Short Pips both sides...

[driversbeat]

Speed is at a premium at the top levels and as crazy as it sounds to most people, the fastest and most consistent surface is inverted rubber. The reason why Ito is evidence is that her style hit a massive wall when others adapted to it. She hasn't beaten a top opponent who trains against her style since her hey day

I think in principle you are right that a player could be top 100 as a two sided pips hitter. The issue is that just about everyone would consider that a waste of talent. Even the Chinese switched to double inverted in the 38mm era when their best inverted shakehand players started beating their pips out penholders.

Of course Ryu Seungmin existed as a one sided penholder playing at the top level. Yoshida Kaii still plays well in European leagues. So I don't doubt you that it is possible for a talent to play any style at the top level. They would just consider it a waste of talent. Even now, it is extremely hard to find a single non-defensive male player using short pips on their backhand in the top 100! And that is focusing on only one side. Could you get a few because of stylistic diversity? Yes. But choppers struggle to be the best players in their country because of how easy they are to beat by teammates at their same level.

So yes. A player with that style could do well. But coaches would be accused of wasting talent without a good reason to justify playing that style.

Just wanted to add a point about maximizing potential. For me, Ito's temperament and body type are a perfect match for her style. Hirano's slightly taller and already gets her reach exploited so Ito will have an even harder time trying to stay in the rallies with double inverted. If anything, she's probably the best candidate for double short pips since she barely top spins. At the end of the day very few players will benefit from short pips but not everyone will, and for club level any style will work as long as you can play out what that style was intended for.

 

[NextLevel]

Just wanted to add a point about maximizing potential. For me, Ito's temperament and body type are a perfect match for her style. Hirano's slightly taller and already gets her reach exploited so Ito will have an even harder time trying to stay in the rallies with double inverted. If anything, she's probably the best candidate for double short pips since she barely top spins. At the end of the day very few players will benefit from short pips but not everyone will, and for club level any style will work as long as you can play out what that style was intended for.

Let's remember that even amongst inverted rubbers, there was a time when the world and Olympic champion only used DHS or Butterfly or some combination of both. ESN has reduced the gap now, but it still exists a tiny bit.

I personally would prefer a return to something like hardbat in order to make the game more uniform and to reduce the overwhelming impact of spin on the game. I would probably suck more at it, but the game would be more sensible to more people and likely more marketable as well.

With Ito, you are right but there are other opinions and arguments. Maybe with some kind of inverted on her backhand, she can still do similar things but with more consistency but maybe less dead balls. I suspect the primary reason she uses pips is more because of Fukuhara's legacy than any major advantage and when you evolve a certain way, it places limits on your future because even when you try to radically change, you are influenced by what you have experienced before. And then sometimes, you just want to make your style work out of pride and enjoyment, not because it is how you play best per se. Table tennis is very complicated.

Even at my lower level, the number of times I have been told to or considered switching to pips might surprise you. But for a long time, my best stroke against some players was my backhand topspin. And against other players it was forehand topspin. And at this point, I enjoy playing with spin so playing better or worse with something else isn't a serious consideration at the moment at least on rubbers,

Pro athletes other than the pressures of making money and achieving goals that affect their livelihood go through the same processes. And it is rarely cut and dried unless you know all the details.

I mean look at Batra and Akula. Did the coach really look at anything about the players before determining their styles? Pips are just more common in India.

 

[driversbeat]

Let's remember that even amongst inverted rubbers, there was a time when the world and Olympic champion only used DHS or Butterfly or some combination of both. ESN has reduced the gap now, but it still exists a tiny bit.

I personally would prefer a return to something like hardbat in order to make the game more uniform and to reduce the overwhelming impact of spin on the game. I would probably suck more at it, but the game would be more sensible to more people and likely more marketable as well.

With Ito, you are right but there are other opinions and arguments. Maybe with some kind of inverted on her backhand, she can still do similar things but with more consistency but maybe less dead balls. I suspect the primary reason she uses pips is more because of Fukuhara's legacy than any major advantage and when you evolve a certain way, it places limits on your future because even when you try to radically change, you are influenced by what you have experienced before. And then sometimes, you just want to make your style work out of pride and enjoyment, not because it is how you play best per se. Table tennis is very complicated.

Even at my lower level, the number of times I have been told to or considered switching to pips might surprise you. But for a long time, my best stroke against some players was my backhand topspin. And against other players it was forehand topspin. And at this point, I enjoy playing with spin so playing better or worse with something else isn't a serious consideration at the moment at least on rubbers,

Pro athletes other than the pressures of making money and achieving goals that affect their livelihood go through the same processes. And it is rarely cut and dried unless you know all the details.

I mean look at Batra and Akula. Did the coach really look at anything about the players before determining their styles? Pips are just more common in India.

I never really understood the comparisons between Fukuhara and Ito, especially since the latter branched off and developed her own style post 2016. Fukuhara plays with a material closer to long pips and tried to play a more spinny forehand albeit to limited effect, and her CNT doppelganger He Zhoujia is clearly a completely different player from Ito.

I still don't think Ito would be as successful punching with inverted simply because there's no one doing this at the moment (Adriana is more of a one shot kill than a rallying backhand), but as pointed out earlier in this discussion you'll never know. I'd say that physicality aside personality also plays a big part in equipment affinity. During her peak Ito said something along the lines of wanting to prove that you can succeed with pips even though everyone around her was said they were obsolete, and it takes a special kind of stubbornness to do that at her level. He Zhoujia has also mentioned that he finds playing with long pips fun and interesting.

I'm not sure about India but I'm almost 100% certain that the Mukherjee girls and even Batra/Akula wouldn't have achieved their current successes with double inverted simply because none of them besides Batra has the physicality to do so.

 

[ejprinz]

I think the long pips backhand "novelty" still works, see the Kim Kum Yong vs. Sun Yingsha game at the 27th ATTC. Kim and Mima have similar heights, and Kim's long pips are more dangerous than Mima's short pips. Play is similar to He Zhoujia. So at that level for a little bit one could compete as a woman with special long pips because the contrast to inverted is larger than with short pips which (with sponge) are actually close to an old inverted rubber. Mima has evolved a little bit but Kim has evolved the game more. And she is not even twiddling like Manika.
Mima just lost against Satsuki Odo in Montpellier, so she needs to either go inverted or long pips on the backhand.
In the men's game you can always flat hit with inverted but you can't heavily spin with short pips, so you lose options which you can't afford at the top. At my level this is a very different game so people can be creative with anything allowed by the rules.

 

[tabletennismaniac]

viper, you are from a table tennis tiny country. your view there is hardly what is happening in the world, especially of that of table tennis power houses

let me put Taiwan as an example.
they want to keep defenders and penholders alive, so the federation, over a decade ago set a rule, for schools (teams) taking part in elementary (grass root) teams tournament, the team entry prerequisite requires to have atleast a defender or a penholder that is on the playing roster.

Due to that, it forces coaches to develop these near extinct styles.
There is way more defenders than penholders though, but together, there are probably hundreds to over a thousand in the system today that was "forced change".

Now, I'm talking 20~30 hours training in elementary school from grade 3 onwards.

how many survive when they hit 13? and then 15?
not many

why?
well, they get beaten by double inverted shakehand players and are not good enough to continue, as it is a pyramid structure of up or out.

yes, strong ones do come through and I happen to know most of them. Including one of them I am sending to Europe in a months time to play league.
But they will never be top 200 in the world, yet along top 100
if you even know what is top 100, you will not even have a hypothetical scenario on top 100 and with such fundamental flaws. If you had 1 side SP, that is still a more realistic scenario. Why don't you ask Tintin why she doesn't use SP on both sides, or Falck?

Even though I completely agree that it’s not possible to compete at the highest mens levels with sort pimples on both sides anymore, your attitude towards OP is really annoying.
Let me just remind you that on mens side England is bronze medalists of WTTC 2016 and Taiwan has 2 bronze medals from recent years (2014 and 2024). You probably don’t want me to compare all time results (I agree they are irrelevant to current game) from these 2 nations.
It’s not that Taiwan is dominating table tennis scene, so stay humble.
And I know you are sending players to Europe - saving you some time, so you don’t have to type it

 

[ViperTableTennis]

Waiting for op to actually walk his big talk
Because he is a parent of a uk junior champion, he must be right!

Tony, I really have no idea what you're going on about now. What "big talk"??? I've not made any big/bold claims on this thread, and I certainly haven't suggested that just because my daughter is a national champion that that gives me any extra credibility...the only reason I even mentioned it was because you implied that I was just a hobby player disconnected from the 'elite' level of the sport.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

your attitude towards OP is really annoying.

Thanks for noticing!

 

[NextLevel]

I never really understood the comparisons between Fukuhara and Ito, especially since the latter branched off and developed her own style post 2016. Fukuhara plays with a material closer to long pips and tried to play a more spinny forehand albeit to limited effect, and her CNT doppelganger He Zhoujia is clearly a completely different player from Ito.

I still don't think Ito would be as successful punching with inverted simply because there's no one doing this at the moment (Adriana is more of a one shot kill than a rallying backhand), but as pointed out earlier in this discussion you'll never know. I'd say that physicality aside personality also plays a big part in equipment affinity. During her peak Ito said something along the lines of wanting to prove that you can succeed with pips even though everyone around her was said they were obsolete, and it takes a special kind of stubbornness to do that at her level. He Zhoujia has also mentioned that he finds playing with long pips fun and interesting.

I'm not sure about India but I'm almost 100% certain that the Mukherjee girls and even Batra/Akula wouldn't have achieved their current successes with double inverted simply because none of them besides Batra has the physicality to do so.

.So look at Odo. Would you seriously argue that there is sufficient difference in talent between Odo, Hirano and Ito that justifies their equipment choices? Or is it more likely that they just evolved into doing what they do? In fact Odo recently opted for a more offensive playing style under the guidance of her new coach.

One of the stories I remember is Danny Seemiller being told he held the racket incorrectly but that he wanted to make his style work and prove people wrong (he actually weote about this in his book). It is also obvious that Tomokazu Harimoto's game has technical issues but there is clearly an attempt to prove he can play his close to the table style on his own terms. So without details, it is easy to form reasonable stories about all these things. That's my main point, not so much that I think you are wrong.

On the physicality od the Indian girls, I very much disagree. But that is a story for another time.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Even though I completely agree that it’s not possible to compete at the highest mens levels with sort pimples on both sides anymore, your attitude towards OP is really annoying.
Let me just remind you that on mens side England is bronze medalists of WTTC 2016 and Taiwan has 2 bronze medals from recent years (2014 and 2024). You probably don’t want me to compare all time results (I agree they are irrelevant to current game) from these 2 nations.
It’s not that Taiwan is dominating table tennis scene, so stay humble.
And I know you are sending players to Europe - saving you some time, so you don’t have to type it

Taiwan youth circuit is the main point here
Op is a England champion dad remember

So because he doesn’t see it in England means there is no one doing something other than double inverted? Sounds to me that is what he is trying to say.

His mind is set like a rock. No one can make suggestions.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Tony, I really have no idea what you're going on about now. What "big talk"??? I've not made any big/bold claims on this thread, and I certainly haven't suggested that just because my daughter is a national champion that that gives me any extra credibility...the only reason I even mentioned it was because you implied that I was just a hobby player disconnected from the 'elite' level of the sport.

Big talk of double SP making world top 100
Since you are able to be in that space to connect with the world elite, you can find your own answers for sure

 

[joshmak10]

Let me just make this plain and simple without any of the bullshit arguing happening in this thread:

The men’s game focuses on power with strong topspin being favoured over any other shot. It’s too difficult to generate any topspin with pips. Therefore there is a reason why Falck is dropping like a rock in the WR and hence more men choose double inverted.

Women’s game favours speed generally which is why short pips is still around on the women’s side. But even the women are transitioning toward the men’s game, and players like Ito, Kihara, Zhang Rui etc. are getting beaten far too easily by the men’s game esque players like Sha Sha. WMY, Miwa etc

 

[ViperTableTennis]

Big talk of double SP making world top 100
Since you are able to be in that space to connect with the world elite, you can find your own answers for sure

Except that it wasn't "big talk", was it! What I did was make a tentative speculation that maybe a double SP player could break into the men's top 100 if more juniors were seriously training in that style. And from the outset I openly admitted that my speculation might be incorrect.

I've said this on more than one occasion now, but I have no idea why you are trying to misrepresent what I have said. Maybe it's not deliberate on your part; perhaps English isn't your first language and something is being lost in translation. In English the phrase "big talk" means to talk in an over-confident or boasting manner. But I've not done any of that; my speculation has always been tentative. In English tentative means 'not certain' or 'provisional' etc (i.e. the opposite of having a mind fixed like a rock!)

And even in terms of my daughter, I only mentioned her in this thread to confirm that I do have contact with some of the best coaches in the UK and that I do understand the elite level coaching set-up in the UK, and that I'm not just some church-hall hobby player with no connection to the serious side of the game. I wish I hadn't mentioned her at all now, though, because that appears to have just motivated your to want to have a pissing contest about world table tennis and point out how relatively week the UK players are on the world stage.

You've treated me unfairly in this thread, and I'm not the only person to have noticed it.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

Let me just make this plain and simple without any of the bullshit arguing happening in this thread:

The men’s game focuses on power with strong topspin being favoured over any other shot. It’s too difficult to generate any topspin with pips. Therefore there is a reason why Falck is dropping like a rock in the WR and hence more men choose double inverted.

Women’s game favours speed generally which is why short pips is still around on the women’s side. But even the women are transitioning toward the men’s game, and players like Ito, Kihara, Zhang Rui etc. are getting beaten far too easily by the men’s game esque players like Sha Sha. WMY, Miwa etc

I don't disagree with any of that. I have never suggested that double SP would be a superior style to double inverted. My speculation was whether double SP could be good enough to get into the top 100 if more people were seriously training in it. Falck may well be on the decline, but he is still comfortably inside the top 100 ranking which is the "benchmark" that I set-up in my speculation. So whereas you might view Falck as failing (and blame it on his use of SP's), strictly in the context of my hypothesis he would be viewed as positive evidence (aside from the fact he's not a double SP player, of course, but I mean in terms of his ability to get inside the top 100 with a style of play that is deemed inferior).

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

a single swallow does not a summer make. Falck is an outlier so to speak.

 

[PhoenixTT]

Something on the topic of double short pips has been discussed a few years ago.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/double-short-pips.24901/

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Except that it wasn't "big talk", was it! What I did was make a tentative speculation that maybe a double SP player could break into the men's top 100 if more juniors were seriously training in that style. And from the outset I openly admitted that my speculation might be incorrect.

and you think no juniors are out there, because of you and your connections inside England?

I've said this on more than one occasion now, but I have no idea why you are trying to misrepresent what I have said. Maybe it's not deliberate on your part; perhaps English isn't your first language and something is being lost in translation. In English the phrase "big talk" means to talk in an over-confident or boasting manner. But I've not done any of that; my speculation has always been tentative. In English tentative means 'not certain' or 'provisional' etc (i.e. the opposite of having a mind fixed like a rock!)

maybe you right and maybe from my side of the world, we do have problems with parents who know nothing about the sport, tend to want to be in control of how coaches coach, or rather, they think they know more than the coaches. So maybe that linking didn't help my interpretation of you.

I have said double SP, don't waste your time, it has been tested (1 side SP) and impossible to succeed, since so many of them are filtered out (meaning, not good enough to make a name for themselves)

If double inverted is 10 then double sp is 100 difficult to succeed, maybe even 500 to 1000.
post 10 shows you have your own logic and can't accept what I am saying because if your experience on the topic.

And even in terms of my daughter, I only mentioned her in this thread to confirm that I do have contact with some of the best coaches in the UK and that I do understand the elite level coaching set-up in the UK, and that I'm not just some church-hall hobby player with no connection to the serious side of the game. I wish I hadn't mentioned her at all now, though, because that appears to have just motivated your to want to have a pissing contest about world table tennis and point out how relatively week the UK players are on the world stage.

because there isn't much juniors in England and that is a fact. there is nothing to piss about or hide. It is a truth that we all know.

you mentioned what you don't see, but have you thought about looking out and see in other countries. That could change your stance of if "only more coaches would" or "more training would" and "I only see", or the "coaches only want double inverted" etc.

I guess you are right about not seeing it in England, other than Tin tin, when last do you have a non inverted player? maybe pip training are poor because of lack of resources? or is it lack of players?

So you talk about England, I talk about Taiwan where non inverted is actually common and in U9 to U13 girls, you probably have more other rubber used compared with double inverted. Between U13 to U15, many weak players will leave semi pro and turn TT to become hobby (so 30 hours a week becomes maybe 6 hours a week) and that is out of our "stats". To the ones remaining, you would see double inverted go higher in ratio, and at the next age group it will be more evident.
Taiwan has plenty of knowledge and training in SP.

maybe if you look beyond England, you could understand development of pips better. See the strength and weaknesses. and with such, you could have "educated" guesses, than just sitting back and being totally distance from SP and trying to talk about if only more training happens.

If you understand the limitations of SP, you will realize double SP is like a igor joke.

and then it becomes like I'm trying to debate sushi with a Japanese chef, and I don't eat fish for example. And then start blasting replies to state my case about fish. Imagine you become the Japanese chef. you will think i am crazy, right?

anyways, you and I will probably never see double sp, because it is just too difficult to make happen and it has nothing to do with efforts or hours of training put in.
If you want to try and make it happen ,then sponsor some kids to make it happen and I can arrange that and see how far they go.
otherwise, be me like, believe it is a waste of time and money as SP has too much limitations based on today's table tennis.

Funny how people are calling Ito to remove our SP and then someone like you talking about double sided SP.
Ito is a good enough example on the SP game.
Falck too have similar traits and if it wasn't for his strong inverted, he would be unknown to all of us.

 

[haggisv]

My speculation was whether double SP could be good enough to get into the top 100 if more people were seriously training in it. Falck may well be on the decline, but he is still comfortably inside the top 100 ranking which is the "benchmark" that I set-up in my speculation.

I don't see that having SP on one side is evidence that double SP is viable at the elite level. SP on one side can offer some advantages because it offers contrast (between the two sides) and different options of shots. Double SP does not offer either of these, which is why I agree with others that it's likely simply inferior to double inverted at the elite levels.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

.So look at Odo. Would you seriously argue that there is sufficient difference in talent between Odo, Hirano and Ito that justifies their equipment choices? Or is it more likely that they just evolved into doing what they do? In fact Odo recently opted for a more offensive playing style under the guidance of her new coach.

One of the stories I remember is Danny Seemiller being told he held the racket incorrectly but that he wanted to make his style work and prove people wrong (he actually weote about this in his book). It is also obvious that Tomokazu Harimoto's game has technical issues but there is clearly an attempt to prove he can play his close to the table style on his own terms. So without details, it is easy to form reasonable stories about all these things. That's my main point, not so much that I think you are wrong.

On the physicality od the Indian girls, I very much disagree. But that is a story for another time.

What is funny is i know well her coach, Ryusuke Sakamoto. I used to take lessons from him for quite some time. His trademark shot (as a leftie) is his chiquita and she is copying / pasting him

 

[ViperTableTennis]

I don't see that having SP on one side is evidence that double SP is viable at the elite level. SP on one side can offer some advantages because it offers contrast (between the two sides) and different options of shots. Double SP does not offer either of these, which is why I agree with others that it's likely simply inferior to double inverted at the elite levels.

I agree. It wasn’t me that turned the conversation to one sided SP, that was Tony…and I only mentioned Falck after Tony turned the conversation in that way. I’ve no intention of suggesting that Falck is evidence that my double sided SP idea might be correct…but Falck is evidence that a supposedly inferior style of play can still make it into the top 100, so I suppose in that sense only it might be mildly suggestive that my hypothesis might be viable.

I also don’t disagree with the suggestion that double SP is - in a general sense - inferior to double inverted. My intention was never to suggest that it wasn’t; my suggestion was whether it might still be viable in the top 100 irrespective of such limitations, in much the same way that there are still a small number of choppers surviving in the top 100.

 

[joshmak10]

I don't disagree with any of that. I have never suggested that double SP would be a superior style to double inverted. My speculation was whether double SP could be good enough to get into the top 100 if more people were seriously training in it. Falck may well be on the decline, but he is still comfortably inside the top 100 ranking which is the "benchmark" that I set-up in my speculation. So whereas you might view Falck as failing (and blame it on his use of SP's), strictly in the context of my hypothesis he would be viewed as positive evidence (aside from the fact he's not a double SP player, of course, but I mean in terms of his ability to get inside the top 100 with a style of play that is deemed inferior).

Either way if people seriously started training double sp it still won’t make it far because as i said, the men’s game is focused on power topspins, which you can’t achieve with sp