに近いものだが、スポンジの配合や製造条件は全く違う。
「ゼロからレシピを作るようなものですよ。でも、そこで効いてくるのがプロトタイプを作るために費やした歳月なんです。『こうすれば、こういう結果になる』という試行錯誤の蓄積があるから、量産試作のプロセスも、ある程度は短縮することができます」（山崎）

現在、研究開発チームのマネジャーを務める土屋祐一も、『テナジー』の量産化のノウハウを築く「量産試作」に奮闘した一人だ。
なぜ、スポンジを大量に作ろうとすると、品質が変わってしまうのか。「大量に作ろうとすると、ゴムを練る時、発泡剤などの薬品が均一に混ざりにくくなります。スポンジを焼く段階でも、大きく、厚く焼くほど熱が伝わりにくいので、内側が軟らかく、外側が硬くなりやすいんです」と土屋は言う。「焼く温度や時間、かける圧力などを変えて均一なスポンジを作れたとしても、その時々の温度や季節によってもバラつきが出ます。それを少しずつなくしていくことも必要です」（土屋）。
スポンジは、外側のいわゆる「皮」の部分はかなり硬いが、その内側はほぼ均一な軟らかさになる。しかし、焼くスポンジのサイズが大きくなると、中心部分と外側に近い部分の品質に違いが出てくる。硬度にして5度くらいのバラつきが出ることもあり、量産といえども大きく作り過ぎるわけにはいかない。「量産」と「品質の安定」。この相反する命題に取り組み、最良の製造方法を確立することが、土屋らに課せられた使命だった。

 

[SleepyMaster]

I beat noobies with Butterfly equipment all the time. They are set up with either Timo Boll ALC or Viscaria with either Tenergy or Dignics. I don't know why they spend that much on $400 set-up but it is their choice and their money.

I guess that they just can spend their money on what they want. And if they want to lose with 400$ worth of equipment, I don’t see the reason why losing with 50$ can be better - if you are you still losing. If some one can afford something it shouldn’t be bother you too much. Equipment is not so important as most of amateurs think. Constant training/coaching and competitive environment this what matters most.

For most amateurs it’s just about having fun. Not for win or medals etc. But this amateur term can be very different - I train in with the coach and a circle of amateurs that are playing 4-5 times + tourney every week for 6-12 years with stability and good coaching. They all using tenergy/dignics, viscaria and TB alc. You will have very hard time to play against them “amateurs”.

Last Friday one of older guys that are casually playing in our club asking me for a match, I checked his racket - it was Apolonia zlc d09c both sides. He can’t even go past my serve, but he does enjoy it and was full of fun, while losing 6 sets in a row. Why we should be bother of what racket he is using if he enjoyed every moment while playing it?