Sponge hardness is not the end of story...

[Gozo Zyreruna]

On paper:

T05H is around ESN 50 - 52 degree hardness.

T25 is around ESN 45 - 47 degree hardness.

So it should feel in term of hardness T05H > T25 right?

Wrong!

T05H seems more bitey / grabby than T25. Why? Oh why the hell the world is so complicated?

T05H seems to roll the ball much more than T25. Why? Oh why the hell the world is so complicated?

 

[Taute]

Maybe because you only evaluate the sponge, but do not evaluate the structure of the rubber itself, which affects grip and, ultimately, the thickness of the rubber itself (I mean "rubber" as the top layer)?
You would have a completely different feeling if you took rubber's of the same declared hardness from a different manufacturer.
If the parameters you mentioned depended only on the hardness of the sponge, then a max of 18 rubbers (from 40 to 57.5 ESN) would be enough and no more would be needed (because the characteristics should be the same).

 

[Lazer]

On paper:

T05H is around ESN 50 - 52 degree hardness.

T25 is around ESN 45 - 47 degree hardness.

So it should feel in term of hardness T05H > T25 right?

Wrong!

T05H seems more bitey / grabby than T25. Why? Oh why the hell the world is so complicated?

T05H seems to roll the ball much more than T25. Why? Oh why the hell the world is so complicated?

On paper... is ONLY the sponge hardness stated. There are obviously more to it than this. I.e. Top layer rubber, sponge thickness, (thinner sponge feels harder than thicker sponge)...

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Zwill]

T25 has large diameter pips, of course it is harder to squeeze into the sponge than T05, no wonder T64 and T19 feel the softest.

Actually it's one of the reason why D09c isn't _that_ much harder than D05.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yeah. It looks like, Gozo, you missed this conversation which went on and on and on and on from when Tenergy came out with Tenergy 05, 64, and 25. Those were the first three Tenergy rubbers. They all have the same exact sponge hardness. They all have the same exact topsheet. The only difference between the three is the pimple structure. And because the pimple structure changes, the feel and playing characteristics of each rubber are totally different.

25 has really thick pimples which makes the topsheed have way less give: it will stretch less, it will wrap around the ball less, when you really dig in to get the ball to sink into the topsheet and sponge, the topsheet will not distort, stretch and rebound as much as the others. So, for a quicker shorter stroke, like flicks, it is really good. It also gives you more control in other aspects of the over the table game (short game) because the characteristics I listed above make it less sensitive to incoming spin.

64 has longer thinner pimples that are spaced out further so they will bend more. For some reason this causes 64 to be faster and have LESS SPIN than 05.

I could be wrong. I have not thought about this issue since maybe 2012 or 2013. So, if I have what causes 64 to have the characteristics not quite right, feel free to correct me or add to the information.

05 is not as fast as 64 but generates more spin.

And then, after a few years, they added T80 (maybe 2012) to be somewhere in between T05 and T64.

What is the difference between these and T19, not sure; by the time Butterfly came out with T19, I was no longer paying attention to this kind of stuff.

Back then, most people didn't pay much attention to T25 because it has its specialty uses for someone who plays close to the table. But as soon as you back up to mid-distance for big loop-to-loop battles, it does not do those kinds of things as easily as T05, T80 or T64.

T64 was made popular by ZJK because that was what he was using for BH when he won his first WTTC Crown. The fast, low trajectory of T64 was credited with how lethal his over the table BH loops were. But then, he switched to T05fx on BH and everyone started thinking that was the BH rubber for lethal BHs.

Anyway, with the original Tenergy series: the sponge is the same. The rubber of the topsheet is the same. The only thing that is different from T05, T64, T25, and T80 is the pimple structure.

 

[Tyce]

T05H seems to roll the ball much more than T25. Why? Oh why the hell the world is so complicated?

I wonder what you mean with this, can you explain?

 

[Airoc]

Maybe because you only evaluate the sponge, but do not evaluate the structure of the rubber itself, which affects grip and, ultimately, the thickness of the rubber itself (I mean "rubber" as the top layer)?

Yes, and as concerns the sponge, the same hardness can feel different in relation to the layout of the pores (large vs. small, thin cell wall vs. thick).

It´s a multitude of factors.

 

[Amayzde]

Yeah. It looks like, Gozo, you missed this conversation which went on and on and on and on from when Tenergy came out with Tenergy 05, 64, and 25. Those were the first three Tenergy rubbers. They all have the same exact sponge hardness. They all have the same exact topsheet. The only difference between the three is the pimple structure. And because the pimple structure changes, the feel and playing characteristics of each rubber are totally different.

25 has really thick pimples which makes the topsheed have way less give: it will stretch less, it will wrap around the ball less, when you really dig in to get the ball to sink into the topsheet and sponge, the topsheet will not distort, stretch and rebound as much as the others. So, for a quicker shorter stroke, like flicks, it is really good. It also gives you more control in other aspects of the over the table game (short game) because the characteristics I listed above make it less sensitive to incoming spin.

64 has longer thinner pimples that are spaced out further so they will bend more. For some reason this causes 64 to be faster and have LESS SPIN than 05.

I could be wrong. I have not thought about this issue since maybe 2012 or 2013. So, if I have what causes 64 to have the characteristics not quite right, feel free to correct me or add to the information.

05 is not as fast as 64 but generates more spin.

And then, after a few years, they added T80 (maybe 2012) to be somewhere in between T05 and T64.

What is the difference between these and T19, not sure; by the time Butterfly came out with T19, I was no longer paying attention to this kind of stuff.

Back then, most people didn't pay much attention to T25 because it has its specialty uses for someone who plays close to the table. But as soon as you back up to mid-distance for big loop-to-loop battles, it does not do those kinds of things as easily as T05, T80 or T64.

T64 was made popular by ZJK because that was what he was using for BH when he won his first WTTC Crown. The fast, low trajectory of T64 was credited with how lethal his over the table BH loops were. But then, he switched to T05fx on BH and everyone started thinking that was the BH rubber for lethal BHs.

Anyway, with the original Tenergy series: the sponge is the same. The rubber of the topsheet is the same. The only thing that is different from T05, T64, T25, and T80 is the pimple structure.

I was gonna post somthing similair, so thank you for doing it for me haha.

@Gozo Aruna You can find the exact differences on the butterfly website; https://www.butterfly-global.com/en/product/tenergy/

Or just look at this picture instead:

What generally seems to be the difference in pimple structure;
Diameter: Bigger diameters makes the topsheet feel harder. And a single pimple of T25 is about 2,5x bigger then T05.
Structure: more dense structures (pimples closer together) seem to make the topsheet feel more stiff, but also more grippy.

So the T25 seems to be more of a flat hit/counter rubber then a spin rubber.

 

[igorponger]

Ве aware, please,
-- ©Tamasu Butterfly used to employ Shore A hardness scale, while ESN using Shore O scale. The divergence in numbers would be circa 10 hardness units.

Be happy.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

So the T25 seems to be more of a flat hit/counter rubber then a spin rubber.

And this sentence is probably one of the reasons Gozo shows so much interest in T25:

Great photos to show the difference by the way. From those photos, it looks like the pimples on T64 are spaced further apart and a slight bit taller but the same diameter.

Excellent post.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

And this sentence is probably one of the reasons Gozo shows so much interest in T25:

Spoiler: 😍你真的了解我的心💕

You really know my heart

 

[baynhanh145]

There are 2 types: Sponge hardness vs Topsheet hardness
Some are hard sponge but soft topsheet feel

 

[Tembel]

I have a team mate who plays really nice controlled high arc, high spin loops with both fh and bh with T25FX. He barely ever flat hits. So I believe it can be used quite well for a classic playing style as well (even though maybe the other Tenergies are more optimal for this!?).

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I have a team mate who plays really nice controlled high arc, high spin loops with both fh and bh with T25FX. He barely ever flat hits. So I believe it can be used quite well for a classic playing style as well (even though maybe the other Tenergies are more optimal for this!?).

Yep. It can be done. That is not a question. But I have seen a player (Tahl Leibovitz) loop with a hardbat. He loops better with his regular equipment. But he can loop with a hardbat.

I have seen players use T25 how you said. But I am pretty sure, what it excels at and makes easier is things over the table. As you get further from the table you have to work harder for things with it than you would with T05, T80, and T64. Each of them are good for slightly different things. The questions you need to ask when considering different equipment is what are the tradeoffs. When you change equipment, you will gain facility over one thing and something else will become a little harder to do. You can still do it. You will just have to work a little harder.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

equipment is a lot more technical than just reading charts.
pip structures as explain above is so important. Pip widths/length, spacing between pips and positioning, all play a role. Then topsheet (won't even go there).
Sponge type, thicknesss, hardness etc.

in blades, the thickness of plies makes it very different feel even if it is the exact same combination.
Then there is even the heating of the plies, glue used etc.