Rubber cost

[Snek]

I was just wondering different costs of rubbers. How much is cost of material for one rubber(%)? How much marketing, designing, packaging, shipping etc.? Any examples? Dfference between esn, chinese and japanese rubbers? Difference between brands? I don't know if anyone even knows these things

 

[Sims]

Rubbers are CHEAP!
It's all branding marketing and player sponsorship etc that pushes the price to silly levels and that's the only reason why Butterfly rubbers are $100 etc V Chinese rubbers for $20.

 

[igorponger]

Yeah, billioners would not be happy at a nasal rag sold at 1 pound a piece. This is why those are sold at 500.. in a fashion mall.
Considering inner value is just the same, then a cheaper hanky satisfies me pretty well.
BTW, we enjoy price discount with china sports products, as being a long-term customer.

 

[zeio]

It's actually much more complicated once you look into it.

For ESN, they were in the red for 2022 for the first time in a long time, at least over a decade.

Butterfly revealed once that they couldn't make money with Tenergy for a period of time.

 

[brokenball]

The real cost is in making the dies or molds. This is expensive. All those pips require precision but then a numerically controlled machine does that but that machine costs money. So does the injection molding machine. So the cost isn't in the materials it is the overhead which is the machinery, marketing and shipping.
So to break even on a rubber, one must sell a lot. After a while the molds get worn so a decision must be made if there will be enough demand to make a new mold.

There is some magic to making the sponge. The sponge should have lots of air bubbles of almost uniform size but they shouldn't join together to make voids. It is the air bubbles that are springy, not the sponge itself. Making a good sponge will take some trial and error. The top sheet should be very elastic too.

 

[Doralikesmath]

The real cost is in making the dies or molds. This is expensive. All those pips require precision but then a numerically controlled machine does that but that machine costs money. So does the injection molding machine. So the cost isn't in the materials it is the overhead which is the machinery, marketing and shipping.
So to break even on a rubber, one must sell a lot. After a while the molds get worn so a decision must be made if there will be enough demand to make a new mold.

There is some magic to making the sponge. The sponge should have lots of air bubbles of almost uniform size but they shouldn't join together to make voids. It is the air bubbles that are springy, not the sponge itself. Making a good sponge will take some trial and error. The top sheet should be very elastic too.

Also the R&D cost. For BTY, they probably have like thousands of molds from failed experiments that have value of scalp metals, which costs millions to make.

 

[brokenball]

Also the R&D cost. For BTY, they probably have like thousands of molds from failed experiments that have value of scalp metals, which costs millions to make.

I doubt the molds are designed by trial and error. Making a sponge that is uniform but yet full or air pockets is the trick. Also, top sheets need to be elastic too. This is why I shake my head when I see people wanting hard rubbers. They should be looking for springy rubbers unless they don't care about the trampoline effect.

@Doralikesmath, have you ever modeled a mass on a spring? How about a mass hitting a spring? You need to assume the spring has mass and damping. Try making the spring stiffer. What happens?

 

[Doralikesmath]

I doubt the molds are designed by trial and error. Making a sponge that is uniform but yet full or air pockets is the trick. Also, top sheets need to be elastic too. This is why I shake my head when I see people wanting hard rubbers. They should be looking for springy rubbers unless they don't care about the trampoline effect.

@Doralikesmath, have you ever modeled a mass on a spring? How about a mass hitting a spring? You need to assume the spring has mass and damping. Try making the spring stiffer. What happens?

No, I'm not talking about the molding process. What I mean is the dimensions of the pimples and the topsheet are from trial and error. They did like hundreds of experiments to come up with Tenergy topsheets, and the numbers 05, 64, 80, etc are the last 2 digits of the experiment numbers iirc.
Edit: here is the link with more information https://www.butterfly-global.com/en/product/tenergy/

 

[zeio]

Here is a story from 馮成記/Fung Sing Kee, arguably the world's largest table tennis OEM/ODM/OBM. They wasted millions on rubber production because they didn't know humidity had so much effect on the yield rate. They kept ordering crepe rubber from their supplier in Japan so much that the folks found so puzzling and came over to figure out what was going on and help them to solve it, on the condition that they kept the knowledge to themselves.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

if making table tennis rubbers is that easy (in terms of quality and bottom line-profits making), then why do 90% of the table tennis brands out there don't make (their own) table tennis rubbers.

it's obviously cheaper to outsource to ESN or Daiki, or for hobby bats to "sunflex" in Hong Kong
while, that is not really a profitable solution too, since ESN is making a loss, and has been increasing pricing way too much in recent years.
Overall, I do feel it is a very complicated and costing business to keep a float.
Few companies have failed in recent years and have lost a lot of market share.

 

[Sims]

if making table tennis rubbers is that easy (in terms of quality and bottom line-profits making), then why do 90% of the table tennis brands out there don't make (their own) table tennis rubbers.

it's obviously cheaper to outsource to ESN or Daiki, or for hobby bats to "sunflex" in Hong Kong
while, that is not really a profitable solution too, since ESN is making a loss, and has been increasing pricing way too much in recent years.
Overall, I do feel it is a very complicated and costing business to keep a float.
Few companies have failed in recent years and have lost a lot of market share.

It's cheap because of the Economies of scale.
It stands to reason that if each brand has to have their own plant it would cost each of them more. But the sheets are made in huge bulk in huge factories and everyone saves money this way but butterfly still want $100 for a rubber.
If ESN are making losses it must be because they're not charging the TT brands enough for what they are delivering.
And it is a way way WAY oversaturated market, there must be 1000 different rubbers to choose from whan really there's is no need for more than 100, it's all the same shit disguised behind different packaging and different marketing burble.

Regarding rubber itself, as of February the average global price of rubber was $2 U.S. dollars per kilogram.
The average annual price of natural rubber at the Singapore Commodity Exchange (one of the key global commodity exchanges for rubber) reached a high of 4.82 U.S. dollars per kg in 2011 but in 2023 the average price was 1.58 U.S. dollars per kilogram.
That's why excellent Chinese rubbers in 80g sheets can be bought for between $10-$20.

So $100 for Butterfly rubber (or any other overpriced brand rubbers) is not due to cost of production but branding marketing sponsorship etc.
Of course some rubber blends, r&d, trial and error, distribution, retail Mark up all adds to the price and I get that but $100 for a 80g sheet is $1250 per kilo!!!

From $2 per kilo to cheaper rubbers at $350 per kilo (~$30 a sheet) I get it but at $1000 per kilo, I just can't get my head around that.....

Maybe I'm really missing something in my picture but I still believe they are cheap to produce and way overpriced

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

It's cheap because of the Economies of scale.
It stands to reason that if each brand has to have their own plant it would cost each of them more. But the sheets are made in huge bulk in huge factories and everyone saves money this way but butterfly still want $100 for a rubber.
If ESN are making losses it must be because they're not charging the TT brands enough for what they are delivering.
And it is a way way WAY oversaturated market, there must be 1000 different rubbers to choose from whan really there's is no need for more than 100, it's all the same shit disguised behind different packaging and different marketing burble.

Regarding rubber itself, as of February the average global price of rubber was $2 U.S. dollars per kilogram.
The average annual price of natural rubber at the Singapore Commodity Exchange (one of the key global commodity exchanges for rubber) reached a high of 4.82 U.S. dollars per kg in 2011 but in 2023 the average price was 1.58 U.S. dollars per kilogram.
That's why excellent Chinese rubbers in 80g sheets can be bought for between $10-$20.

So $100 for Butterfly rubber (or any other overpriced brand rubbers) is not due to cost of production but branding marketing sponsorship etc.
Of course some rubber blends, r&d, trial and error, distribution, retail Mark up all adds to the price and I get that but $100 for a 80g sheet is $1250 per kilo!!!

From $2 per kilo to cheaper rubbers at $350 per kilo (~$30 a sheet) I get it but at $1000 per kilo, I just can't get my head around that.....

Maybe I'm really missing something in my picture but I still believe they are cheap to produce and way overpriced

lots of people say this, and the question is, then why no body is becoming table tennis rubber manufactures....
business is a lot more complicated than just using numbers to compared $2 per kilo versus $1000 per kilo
if you can figure it out, then you did what so many others, couldn't

There are huge companies that have failed. I don't believe they don't have the experience or maths calculations skills as what you have.

I'm no fan of Butterfly's pricing strategy, but there is no one else that can compete that isn't in the red

 

[avi3230]

I feel when we are spending our own money, we must think twice. If a thing is costly doesn't mean its very good or best and if its too cheap then quality is worst.
We should look at our playing style, age, movements, skill levels and most importantly where we are playing
just because u can afford a thing doesn't mean u can use it properly.

I used viscaria for two years and in the same price i got yinhe alc special 3 units. Frankly speaking my game is same after playing with yinhe blades.
Same goes with rubbers. I cant play any ESN rubber on my forehand side as I am used to H3.
So even if I can afford I wont buy any butterfly rubbers.

This is my experience.

 

[brokenball]

No, I'm not talking about the molding process. What I mean is the dimensions of the pimples and the topsheet are from trial and error.

The pips are cylindrical. They can only be so high. Thicker pips will not give as much, especially tangentially.
T25 pips are thicker than T05. pips with the same sponge. The T25 pips don't let the top sheet stretch across the suface as much for adding spin.

[quote
They did like hundreds of experiments to come up with Tenergy topsheets, and the numbers 05, 64, 80, etc are the last 2 digits of the experiment numbers iirc.
[/quote]
Why is it T05 instead up T500? They are only up to 80.
One doesn't need to make a whole mold to test pip sizes.
Much can be modeled before making.

As an engineer I would often tell my customers their design was not good, so they didn't need to waste money with the trial and error.

Edit: here is the link with more information https://www.butterfly-global.com/en/product/tenergy/

 

[Sims]

lots of people say this, and the question is, then why no body is becoming table tennis rubber manufactures....
business is a lot more complicated than just using numbers to compared $2 per kilo versus $1000 per kilo
if you can figure it out, then you did what so many others, couldn't

There are huge companies that have failed. I don't believe they don't have the experience or maths calculations skills as what you have.

I'm no fan of Butterfly's pricing strategy, but there is no one else that can compete that isn't in the red

There are large barriers to entry now, capital expenditure, how to compete with the pre-existing massive companies and getting contracts etc. I am sure there is a lot of know-how goes into it also.
But who are the big failed companies you refer to?
After s 27 yr hiatus from TT, returning a few yrs ago, it seems all the companies from the 90s (Stiga, Donic, Butterfly, Yasaka, Nittaku) are still here along with many new ones.
I just assumed that anyone who exited the mkt would have been forced out because huge ESN came along and because they are so big and can do everything cheaper. Meaning they were forced out because one hugely capital backed enterprise decided they wanted to take over the entire market and the smaller companies couldn't compete at the same price per unit. But that doesn't mean rubber is expensive. If my (admittedly assumes) scenario is loosely accurate then rubber remains cheaper per sheet unit....
As I said beforehand, holes in my picture and it's hard to put numbers on the cost of production in Germany V the Chinese companies making good products at very reasonable prices....
So ignoring Butterfly who are the high end outlier in terms of pricing then maybe European ESN prices V Chinese $20 rubbers just reflects cost of production in Germany V China.
Sorry this post is a bit rambling, I'm kinda thinking and writing simultaneously 😂

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

There are large barriers to entry now, capital expenditure, how to compete with the pre-existing massive companies and getting contracts etc. I am sure there is a lot of know-how goes into it also.
But who are the big failed companies you refer to?
After s 27 yr hiatus from TT, returning a few yrs ago, it seems all the companies from the 90s (Stiga, Donic, Butterfly, Yasaka, Nittaku) are still here along with many new ones.

these 5 brands you named,
did they make they own rubbers in the 90s?

 

[Sims]

these 5 brands you named,
did they make they own rubbers in the 90s?

I don't know. I would have assumed so at the time.

 

[rbtitco]

I once read that the Tenergy series was 11 years in R&D. What do we believe the cost of that to be?

 

[Sims]

I would be of the opinion that there is not a regular player anywhere whose game would be worse if they had never bought an overpriced Tenergy rubber. I firmly believe they'd have settled on something for half the price and been just as good at TT.
To me all this marketing drivel from Butterfly is rubbish but if you make it some ppl will like it and others like having the premium rubber and sometimes it's placebo effect. Put it this way, I've seen more players improve from moving away from Butterfly to different (often slower more controled rubbers) than I have seen improve from moving to Butterfly. That's basically the root of my no Butterfly position. 11 yrs incorporates every other rubber they made in that ''11 year's'' plus whatever small change was made to arrive at final Tenergy formula.
Of course I might just be wrong on all of this but I often wonder if pro players would play butterfly if they weren't paid to do so. And I wonder how many international tournament winners play Butterfly rubbers, a very small % I'd guess.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I don't know. I would have assumed so at the time.

well, it is clear you don't know and assume ESN or Daiki just came on recently to make people stop making rubbers because of Economic of scale.

table tennis brand are mere marketing / branding companies with some R&D. I'm replying this so you have an idea, especially with your below statement.

how many brands makes rubbers?
how many brands makes blades?
no body makes clothing - its all in Asia/SEA
who makes balls? only 5 in the world, 3 in China.

So, take Stiga, Donic, Butterfly, Yasaka, Nittaku
rubber? Butterfly makes them own
blade: Butterfly too + Stiga
Yasaka is made by woodhouse
I can't comment on Donic and Nittaku blade
balls... hm.. only Nittaku make them own.

I would be of the opinion that there is not a regular player anywhere whose game would be worse if they had never bought an overpriced Tenergy rubber. I firmly believe they'd have settled on something for half the price and been just as good at TT.
To me all this marketing drivel from Butterfly is rubbish but if you make it some ppl will like it and others like having the premium rubber and sometimes it's placebo effect. Put it this way, I've seen more players improve from moving away from Butterfly to different (often slower more controled rubbers) than I have seen improve from moving to Butterfly. That's basically the root of my no Butterfly position. 11 yrs incorporates every other rubber they made in that ''11 year's'' plus whatever small change was made to arrive at final Tenergy formula.
Of course I might just be wrong on all of this but I often wonder if pro players would play butterfly if they weren't paid to do so. And I wonder how many international tournament winners play Butterfly rubbers, a very small % I'd guess.

since Butterfly make's they own rubber, and for any one with a decent level can tell, Tenergy 05 is no gimmick.
1 rubber can take on a decade of ESN rubbers (about 3 to 5 generations), that is no gimmick too.

we talking about rubber performance and not amateur player performance - because amateur can use anything, and they are still amateur.

for Butterfly, many pros who are not butterfly sponsored, still end up using butterfly and that is no gimmick.
this is both blade and rubbers.
blade one can hide by handle lens, but rubbers, one can't.

So, people know i'm not a fan of Butterfly's pricing, but in terms of rubbers and blade - they make it themselves and have one of the best quality, performance over a long time frame, that no other brand today, can match.
I haven't even discussed price yet.... and that is the crazy part - people are willing to pay premium for premium.

no one in the butterfly supply chain makes money, except for butterfly. hence i'm no fan (i sold butterfly for 2 years).

so.... money spent by the company to make good products? of course.
Else, why can't everyone make they own blades and rubbers?
some brands are really, just a marketing and sales office with a warehouse and everything is outsourced.

you talked about the economic of scale (sound like a business school professor). then why isn't sunflex the top rubber maker in the world successful (you probably haven't even heard of them before)? (the HK company zeio shared). they own the hobby bat market basically with almost every brand oem from them.
they make cheap rubber, low price, low quality, but huge quantity.
i don't see anyone using their "pro range" rubbers, search for Lion and Sunflex rubbers. No one can beat them on volume. But many beat them on quality.