Should Professional TT Players (Juniors and Seniors, Men and Women) Be Targets of Fan Abuse on Forums?

[NextLevel]

This is me, partly in my capacity as a moderator, but primarily in my capacity as a poster, asking this question.

Nothing wrong with expressing negative sentiments tied to your feelings about a player. Is it okay to say things like:

"X is a useless player, he never wins for Sweden"

vs

"X has a track record of coming up short at critical moments for Sweden."

or
"WCQ is a nobody, he is an *insert preferred insult here", should never play for China."

vs.

"I am disappointed with WCQ's performance recently, I really thought he should have beaten Fan, he is not really the World #1."

or

"X is dumb, her nickname is dumb and she will forever be dumb. She even calls herself dumb."

vs.

"X makes bad and dumb decisions at critical moments, she really should be replaced with more reliable alternatives on her national team."

This is not a public forum with extreme free speech, and cultures and sentiments around many topics from how to treat women and children and even discuss public figures given the dangers of discourse on mental health have different solutions. That said TTD is deliberately trying to be a positive place to discuss and engage in fandom and the core of its membership comes from countries with certain values. So while the moderating team will discuss and take a final vote on this issue in private, this is my attempt to solicit some discussion from posters that can influence that discussion.

This is not a slam shut issue - some people do strongly believe that people and players in the public sphere can and should be criticized as freely and harshly as is reasonable because that is the price of being public. Also there are humorous jokes and criticisms that are subjectively funny to each person.

Please keep any posts here civil. The thread will be transparently moderated.

 

[chocobo]

The better question is should comments with a logical basis that are ultimately admitted by the said players be considered truthful?

Have those members (especially those who are mods now) who don't agree with those comments apologize for their own ad hominem over the years? Why do they think it has turned out like it did?

 

[Ninja26Go]

Well you can critisize but probably not start saying things like useless or nobody, aa they are obviously not true. Stick with what actually happened

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

It's fine to criticize a player's technique, tactics, and results related to table tennis, but it's another thing to call the player dumb, stupid, or some other term that can lead to a certain online toxicity. And certainly calling a minor useless because they lost a match crosses a line especially in this day and age of social media can create a firestorm of its own. That may be fine on other forums, but is that what we really want for TTD? That's someone's son/daughter/brother/sister that's the target of online abuse who happen to be public figures which can actually make it worse. Does it affect the athlete? It can. After Hina's MTO controversy, she posted an explanation which included "I understand there are various opinions, but I sincerely ask that you refrain from making abusive comments regarding this matter."

 

[NextLevel]

The better question is should comments with a logical basis that are ultimately admitted by the said players be considered truthful?

Have those members (especially those who are mods now) who don't agree with those comments apologize for their own ad hominem over the years? Why do they think it has turned out like it did?

Zeio, your ban for taking the decision into your own hands rather than asking questions before even doing so still stands. When your ban is over, you can make your case. But your ban has nothing to do with your original post, it has to do with your thinking you could repost something that a moderator removed because you wanted to do so.

 

[nablaz]

With all due respect, I think the topic is too wide and too narrow at the same time.

Obviously, in the examples @NextLevel posted, I would prefer the second approach each time. But I also understand that, in the heat of the moment and depending on personal conditions (and other factors as well, such as cultural background, character traits or simply timing), the discussion and its tones could go in unpredictable directions. There are forms of conflict and opposition that might even be desirable in an online forum.

I also think that, in many cases, there might be a very fine line between a heated argument and what is perceived as insulting or abusive behaviour. Cultural standards, as already mentioned, can affect this a lot.

Therefore, the better approach in most situations would probably be a case-by-case moderation (assuming active presence by the mods), in order to allow for freedom of speech and as little intrusiveness as possible in the natural dynamics of the discussions. But I would totally understand the intention of establishing a clear demarcation between what is considered acceptable and what is not, so that the guidelines are clear and the responsibility of staying inside the boundaries falls on the users and not on the moderating team.

 

[joshmak10]

Honest personal opinion is that sometimes, anger can cloud your judgement and ca make you say things that you normally wouldn’t say with a clear head. That being said, threats against a player and their loved ones should never be tolerated. Calling someone “dumb” or “trash” is pushing it, but I can understand it given how passionate fans are for the game, and they never want to see their favourites lose. It is in the moderators discretion on what they perceive as “heat of the moment” vs “repeated abuse” but just my two cents

 

[Catenaccio]

Zeio, your ban for taking the decision into your own hands rather than asking questions before even doing so still stands. When your ban is over, you can make your case. But your ban has nothing to do with your original post, it has to do with your thinking you could repost something that a moderator removed because you wanted to do so.

I am pleased to hear that Zeio has been banned (temporarily). The main reason I put him on my ignore list is that he repeatedly made insulting and toxic comments about various players and countries. I agree with @joshmak10 that there is a difference between heat of the moment comments and repeated abuse. Imo, the latter is unacceptable and members who engage in such activity should be banned.

 

[boretennis]

the topics title is a clear case for Betteridge's Law: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

 

[passifid]

Depends for me, if its pure haterism again and again then probably not but it might be fair to call a player stupid if they repeatedly employ poor strategy and loose because of that in specific matches or as an overall. But it should be linked clearly to an actual rationale and the insult shouldnt be the only thing that people say about the player.

I suppose the key thing would be is the insult actually about their performance or is it just used again and again to deride.

For example I would argue Liam Pitchford is weak. But specifically about that he struggles to hit powerful shots against backspin on both wings but especially the forehand. But my criticism isn't about him as a person nor do I only say that about him its just that he lacks power

This is very different from spending hours in every thread copy pasting insults from tebia

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The better question is should comments with a logical basis that are ultimately admitted by the said players be considered truthful?

Have those members (especially those who are mods now) who don't agree with those comments apologize for their own ad hominem over the years? Why do they think it has turned out like it did?

Japanese people, like many races/cultures, have slangs too.

ie, why am I so stupid, I didn't do this, or do that.

this doesn't mean, the person is acknowledging they are stupid but rather, a way of talking with slang, which can also mean, "silly me", or simply the English would use "oopsy daisy" etc.

PS. I know many Japanese table tennis player saying "why I am so stupid".

some tieba users really take it too far and claim, "even Hayata claims she is stupid".

obviously zeio loves to post anti-Japanese issues, just like anti-Indian issues.

If China has political grief with another country, I won't be surprise there will be another anti-that country issue too.

So I agree, hatred-abuse is one thing, and defining players rationally is another.
so there need to be that line, of defining situations, versus that of what tieba has become - a collected group of bullies and using that as abuse.

the question is, why does zeio want to repost tieba abusive posts over and over again?
he purely copy the chinese and translate the english to inlude the abusive words - he can easily leave it out and still deliver his meaning. So what is the purpose of the abusive repost?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I am pleased to hear that Zeio has been banned (temporarily). The main reason I put him on my ignore list is that he repeatedly made insulting and toxic comments about various players and countries. I agree with @joshmak10 that there is a difference between heat of the moment comments and repeated abuse. Imo, the latter is unacceptable and members who engage in such activity should be banned.

I was told to unignore him and come and see him getting banned.
its been a while he has been banned.
I recall many years ago, he was always getting banned. I wonder if there is a stat count on the most banned user.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

That may be fine on other forums, but is that what we really want for TTD?

After Hina's MTO controversy, she posted an explanation which included "I understand there are various opinions, but I sincerely ask that you refrain from making abusive comments regarding this matter."

I think it is clear that certain groups of table tennis fans use abusive comments.
This includes WCQ fans calling LSD to "wake up" while the match is in progress, for those that didn't see it, it meant LSD should stop sleeping and play properly during WCQ and LSD doubles match because LSD made some errors.
Chen Meng getting abused was sad too.

I think in some forums, there are no to little good people like yourself saying, you don't what those nonsense on here.
And so over time, those forums become extremely toxic for players that those group dislike.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I was told to unignore him and come and see him getting banned.
its been a while he has been banned.
I recall many years ago, he was always getting banned. I wonder if there is a stat count on the most banned user.

Most banned: That would be a toss up between an old engineer who works for peanuts and a different old guy who likes to discus aspect ratios.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Most banned: That would be a toss up between an old engineer who works for peanuts and a different old guy who likes to discus aspect ratios.

so we have 2 old guys causing endless trouble?

 

[PoppaChubby]

Most banned: That would be a toss up between an old engineer who works for peanuts and a different old guy who likes to discus aspect ratios.

Calling names that way is disrespectfull. I thought respect had to be the 1st quality required to be a moderator...

By the way, you told us you didn't want to do the "job" anymore, don't you?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Calling names that way is disrespectfull. I thought respect had to be the 1st quality required to be a moderator...

By the way, you told us you didn't want to do the "job" anymore, don't you?

Lately I have been around trying to get new moderators up to speed on how some of the tools mods have work.

But I am still too busy to be on here much.

 

[piligrim]

I was told to unignore him and come and see him getting banned.
its been a while he has been banned.
I recall many years ago, he was always getting banned. I wonder if there is a stat count on the most banned user.

Tueba users very sad to read zeio was banned

 

[joshmak10]

Calling names that way is disrespectfull.

🤔

 

[NextLevel]

Calling names that way is disrespectfull. I thought respect had to be the 1st quality required to be a moderator...

By the way, you told us you didn't want to do the "job" anymore, don't you?

It's no more disrespectful than asking people to call you PoppaChubby or NextLevel. I will use my real name (which is in the public domain already) when you use yours... but maybe you can cite the source of assuming the practice is disrespectful so I can understand your culture better...