SENSITIVITY - or why is its absence problematic when posting on the web!

[jawien]

I was also off by taking it too seriously and providing my "deep" analysis about Asia domination and so on ...

Of course Passifid, it was basically just a "pointless remark about names".

Feel embarrassed overall, were is my whiskey ...

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I am not going to come down on either side. But I will say that it seems that there has been some insensitivity from both sides. Whatever the actual issue being discussed I think, perhaps the escalation of events has more to do with misreadings and misunderstandings than some may be acknowledging.

Here:

Hey, congratulations. This is actually the only appropriate reaction which i actually was expecting or rather hoping for from Michal.

This was said in response to the statement: "...I really didn't think it can be interpreted that way. If it is offensive I'll apologize to the offended party."

But, as I read his first response---the one quoted in post number 2 of this thread--Michal did say: "So if you are mad at me - sorry about that...."

So I think it could be that the situation simply escalated because people were not hearing each other well.

So lets see if we can find some common ground with this sport we all love. Instead of letting a subject like this eat away at our happiness.

I think it is fair that sometimes race, nationality and gender may need to be discussed with more sensitivity.

But when someone tries to apologize, lets give them the benefit of the doubt if they say they didn't mean what was heard.

When someone accidentally says something that can be construed as insulting, but did not mean to insult anyone, shouldn't we be empathetic and hear what they say they actually meant and give them the benefit of the doubt. We can still point out that:

"....Zhang....Yue....Wang....this would be second China playing the world cup...."

is easy to interpret as racist, and, for some, may even be hard to interpret any other way. But, we have to realize that if he said something that could offend, but he did not mean to offend, then, his INTENTIONS may be the more important factor on the subject.

So, thank you for winding the subject down. Hopefully in a day or two the subject will not seem to be such a big issue.

 

[Baal]

I for one get where Suga is coming from. And sometimes these unpleasant threads are necessary.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I for one get where Suga is coming from. And sometimes these unpleasant threads are necessary.

I get where he is coming from as well. But I feel the escalation on both sides, may have been avoided.

 

[Baal]

I get where he is coming from as well. But I feel the escalation on both sides, may have been avoided.

Yes. That too.

 

[Suga D]

Well, one positive thing is that this unfortunate offtopic discussion in the WTC thread has stopped.
And if only one single person would think about his words before posting, then it was totally worth it.

But what i have to admit, i'm unhappy that the Impression came up that this is a personal thing between Michal and me. It's not. In fact i like many of his posted vids but the insulting comments i could do without! That's all there is to it.

But i would have written and done the same if these insultings would have come from USDCarl (quite sure he wouldn't make such kinda statements, but still...) or anybody else. So it's really nothing personal even if it might look different.

And fellas, one more time, pls don't try lecturing others what is insulting and what isn't. Everyone is different and everyone might feel different about this. By doing so you are belittleling the person's ability to decide for himself what is insulting to him/her and what isn't and that just can't be right! Period.

Anyway....
If the mods think this thread was over the top then delete it or let it fade out and die, but if only one single person would start to avoid making insulting comments then i'd be glad. After all, all we got here is the written word. So if the language used by politicians gets rougher and harsher constantly we the people don't need to follow that trend and instead should try create a balance with more empathy and understanding of each other.

So que sera, sera. Either way, i'm fine with it.

Edit: Carl, you're spot on again. In fact i really overread that apology and of course i will accept it and therefore would have to apologize myself.
But again: just cause something isn't done purposely doesn't make it better anyhow. I can't punch someone in his face and say: "i thought you were tougher"

My dad has taught me:
don't be sorry just be careful.
I think this also applies for words.

[Emoji2]

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Suga, I get that, for you, the big subject is racism, or, maybe RACISM. And often it happens that people don't even realize they are being racist when THEY ARE!

And it is an important subject.

I remember, this add from the 1970s. It was a grandfather and grandson in a boat talking. The grandson says something about the grandfather being prejudiced. The grandfather says he is not. The grandson starts talking about one of his friends. The grandfather says: "Who is Jonny, is he your colored friend."

And the point of the commercial was that Jonny was the kids friend and the color of his skin should not have mattered. And that racism can be unexamined and people can demonstrate racist views without even being conscious of the fact.

So, I do get where you are coming from. And yes, this falls into that category. But, I think, in addressing the issue, perhaps the fire got in the way.

 

[safumin]

I am glad I read this thread, thank you.

 

[jawien]

Ok, nice work Carl. You know how to step in. No more comments from me.

"Let's say Goon Squad won that round ... but next time we'll see ..."
; )

 

[Baal]

The Goon squad. Highly sensitive goons.

 

[Michal_Z]

Especially on an international tabletennis forum where you only have words or maybe short vids to get to know people and rather rarely get to know people personally.
So if all you have is the word of a person better make sure it isn't insulting. You simply just gotta be a little more careful and watch out what you post. Simple as that.

Lastly it's always easy to claim other people are overly sensitive when one isn't the one who's feeling victimized.
But i would rather find it interesting how guys like Allen Wang, or Fan Bo Meng see this here.

In fact, if you look at literature about this topic and follow social media you will easily see that your reaction is the standard reaction by people talking about or even defending racism. You will find a lot of: "don't be so sensitive" or "get over it, it wasn't meant so, or it's already long time ago". Those are pretty much the typical answers people receive when pointing out racism.

Now let me ask you: if i accidentally kick you in your balls, and my reaction was like: "don't be so sensitive" or "Oops, i didn't mean it", would those be the kinda words that you would like to hear? Will these kinda words ease your pain?

I'm quite sure that would be the opposite you would like to hear in that situation.

Yet you do the same to others.
At least you did with some of your comments to me and probably to others.


I am glad you are now seeing my apology. And I will accept your unspoken apology.


I did think I made it clear - that I was sorry if I hurt your feelings or anyones, which was not my intention.


I do wish the top players on my country’s national team were actually from Slovakia. However, I did not mean to make this about race.


So all I am left with is - please, do not get mad at me anyone. Do not get hurt, do not take offense at my words. I did not mean things the way they were understood.


Thank you.

 

[Brs]

There's a cultural difference between nations with a more homogenous population and the US. So it's easy to misunderstand each other because we are thinking from such different frames.

In the US the discussion has recently become more charged and toxic again (as it has also in some european countries) because some people have decided they are "real americans" which obviously means some others are "false americans." This is all bullshit, but it has a lot of very real consequences.

If you use length of time in the geographical area of the nation as the criteria for legitimacy, then the "realest" americans are indians, descendants of mexicans who lived in the vast area we occupied and annexed by war, and descendants of african slaves. Needless to say, that is not the criteria the so-called real americans apply to themselves.

It makes perfect sense for a Slovakian to say that an ethnic chinese person is not "slovakian" because they think from a frame where "slovakian" means certain things that have a basis in the truth of their history. America is not like that, but some people are trying to create a frame based on ethnic homogeneity that is completely ahistorical and in fact an inversion of history. If you know much US history, (which as a Slovakian there is no reason Michal should, as almost no Americans know their history that is not taught), you will have a different frame to view how an american of chinese ancestry might take offense at the comments that kicked off this whole row.

Google chinese exclusion act if you want to learn some US history they didn't get around to teaching in high school. Or if that's all in the past and doesn't matter today, consider the way elite universities discriminate against asian applicants, requiring a higher standard for them than a comparable white applicant, in order to not be "too asian."

I'm not particularly taking sides in this, just trying to get both to see how we talk past each other all the time when we stick to the frames that we are used to thinking in, and how we can learn a lot with an open mind and a discussion that pre-supposes good will on both sides (not always the case in life, but very likely on this forum).

I would be interested to know more about Slovakians, how they view their history and national character. It was a sub-unit within a sub-unit as part of Czechoslovakia and part of the Warsaw Pact, so I wonder if Michal lived through all three of those national statuses, which would be an interesting (if not necessarily happy or good) experience that as an american I cannot really imagine. Before that Slovaks must have been subsumed in the multinational austro-hungarian empire for a few centuries, and were probably a small minority population compared to germans and magyars. So all that history is ingrained in the frames Michal thinks and speaks and posts with today.

Shutting down the conversation as too difficult and painful for all involved is better than fighting and gaining no understanding. But I hope we could all realize that by shutting it down we are giving up the opportunity to have a much more complicated conversation where we might all learn a lot of things that we otherwise never could. It is sort of a shame to take a community of interesting, intelligent people from all over the world and use it to discuss tenergy alternatives or whether Harimoto chos too loud.

 

[jawien]

There's a cultural difference between nations with a more homogenous population and the US. [...]

Now Brs where have you been ?! Hiding there in your Island?

I mean you just gained my true admiration, the way you described how "national identity" will differ for US Americans and Slovakians in this case. I'm sure Suga and Michal were using those different frameworks, hence why I believe they couldn't really understand each other nor "hear" properly.

When I wrote before: "I'm not and expert in neither (history, sociology), I'm afraid I don't have proper words and knowledge to deal with this delicate matter." I was actually hoping for someone like you to step in and setup a proper basis for the eventual discussion, for which I'm all for in now!!

I'll be happy also, to read Michal's comment first if he wishes to reply, and be more than happy to discuss the Asia dominance in this context. Maybe you'll have a fresh perspective from the US point of view.

I must say I particulary like your comment about how bunch of interesting / intelligent people does nothing here, but create those countless mutations of threads about tenergy alternatives ... ha ha ; )

And tt community consists of rather interesting and educated people. As it happens here in Cracow (Nauru is rather my wish Country ) I have two tt friends, one is a historian and the other one is a radio host guy from ... Slovakia. He used to create programs for Slovakian minority in Poland. I'll see if I can make them join this forum or at least have their opinion. Would be an interesting one.

My Best, J.

 

[Baal]

BRS just raised a key point and it is an especially big issue in those US cities where there is a lot of TT (like mine). But it is not just the US. Some of these issues have emerged in e.g. Germany, and I know Suga personally. So again I will just say I know where he is coming from. Others should not take that to mean that I am attacking them.

But the good thing is people here do tend to be willing to get out of their comfort zone without really losing all trace of civility and it is a good thing.

 

[OrienteTT]

Try not to be so offended everytime someone has a diferent opinion than you.

 

[zeio]

I was gonna stay out of this, but since Brs mentioned Chinese Exclusion Act:

Hopefully, I will live to see the day the US follows the example of its neighbor. Even though Obama didn't do it, there is hope for the TV reality president.

BTW, the news today says the Party will make some changes to the constitution so that Xi Jinping will be able to serve as president at least another term. Trump or whoever next will be stuck with him in the foreseeable future.

 

[talbon]

Brs makes a very valid point. Harimoto chos too loud.

 

[Mtcollins]

A newfie's wife passed away and he called 911. The 911 operator told him that they would send someone over right away and asked him where he lived. "At the end of Eucalyptus Drive," the newfie told her. The operator asked, "Could you please spell that for me?" After a long pause, the newfie said, "How 'bout if I drag her over to Oak Street and you pick her up there?"

 

[Suga D]

Try not to be so offended everytime someone has a diferent opinion than you.

Now if this was referring to me i would have to let you know that racism is not an OPINION - racism is against the law therefore is seen as a CRIME.
At least in Germany. It's written in the first paragraph of our 'constitution' (actually it is Grundgesetz)

There's a cultural difference between nations with a more homogenous population and the US. So it's easy to misunderstand each other because we are thinking from such different frames.

In the US the discussion has recently become more charged and toxic again (as it has also in some european countries) because some people have decided they are "real americans" which obviously means some others are "false americans." This is all bullshit, but it has a lot of very real consequences.

If you use length of time in the geographical area of the nation as the criteria for legitimacy, then the "realest" americans are indians, descendants of mexicans who lived in the vast area we occupied and annexed by war, and descendants of african slaves. Needless to say, that is not the criteria the so-called real americans apply to themselves.

It makes perfect sense for a Slovakian to say that an ethnic chinese person is not "slovakian" because they think from a frame where "slovakian" means certain things that have a basis in the truth of their history. America is not like that, but some people are trying to create a frame based on ethnic homogeneity that is completely ahistorical and in fact an inversion of history. If you know much US history, (which as a Slovakian there is no reason Michal should, as almost no Americans know their history that is not taught), you will have a different frame to view how an american of chinese ancestry might take offense at the comments that kicked off this whole row.

Google chinese exclusion act if you want to learn some US history they didn't get around to teaching in high school. Or if that's all in the past and doesn't matter today, consider the way elite universities discriminate against asian applicants, requiring a higher standard for them than a comparable white applicant, in order to not be "too asian."

I'm not particularly taking sides in this, just trying to get both to see how we talk past each other all the time when we stick to the frames that we are used to thinking in, and how we can learn a lot with an open mind and a discussion that pre-supposes good will on both sides (not always the case in life, but very likely on this forum).

I would be interested to know more about Slovakians, how they view their history and national character. It was a sub-unit within a sub-unit as part of Czechoslovakia and part of the Warsaw Pact, so I wonder if Michal lived through all three of those national statuses, which would be an interesting (if not necessarily happy or good) experience that as an american I cannot really imagine. Before that Slovaks must have been subsumed in the multinational austro-hungarian empire for a few centuries, and were probably a small minority population compared to germans and magyars. So all that history is ingrained in the frames Michal thinks and speaks and posts with today.

Shutting down the conversation as too difficult and painful for all involved is better than fighting and gaining no understanding. But I hope we could all realize that by shutting it down we are giving up the opportunity to have a much more complicated conversation where we might all learn a lot of things that we otherwise never could. It is sort of a shame to take a community of interesting, intelligent people from all over the world and use it to discuss tenergy alternatives or whether Harimoto chos too loud.

Thanks a lot for your very insightful post. If you were negotiator for the UN then I'm quite sure that there soon would be no more wars.

Posts like yours make me believe again that there is still hope left for humanity. After all maybe this thread isn't as useless as some would like to try to make me think.

Did i already say thanks a lot?

I will try to pick up this thread from your last sentence and see if we can take this beyond Tenergy alternatives and Harimoto choing and see if i can understand Michal and other people that think alike, ' cause until now i am absolutely unable to do so.

Baal really understands where i'm coming from and to give more people the chance to understand why i have so much problems to understand this kind of thinking i will try to explain myself more.
I promise i will try to not get too emotional.

Yet you do the same to others.
At least you did with some of your comments to me and probably to others.


I am glad you are now seeing my apology. And I will accept your unspoken apology.


I did think I made it clear - that I was sorry if I hurt your feelings or anyones, which was not my intention.


I do wish the top players on my country’s national team were actually from Slovakia. However, I did not mean to make this about race.


So all I am left with is - please, do not get mad at me anyone. Do not get hurt, do not take offense at my words. I did not mean things the way they were understood.


Thank you.

Hey Michal,

really glad you came to this thread and took a stand and not let Jawien do all the defense and take all my thunder.

However:
I think it really takes "cojones" to do this and not play the hurt victim or how we say in German die beleidigte Leberwurscht, so honestly props for that.

I like to apologize for not seeing your apology and for any name calling while i was calling out what seemed to be to me some irrational racist bullsh*t. I guess if i would have seen it earlier then my posts would have had a different twist.

To help you understand me better:
As others have said, in the last years the usage of disrespectful and even racist language by insensitive people has been rising, and many hateful posts on social media started getting more and more.

Strangely the people makin these posts often misunderstand if people don't react on these provocations as some sort of silent agreement, whereas most people actually just tried to ignore such posts.

So i had developed a very sharp BS-detector. If you know a little bit of German history you should understand that in my case it can be a life saver in some areas.

To not sound overly dramatic i will try to give a little more Information about myself. I'll try to make it short:

As a son of a German father and a Southafrican mother i actually was confronted with racism before i even was born, because my parents had to flee from Apartheid in Capetown and they first fled to California where i was born. If racism or Apartheid wouldn't exist i most likely would have been born in Capetown.
Long story short: after about five years we moved to Germany.

Now when i was small i didn't understand what racism is neither did i know about German history. But after a while i made my experiences. A lot of old thinking still was stuck in old heads and trying to poison the youth.
So i know quite well being looked at as somebody that can't be what some think is a real German and that guys like me don't belong to a group or actually shouldn't even be there (no matter my German passport) by people that sounded pretty much like you.
Sometimes it was rather subtile, and sometimes not.

I hope this has been understandable so far.

Nobody asked me if i wanted that kind of experience and probably I could have also done very well without it.

But i don't want to sound bitter. I've also received a lot of love and understanding by German people. Mostly by women. Guys often started developing some kind of jealousy.

Anyhow now as a grown man i can stand over what i would call irrational thinking, but having a child made me develop some strong sort of protectionism by not wanting my kid making same experiences as me.

So please understand why i respond very allergic to irrational racist bullsh*t.

Besides, it can be a total killer for an international tabletennis forum if people think that racist speech is tolerated, since that might people stay away and sponsors might lose Interest because of less traffic. You can't imagine how many german companies had to drive massive promotional campaigns and whitewashing cause people found out about some strange connections.
The licquor brand Jägermeister was one of them.

I do have three hypothetical questions and it would be kind if you would answer those to help me understand your way of thinking.

By saying/writing you didn't mean to make this a matter of race, but on the other hand you do want that your Nations top players should be originally coming from your country it lastly all still boils down to races or how is this supposed to be understood.
No offense but to me this sounds totally contradictive and irrational.
Now, where would you then draw your line?

Here comes the hypothetical part:
Let's say the daughter of Thommy Keinath and his slovakian wife Iveta would become your country's female Harimoto and would be one of if not your best player. Would you accept her representing and playing for your country?

Now let's spin this a little further and exchange Thommy and Iveta and let's say Wang Yang would marry a slovakian woman and had a child with her. Would you want their child to represent your country and play for the National team?

At the end of the day the easiest 'solution' for you was if your Alex Valuchs and others get better and better and get so good that guys like Thommy and Yang are no option anymore. Don't ya think?

 

[jawien]

[...] Hey Michal,
really glad you came to this thread and took a stand and not let Jawien do all the defense and take all my thunder. [...]

Just a short note.

Sorry Suga if I was maybe too rough while explaining the un-necessity of this thread. I was just afraid it might take a form of a duel between you and Michal and partially me. I had no idea how to disarm such a potential "bomb", so I would rather shut it down.

Brs showed it to be otherwise in a remarkable way!

Also ... thank you personally for sharing your life history. I can say, now I understand so much better where you are coming from too.