USA 2019 Pan Am Games Team Trial & 1st Adult Nat Rank Tourney Mar 1-3

[NextLevel]

They have allowed politics to determine their selection which is unfair.

That is one interpretation. There are others.

 

[NextLevel]

Only Two? Look harder...

Take the top 25, look who attended for both men and women, then look who didn't attend. Quite a few of these players travel all around the country to play tournaments. Some of them were left off the official national team for whatever reason. I am not going to name specific names because with the way the selection process is, I do not want to cause them trouble.

I am sorry but I looked hard enough. I can't find what is not there.

 

[lightspin]

Also if the trials were fair and the team was determined through competition, I could say whatever I want to. However because one person gets to pick the vast majority of the team I have to walk on eggshells with what I say because I do not want to cause problems for potential players who might one day want to make the national team. It is completely unfair and ridiculous.

 

[NextLevel]

Also if the trials were fair and the team was determined through competition, I could say whatever I want to. However because one person gets to pick the vast majority of the team I have to walk on eggshells with what I say because I do not want to cause problems for potential players who might one day want to make the national team. It is completely unfair and ridiculous.

I understand. But my point is that in the end, there is always room for error. Trials are too susceptible to bad days or one time issues etc. Arguments for adding judgement into selection have benefits and negatives just like trials do. The fact that people make selections doesn't inherently politicize the process unless the argument is that those selected have zero merit, which is not a case that can be made without looking at those selected.

Now in Japan, even though the selection criteria are clear, people are complaining that Hina Hayata did not make the team.

The thing is the coaches have a job to look at what is in the best interests of the team and the country both short and long term. Taking a trials based approach is fair in one sense but is not necessarily aligned with the best path for developing table tennis in America.

In fact, politicization of selection can go both ways. Requiring people to compete in trials when they are clearly the best players can alienate them if the trials are mostly a waste of their time, though they can be given the incentive of helping develop and expose local talent. In the end, it is about flexibility to manage the team. It doesn't always lead to the best results but neither do trials. But I guess it is easier to win an argument if you pretend the other side is inherently wrong.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

In Germany, China, France etc., it isn't done through fair competition. What have these countries done wrong?

I'm not sure if you follow whats going on.
You saying Germany, China, France and co etc don't have fair competition?

Many countries does it different,
some could be by form of national championship
some could be by form of a trials tournament - call it Marvelous 12, or Japan 12 or what ever

Its been like this for years...
are these national championships results and trial tournament results considered unfair to you, or what do you mean when you say, it isn't done through fair competition?

please, don't bring up 20 years ago (very political Chinese TT era), use the past 3 to 5 years as guidelines

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I understand. But my point is that in the end, there is always room for error. Trials are too susceptible to bad days or one time issues etc. Arguments for adding judgement into selection have benefits and negatives just like trials do. The fact that people make selections doesn't inherently politicize the process unless the argument is that those selected have zero merit, which is not a case that can be made without looking at those selected.

Now in Japan, even though the selection criteria are clear, people are complaining that Hina Hayata did not make the team.

The thing is the coaches have a job to look at what is in the best interests of the team and the country both short and long term. Taking a trials based approach is fair in one sense but is not necessarily aligned with the best path for developing table tennis in America.

In fact, politicization of selection can go both ways. Requiring people to compete in trials when they are clearly the best players can alienate them if the trials are mostly a waste of their time, though they can be given the incentive of helping develop and expose local talent. In the end, it is about flexibility to manage the team. It doesn't always lead to the best results but neither do trials. But I guess it is easier to win an argument if you pretend the other side is inherently wrong.

I understand your view point of coaches looking at long term.
I guess this is where if you have a team of 5, then coach can control the team by 1 or 2 of them.
For majority, then i would say coach has too much power.

I think USA is not blessed like some countries and to give power to a small amount of people to a small amount of players is not good at all. This trials is a joke with the limited attendance (I believe this is the lowest amount in years right?).

USA is very weak in TT and is busy on the increase.
USATT has a very young team and has a very lower average age for a long time.

Talking about long term plan and age - USA has been doing fine on this for years.
So the change of the "rules" is not because USA is an oldise team, and they want a younger team for the future.
I can agree with you if the team is full of oldies and they want to have x number youngsters and force the coach to have decision for this

Overall, no matter what way you look at it, there will be facts and support and the other side you will have facts and resistant.
I would have open card policy - have the rules stated out in advance (not 2 months, but 12 months) so players can plan and compete equally and fairly.

If they get injured - that is part of life (same with any sporting code).
My 5 entry will be
1 x spot via national champion
1 x spot via trials 1
1 x spot via trials 2
1 x spot via wild card
1 x spot via wild card 2, or development player (by USA is full of youngsters, so this U21/U18 player is not really needing a wild card spot)

 

[NextLevel]

I'm not sure if you follow whats going on.
You saying Germany, China, France and co etc don't have fair competition?

Many countries does it different,
some could be by form of national championship
some could be by form of a trials tournament - call it Marvelous 12, or Japan 12 or what ever

Its been like this for years...
are these national championships results and trial tournament results considered unfair to you, or what do you mean when you say, it isn't done through fair competition?

please, don't bring up 20 years ago (very political Chinese TT era), use the past 3 to 5 years as guidelines

In 2019, CNT only allocated one spot via trials. 1 spot. No need for 20 years ago. The rest are coach picks. Usually the coach picks are main national team players.

Japan did 5 different criteria but I think 2 were wildcards. They gave the wildcards early to players that now people are questioning on the women's side even though by ranking they are fully deserving. All because Hayata didn't make it for a spot that was fully transparent.

For Korea, they used huge trials similar to what happened in the US. Remember that not winning the trials doesn't mean you can't make the team. It just doesn't make you automatic.

In Germany, the coach just picks the team. These are all recent so I don't need to go 20 years back.

 

[NextLevel]

I understand your view point of coaches looking at long term.
I guess this is where if you have a team of 5, then coach can control the team by 1 or 2 of them.
For majority, then i would say coach has too much power.

I think USA is not blessed like some countries and to give power to a small amount of people to a small amount of players is not good at all. This trials is a joke with the limited attendance (I believe this is the lowest amount in years right?).

USA is very weak in TT and is busy on the increase.
USATT has a very young team and has a very lower average age for a long time.

Talking about long term plan and age - USA has been doing fine on this for years.
So the change of the "rules" is not because USA is an oldise team, and they want a younger team for the future.
I can agree with you if the team is full of oldies and they want to have x number youngsters and force the coach to have decision for this

Overall, no matter what way you look at it, there will be facts and support and the other side you will have facts and resistant.
I would have open card policy - have the rules stated out in advance (not 2 months, but 12 months) so players can plan and compete equally and fairly.

If they get injured - that is part of life (same with any sporting code).
My 5 entry will be
1 x spot via national champion
1 x spot via trials 1
1 x spot via trials 2
1 x spot via wild card
1 x spot via wild card 2, or development player (by USA is full of youngsters, so this U21/U18 player is not really needing a wild card spot)

The coach has too much power if the coach is abusing it. Because if he isn't, the coach can address important issues related to the team and the sport. In 2017 WTTC, a player qualified and then decided it wasn't worth his time to go because he was not going to be a professional player anyways. A lot of our juniors are like this.

One of the things that Bitzigeio is trying to do us find players who want to be professionals and put them in the German system. It is good timing as well as Joola is now a US company and is looking at sponsoring players and clubs to build its brand. But if we don't want to make our team part of a plan to make US table tennis better, what is the point?

This year was for Pan American Cup where one Olympic spot is available. Kanak is already in so other people need to play. The idea that what is happening is mostly political depends on who you are listening to. There are things that are happening that lead me to believe that things can get better. I may be wrong but so be it.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The coach has too much power if the coach is abusing it. Because if he isn't, the coach can address important issues related to the team and the sport. In 2017 WTTC, a player qualified and then decided it wasn't worth his time to go because he was not going to be a professional player anyways. A lot of our juniors are like this.

One of the things that Bitzigeio is trying to do us find players who want to be professionals and put them in the German system. It is good timing as well as Joola is now a US company and is looking at sponsoring players and clubs to build its brand. But if we don't want to make our team part of a plan to make US table tennis better, what is the point?

This year was for Pan American Cup where one Olympic spot is available. Kanak is already in so other people need to play. The idea that what is happening is mostly political depends on who you are listening to. There are things that are happening that lead me to believe that things can get better. I may be wrong but so be it.

obviously I hope you are not wrong, but this wrong and so be it, you know how many will need to suffer?
at the end of the day, USATT is not a company, its a federation built with laws that govern fair practice.
If it was a company, it can do what ever it feels like.

So the coach can discriminate and only choose players who want to be professional?
That is against the olympic spirit....
how many top athletes can make TT a professional? not many, maybe less than 0.001%, so the the other 99.999% will be discriminated.... that sure can't be right.

Joola is now a US company yes, but it doesn't mean Joola all of the sudden will through millions of dollars away.
Joola is already a very strong brand in USA, it is weaker in other countries, so it would make more sense they spend they dollars not in USA if they want to build a stronger brand.

Your top markets are no doubt China and Germany

I'm all for US table tennis better - and hopefully become commercialized like the other sports and make it a strong viewership sport and career opportunity.
right now, its a volunteer organization.
But based on this trials, how many cities did not pitch up?
Is it more popular or is it less now?

 

[NextLevel]

obviously I hope you are not wrong, but this wrong and so be it, you know how many will need to suffer?
at the end of the day, USATT is not a company, its a federation built with laws that govern fair practice.
If it was a company, it can do what ever it feels like.

So the coach can discriminate and only choose players who want to be professional?
That is against the olympic spirit....
how many top athletes can make TT a professional? not many, maybe less than 0.001%, so the the other 99.999% will be discriminated.... that sure can't be right.

Joola is now a US company yes, but it doesn't mean Joola all of the sudden will through millions of dollars away.
Joola is already a very strong brand in USA, it is weaker in other countries, so it would make more sense they spend they dollars not in USA if they want to build a stronger brand.

Your top markets are no doubt China and Germany

I'm all for US table tennis better - and hopefully become commercialized like the other sports and make it a strong viewership sport and career opportunity.
right now, its a volunteer organization.
But based on this trials, how many cities did not pitch up?
Is it more popular or is it less now?

This trials had some of the best junior talent in the US similar to last year (2017 and 2018). The only people I saw not playing that came to mind were the Alguettis. But they have generally accepted that they don't want to go pro as players from what I remember seeing/reading/hearing. Same with Jack Wang. I did not see anyone else in the top 25 who skipped it and was eligible.