TPB Penhold Short Pips or Inverted

[PenHoldSandro]

Let's see Liu Zihang what level reaches as he grows:

Oh yeah this guy, imo he's an outlier. I still wouldn't recommend it as much as SP or inverted.

 

[blahness]

I dont think you understand my point either. I know youre describing the penhold lp player, and yes it is pretty powerful, but have you seen any top 10 player use it in the modern game? No, right?

Theres something about it that makes it weaker in the modern game, and it also looks like this isn't the style OP was looking for.

Thank you for the information, @blahness, it was surprising to see a penhold lp supporter here lol.

The 'meta' at the amateur level is simply not the same as at the pro level. What top 10 players use has 0 bearing of which styles are most effective at the amateur level.

Coming back to penhold - have you seen a 2nd Felix Lebrun or Wang Hao? Basically it takes an extraordinary amount of training + talent to reach such a level with 2x penhold inverted. The odds are so low in which point you might as well just go for shakehand 2x inverted which is in fact the easier path if you have the training budget to train like a pro.

But most amateurs dont even come close. Especially inverted RPB at an amateur level, in my opinion it is a liability. Most of these half baked RPB players I can bully easily on the BH-BH diagonal because of the middle weakness and bad defence against heavy spin. With skilled TPB players they dont have any defence weaknesses especially coz they have no 'middle' weak spot, and if they are skilled in their LP it is even worse.

LP/inverted twiddling is simply an easier way to achieve a high level as an amateur level. LP also has the advantage of being the antidote to spinny short serves.

 

[blahness]

Let's see Liu Zihang what level reaches as he grows:

Tbh i'm not too happy to see his playstyle at the moment, because he relies too much on the LP attack rather than developing a super strong penhold inverted game (for eg FH loopkill). Even the serves are like a bit half baked....

 

[PenHoldSandro]

The 'meta' at the amateur level is simply not the same as at the pro level. What top 10 players use has 0 bearing of which styles are most effective at the amateur level.

Coming back to penhold - have you seen a 2nd Felix Lebrun or Wang Hao? Basically it takes an extraordinary amount of training + talent to reach such a level with 2x penhold inverted. The odds are so low in which point you might as well just go for shakehand 2x inverted which is in fact the easier path if you have the training budget to train like a pro.

But most amateurs dont even come close. Especially inverted RPB at an amateur level, in my opinion it is a liability. Most of these half baked RPB players I can bully easily on the BH-BH diagonal because of the middle weakness and bad defence against heavy spin. With skilled TPB players they dont have any defence weaknesses especially coz they have no 'middle' weak spot, and if they are skilled in their LP it is even worse.

LP/inverted twiddling is simply an easier way to achieve a high level as an amateur level. LP also has the advantage of being the antidote to spinny short serves.

Now this is a very good point. Honestly not much I can say tbh, but I do have to say that playing with LP Penhold isn't strong at all if you know how to play against it. Playing against long pips is very difficult, if you don't know how to play against it. If you do know, it's much, much simpler.

As for penhold 2x inverted, I wouldn't say extraordinary (if you're as talented as a pro). If you have the talent of Truls, Anders Lind, Harimoto and such, they would also be successful penholders. The thing is that it takes a bit more time to learn penhold, and most pros would rather just take the shakehand route.

RPB in the amateur level can be terrifying, if they aren't half baked. The closed angle with the slight sidespin makes it very scary for beginners. However, you are mostly right on this part about RPB being a liability in the amateur stages, unless they learn it well.

This is true. It does boost you very high for beginners. But how about intermediate, or advanced players who know how lp works? This will be a very big problem for the Penhold LP player.

However, I do have to commend you; you definitely made great points for LP penholders, and you are very informed about it.

Tbh i'm not too happy to see his playstyle at the moment, because he relies too much on the LP attack rather than developing a super strong penhold inverted game (for eg FH loopkill). Even the serves are like a bit half baked....

Yeah, you're right. I don't have much of a problem with his LP attack rather than loopkill, but damn those serves look trash in the pro level.

 

[greenbeanmachine]

I'm happy to see long pips + inverted penhold, especially at a high level. It adds a diversity of style, and I am a big fan of having different styles in table tennis. Most of us are not training to be pros- I'm playing on my university team to have fun and to make my teammates better, so penhold pips is very much viable at this level.

If you're coming from inverted rubbers, I think the easiest style to learn will be short pips (particularly with a grippy pip like 802-40) since you will still be able to loop and create spin to some degree. If you try short grippy pips and find that you really enjoy the pips effect, then you can go deeper down the rabbit hole -- and believe me, it's a big rabbit hole. Much more equipment-junkie-ing than you can do with inverted rubber. Size of pips, spacing of pips, length of pips, depth of sponge, are all factors which can affect the shots you hit and therefore affect your tactics.

I don't think I'd recommend long pips penhold straight away, coming from inverted. Maybe it could be a good path if you have experience playing with a hardbat, but otherwise I think grippy short pips is the place to start.

 

[blahness]

Now this is a very good point. Honestly not much I can say tbh, but I do have to say that playing with LP Penhold isn't strong at all if you know how to play against it. Playing against long pips is very difficult, if you don't know how to play against it. If you do know, it's much, much simpler.

As for penhold 2x inverted, I wouldn't say extraordinary (if you're as talented as a pro). If you have the talent of Truls, Anders Lind, Harimoto and such, they would also be successful penholders. The thing is that it takes a bit more time to learn penhold, and most pros would rather just take the shakehand route.

RPB in the amateur level can be terrifying, if they aren't half baked. The closed angle with the slight sidespin makes it very scary for beginners. However, you are mostly right on this part about RPB being a liability in the amateur stages, unless they learn it well.

This is true. It does boost you very high for beginners. But how about intermediate, or advanced players who know how lp works? This will be a very big problem for the Penhold LP player.

However, I do have to commend you; you definitely made great points for LP penholders, and you are very informed about it.

Yeah, you're right. I don't have much of a problem with his LP attack rather than loopkill, but damn those serves look trash in the pro level.

Calling such a style "LP penholder" is simply wrong. The correct way to refer to it is a LP/inverted penholder. Tbh long pips penhold is an addition to the existing inverted penhold play. For this style to work you need a strong inverted penhold game as a base. This is why it is not a bad idea for OP because it builds on his existing inverted base rather than requiring him to relearn almost everything.

Personally, I think single side LP penhold to be a very weak style (i pretty much destroy them most of the time), they are just way too limited. i could literally fish no spin to them all day long and they will make the first mistake lol, or float a high ball for me to finish off. Also LP cant create much spin with the serve, so literally whatever they serve is easily attacked straight away with no mercy (remember shakehanders have access to BH chiquita so short serves are even worse).

But with LP/inverted, such limitations are not present - and opponents are always afraid of that powerful penhold serve + FH loopkill so these strategies that work against pure LP penholders dont work against LP/inverted penholders.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Calling such a style "LP penholder" is simply wrong. The correct way to refer to it is a LP/inverted penholder. Tbh long pips penhold is an addition to the existing inverted penhold play. For this style to work you need a strong inverted penhold game as a base. This is why it is not a bad idea for OP because it builds on his existing inverted base rather than requiring him to relearn almost everything.

Oh, I call it that because it uses LP, not because it's only LP. It's a snappier name and I like to use it more. Anyway who would use LP only?

I see your point, and it does make sense. It isn't a bad idea, I just don't recommend it as much as the other two ideas.

Personally, I think single side LP penhold to be a very weak style (i pretty much destroy them most of the time), they are just way too limited. i could literally fish no spin to them all day long and they will make the first mistake lol, or float a high ball for me to finish off. Also LP cant create much spin with the serve, so literally whatever they serve is easily attacked straight away with no mercy (remember shakehanders have access to BH chiquita so short serves are even worse).

Man who wouldn't think that bruh. I never talk about one sided long pips because it is just that useless, unlike the inverted/LP one.

But with LP/inverted, such limitations are not present - and opponents are always afraid of that powerful penhold serve + FH loopkill so these strategies that work against pure LP penholders dont work against LP/inverted penholders.

On top of all the ideas I've given out, I would like to add one more to the problem of LP/inverted PH, that being twiddling. Like as you said, you can't attack too well with LP only and it requires the inverted for it to play at the high level you're talking about. Thing is, even some of the best penhold twiddlers still take time to twiddle their racket, and stacking it on top of directing the racket, changing angle, applying force, backswing, and footwork, makes it an extremely hard thing to do, even at a high level.

I'm happy to see long pips + inverted penhold, especially at a high level. It adds a diversity of style, and I am a big fan of having different styles in table tennis. Most of us are not training to be pros- I'm playing on my university team to have fun and to make my teammates better, so penhold pips is very much viable at this level.

Yes this is true. The whole point of the game is to have fun!

If you're coming from inverted rubbers, I think the easiest style to learn will be short pips (particularly with a grippy pip like 802-40) since you will still be able to loop and create spin to some degree. If you try short grippy pips and find that you really enjoy the pips effect, then you can go deeper down the rabbit hole -- and believe me, it's a big rabbit hole. Much more equipment-junkie-ing than you can do with inverted rubber. Size of pips, spacing of pips, length of pips, depth of sponge, are all factors which can affect the shots you hit and therefore affect your tactics.

No comment here, this is also true. Moving from inverted to SP is much, much easier than to move to LP.

I don't think I'd recommend long pips penhold straight away, coming from inverted. Maybe it could be a good path if you have experience playing with a hardbat, but otherwise I think grippy short pips is the place to start.

This is the main point I'm talking about! I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm saying it's not my ideal path. Maybe OP should go to SP first and we'll see what happens.

 

[blahness]

On top of all the ideas I've given out, I would like to add one more to the problem of LP/inverted PH, that being twiddling. Like as you said, you can't attack too well with LP only and it requires the inverted for it to play at the high level you're talking about. Thing is, even some of the best penhold twiddlers still take time to twiddle their racket, and stacking it on top of directing the racket, changing angle, applying force, backswing, and footwork, makes it an extremely hard thing to do, even at a high level.

Yep of course twiddling is not difficult but at least can be trained at home without a table easily. But double inverted penhold especially inverted RPB, I really rarely see players managing to master it at levels equal to shakehand BH at an amateur level.

The reason why LP/inverted works so well is also because it is super confusing and disruptive for the opponent. And penhold really thrives in this super complex spin/placement game because the advantage of wrist flexibility of penhold vs shakehand.

Whereas going double inverted penhold forces you to play the 2x inverted shakehand game where the game almost devolves into BH-BH topspin rallying somehow, and that is usually what shakehand is just superior at.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Yep of course twiddling is not difficult but at least can be trained at home without a table easily. But double inverted penhold especially inverted RPB, I really rarely see players managing to master it at levels equal to shakehand BH at an amateur level.

The reason why LP/inverted works so well is also because it is super confusing and disruptive for the opponent. And penhold really thrives in this super complex spin/placement game because the advantage of wrist flexibility of penhold vs shakehand.

Whereas going double inverted penhold forces you to play the 2x inverted shakehand game where the game almost devolves into BH-BH topspin rallying somehow, and that is usually what shakehand is just superior at.

This is very smart of you to notice. I agree that in the LP blocking game, Penhold is better than shakehand in almost every way. However, I would say that TPB with inverted allows you to play almost the same types of shots as with LP (drop shots, punches with little spin), but also add its own spin if needed. That, combines with the inverted forehand makes it much more versatile than if it were to be LP.

Mixing TPB and RPB shots with double inverted is also better, since it messes up the opponent's mental game, since if it were LP they could easily adapt since they know it's LP, but for TPB inverted, it's much more subtle.

I would say though that because of your information, I do now realize that LP Penhold is a better style than I thought. Hurrah for that!

 

[blahness]

This is very smart of you to notice. I agree that in the LP blocking game, Penhold is better than shakehand in almost every way. However, I would say that TPB with inverted allows you to play almost the same types of shots as with LP (drop shots, punches with little spin), but also add its own spin if needed. That, combines with the inverted forehand makes it much more versatile than if it were to be LP.

Mixing TPB and RPB shots with double inverted is also better, since it messes up the opponent's mental game, since if it were LP they could easily adapt since they know it's LP, but for TPB inverted, it's much more subtle.

I would say though that because of your information, I do now realize that LP Penhold is a better style than I thought. Hurrah for that!

Penholder's main problem is the topspin to topspin game which they just cant really compete with shakehand. I will admit that penhold is superior when the spin is complicated especially with underspin type balls. But now with chiquita, there is simply no stopping a shakehander from forcing the topspin rally from the get go. It is the no.1 problem for penholders which I also exploit all the time.

Only LP can consistently convert a spinny opening loop back into a short backspin ball to force a push which makes the game go back to backspin + hunting for FH 3rd ball loopkill mode where penhold is favoured. The other way is TPB inverted chopblocking a spinny opening loop which is damn hard and basically gambling imo. The other TPB shots are not hard to deal with by 2x inverted shakehanders (face it we are your main competition lol).

Also LP/inverted penhold players will also rely a lot on TPB inverted and inverted FH so it's not like you slap a LP on the other side and you lose the inverted FH and inverted TPB. The LP is just really for disruption and complicating the game.

 

[blahness]

This is very smart of you to notice. I agree that in the LP blocking game, Penhold is better than shakehand in almost every way. However, I would say that TPB with inverted allows you to play almost the same types of shots as with LP (drop shots, punches with little spin), but also add its own spin if needed. That, combines with the inverted forehand makes it much more versatile than if it were to be LP.

Mixing TPB and RPB shots with double inverted is also better, since it messes up the opponent's mental game, since if it were LP they could easily adapt since they know it's LP, but for TPB inverted, it's much more subtle.

I would say though that because of your information, I do now realize that LP Penhold is a better style than I thought. Hurrah for that!

My practice partner is a high level LP/inverted penhold so I know the style quite a bit. I personally tried shakehand anti BH and FH inverted some time but imo that is still not as powerful as the penhold LP/inverted style. There are just too many possibilities with LP/inverted penhold and imo even at the pro scene we havent seen it be played to the full potential.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Penholder's main problem is the topspin to topspin game which they just cant really compete with shakehand. I will admit that penhold is superior when the spin is complicated especially with underspin type balls. But now with chiquita, there is simply no stopping a shakehander from forcing the topspin rally from the get go. It is the no.1 problem for penholders which I also exploit all the time.

I mean they can compete with shakehand on the topspin-topspin game... on the forehand side. On the backhand side, I agree that Penhold falls a bit short (except Felix idk what that guy did but it worked). Some ways to combat this are to have amazing footwork (see RSM and XX), a funky backhand (see MLin), or overwork it to hell (see Felix).

All three have side effects (that leave the end result still weaker than SH backhand, though they do work to a point.

Only LP can consistently convert a spinny opening loop back into a short backspin ball to force a push which makes the game go back to backspin + hunting for FH 3rd ball loopkill mode where penhold is favoured. The other way is TPB inverted chopblocking a spinny opening loop which is damn hard and basically gambling imo. The other TPB shots are not hard to deal with by 2x inverted shakehanders (face it we are your main competition lol).

Yeah you guys are our main competitor in the current meta lol, I won't argue about that. But having LP isn't the only way to prevent the forced backhand-backhand rallies where SH is favored, Penholders can also force forehand-forehand rallies, where they are 100% tied (Penhold might actually have the advantage because of wrist control being higher, and therefore spin).

You don't need to chop block it, you can just punch it. TPB has a LOT of control with the position, so using that with the lack of spin these punches have make a terrifying shot.

LP is also easily abusable once you know how it works, and twiddling doesn't save it often enough (blocking a smash close to the table is quite hard).

Also LP/inverted penhold players will also rely a lot on TPB inverted and inverted FH so it's not like you slap a LP on the other side and you lose the inverted FH and inverted TPB. The LP is just really for disruption and complicating the game.

While in theory this would work, twiddling in and of itself is the big problem. It just takes too much time to think about when to execute the action and the time it takes to execute it.

But, I do have to agree that the purpose of the LP is right to all levels. If a player is good at placing the ball and fast at twiddling, LP is the way to go IMO. But for most other players, I'd recommend inverted much more. There's a reason why it's more common for 2xInverted penholders to pop up.

But actually I want to recommend this to my cousin for fun, especially seeing all the advantages you mentioned.

My practice partner is a high level LP/inverted penhold so I know the style quite a bit. I personally tried shakehand anti BH and FH inverted some time but imo that is still not as powerful as the penhold LP/inverted style. There are just too many possibilities with LP/inverted penhold and imo even at the pro scene we havent seen it be played to the full potential.

Wow, that's pretty cool. Makes sense why you know much about it then lol.

However I have to disagree with your statement of LP/inverted having too many possibilities. 2xInverted has more possibilities with spin, speed, and control than LP/inverted. LP/I focuses too much on the opponent's attack to return a high quality ball, or it takes too much time to twiddle. 2xI on the other hand has more spin, more top end speed, more control, and more overall possibilities that you can control.

 

[blahness]

Yeah you guys are our main competitor in the current meta lol, I won't argue about that. But having LP isn't the only way to prevent the forced backhand-backhand rallies where SH is favored, Penholders can also force forehand-forehand rallies, where they are 100% tied (Penhold might actually have the advantage because of wrist control being higher, and therefore spin).

You don't need to chop block it, you can just punch it. TPB has a LOT of control with the position, so using that with the lack of spin these punches have make a terrifying shot.

There is a super easy way to force the BH-BH rally if the penholder directs the loop to FH side of the shakehander, ie either a FH block or loop down the line to the BH and there is no solution. If you step around it leaves the wide FH open.

TPB punch is a liability against heavy topspin because it is extremely hard to control. If I loop with heavy spin 10 times to the TPB player who punches, at the same level i'm just gonna win like 70% of the points. If you watch for eg how Ryu Seung Min TPB rallies against shakehanders he basically loses them most of the time.

blocking a smash close to the table is quite hard).

While in theory this would work, twiddling in and of itself is the big problem. It just takes too much time to think about when to execute the action and the time it takes to execute it.

But, I do have to agree that the purpose of the LP is right to all levels. If a player is good at placing the ball and fast at twiddling, LP is the way to go IMO. But for most other players, I'd recommend inverted much more. There's a reason why it's more common for 2xInverted penholders to pop up.

Twiddling is not that difficult, i learnt it in like 2 weeks or so lol. Learning how to twiddle and place the ball is way easier than developing a really good inverted RPB.

At higher amateur levels, if you give the opponent any smashing opportunities you already lost the point most of the time. So this skill doesnt really matter anyway.

I think 2x inverted penholders are overrated at the amateur scene - they spend so much time drilling RPB which could have been better used on other more useful skills like serve/receive and FH loop.

However I have to disagree with your statement of LP/inverted having too many possibilities. 2xInverted has more possibilities with spin, speed, and control than LP/inverted. LP/I focuses too much on the opponent's attack to return a high quality ball, or it takes too much time to twiddle. 2xI on the other hand has more spin, more top end speed, more control, and more overall possibilities that you can control.

2x inverted has the big problem in that once the game is forced into topspin-topspin, there is no good way to get it back to backspin mode. Regardless of how much spin, speed, control you have, it is a topspin rally battle which is extremely difficult to fight against shakehand players of equal skill. Not saying it is not possible, but just that it is very difficult and requires a huge amount of time drilling fundamentals. And you also gain a middle weakness which is even worse than shakehand.

LP/inverted actually doesnt really depend on the opponent's attack, because if the opponent doesnt attack they will face a very strong attack by the LP/inverted penholder. By more possibilities i mean in terms of game complexity.

One example is that with 2x inverted, once I serve heavy sidetopspin short, you have no choice but to flip it which forces the topspin rally which I am favoured. If you attempt a push it will most likely pop up and give me a free attack. But with LP they can short push this ball (to heavy backspin), then I am forced to push it and then they can either FH loopkill or give me another disgusting angle.

 

[Lando]

This is absolutely true, and is what I'm trying to tell @blahness, specifically his ideals for LP

The other aspect no one talks about, which is why I switched to only inverted, is that if you use LP, you must train with it. That cuts into time with the inverted side. If you use LP, your inverted game isn't a strong as it would be if it were just inverted.

 

[Azku]

I'm a one-sided flat hitter SP penholder (with twiddling LP).

TPB with SP is very good for block and punch.

Once you get good, you can punch any high ball, and direct it anywhere on the table.