What's really going on.

[kmcockes]

So I play ping pong at work, been playing recreationaly for 20 years +, learned on plywood tables with wood nets at summer camp with sand paper bats, can do just about anything i want to the ball.... as long as I play with a hard bat.

I bought a Killer Spin Jet Black paddle and gave it a few weeks. Was a disaster, i hit the ball the exact same way and get a different result each time because of the spin that the paddle generates. I could do cool things with the spin but it was so inconsistent I was losing to players that I would dominate prior.

It's maddening, so much to the point that I bought some pristine still in the package Sears & Roebuck ( yes Sears ) paddles that were made in the 1950's and since then, can't lose.

Help me out here por favor! What's really going on ??

Ken

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[songdavid98]

the rubbers on the new paddle can generate lots of spin because the racket can grip the ball with friction.

However, at the same time, that means the racket is now a lot more sensitive to spin, since the ball can grip the racket with friction.

You are simply not familiar with playing with equipment that sensitive to spin. You have to read the spin and adjust your racket angle accordingly to make your shots.

It's ping pong with an added dimension now.

 

[pgpg]

To make you feel better, someone who played for 20+ years with modern inverted setup will have similar struggles when handed hardbat. Strokes are different.

You can be pretty high level (USATT 2000+) with hardbat, so nothing wrong with sticking with it (or its close equivalent).

 

[berndtjgmann]

So I play ping pong at work, been playing recreationaly for 20 years +, learned on plywood tables with wood nets at summer camp with sand paper bats, can do just about anything i want to the ball.... as long as I play with a hard bat.

I bought a Killer Spin Jet Black paddle and gave it a few weeks. Was a disaster, i hit the ball the exact same way and get a different result each time because of the spin that the paddle generates. I could do cool things with the spin but it was so inconsistent I was losing to players that I would dominate prior.

It's maddening, so much to the point that I bought some pristine still in the package Sears & Roebuck ( yes Sears ) paddles that were made in the 1950's and since then, can't lose.

Help me out here por favor! What's really going on ??

Ken

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What's going on, kimcockes, is that table tennis as played today bears no resemblance to the table tennis as played in 1952 when I first started to play at age 10 in my parents' garage on a plywood 4' X 8' table stained green with Mystic tape for edge, base, and doubles lines. I and my best friends, the Avery brothers, used Sears Roebuck rackets virtually identical to the ones depicted in your image.

Now there are thousands and thousands of combinations of rackets and rubbers to choose from, manufacturers metasitisizing that didn't exist ten or fifteen years ago, and at the competitive level you're likely to encounter players from 8 to 88 who, if 8 and well coached, can loop drive you off the table and serve you into an apoplectic fit and 88 year olds with diabolical frictionless long pipped rubbers whose knuckle ball blocks will hopelessly foul up your central nervous system.

To put it succinctly, the sport is a lot crazier and less self-regulated than it used to be. As pgpg pointed out, it's possible to get to the 2000 USATT level by playing with a hard rubber racket, but you'll have to do it on your own, as there are no coaches that I know of who can teach you how to play successfully with a hard rubber racket against a multiplicity of sponge rubber players with different styles, perhaps different combinations of rubbers, different techniques from modern attacking exemplary to modern pushblocking infuriating and everything in between.

This is why I said to myself back in 1998 oh the hell with it and became a hard rubber player playing almost exclusively in hard rubber events, although I adopted an unusual style incorporating a reverse penhold backhand and chops plus attack. Given the time I wanted to devote to table tennis, this seemed, at age 56, s sensible choice. Hardbat to hardbat I knew what I wanted to do and I had a pretty good idea as to what any opponent I faced could or could not do. Against sponge players too many technical adjustments to make from match to match to match.

If you wish to continue playing with a hardbat, kimcockes, any racket on the market made of wood will do. The YLT Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman, which can be seen on the www.YLTonline.com website, would be a very good choice. For a rubber I would recommend any rubber with a cloth backing, such as Butterfly Orthodox, Yasaka A-1-2, Yasaka Cobalt, or Valor Premier.

 

[kmcockes]

Thanks for all the replies, looks like im going to stick with the 1950's era tech until I start losing. Everyone at work now has bought new fancy pance bats, but I'm still winning! My boy is holding a box of 50 practice balls that just came in, looking forward to a great 2018!

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[berndtjgmann]

As I know through years and years of experience, kimcockes, fancy pants bats cannot by themselves a successful table tennis player make. In 2005, a friend of mine, Bill McLaughlin, reached the finals of the hard rubber singles championship at the 2005 Ohio State Closed tournament using a $3.00 Sportcraft Reliant hard rubber racket. His USA Table Tennis rating at that time was around 1650.

I hope that you will be able to keep on winning with your 1950s gear, but should the fancy pants racket crowd overtake you, here is one solution you might consider. Challenge a fancy pants racket toter to a mano a mano duel to the death best 2 of 3 21 point game Sears Roebuck to Sears Roebuck racket. Should the fancy pants racket toter accept, I don't think you'll have any problems after that.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Challenge a fancy pants racket toter to a mano a mano duel to the death best 2 of 3 21 point game Sears Roebuck to Sears Roebuck racket. Should the fancy pants racket toter accept, I don't think you'll have any problems after that.

For the challenge to be fair, you would have to have two matches:

1) Hardbat to Hardbat
2) Sponge to Sponge

If you are challenging him to accept a match where he uses your weapon of preference, the challenge can't have much significance unless he also plays you where you have to use his weapon of preference. Then you see if you were more dominant when both of you used your weapon of preference. Or if he was more dominant using his weapon of preference. Of course if one wins with both, then there is no question of who was more skilled.

I did once watch Michael Landers beat a hardbat specialist with sandpaper and no warm up. He and I were hitting. And the hardbat guy asked to jump in quickly. At some point the hardbat guy complained about how easy the sponge made it. So Mike said he was happy to play sandpaper. They played best of 3 games to 21. Mike was down right till they hit 20 in the first game. That was were he tied it up. It was also where he finally got used to the hardbat. After that Mike was able to mess around. And the second game was a lot easier. The hardbat guy was good. But Mike is just so good at racket sports.

It is fun to watch guys who are good at hardbat though. The rallies can get so long and there is a lot more side to side play that it seems can happen.

Also, I do know coaches who can also coach hardbat. Not many. But at least two that I know; maybe three.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

But I also agree, hardbat, in many ways is simply a totally different animal than sponge. If you like hardbat, no real reason to change it. They are simply different games.

I knew Marty Reisman and he was pretty open about liking hardbat and not liking sponge. The guy was pretty amazing.

Back in 1991, I played for a few months at this club in NYC on 38th Street and 8th Ave called Mammoth. There were a lot of really good players there.

When Marty walked in all the best players wanted to play him and they all wanted to bet and he took all their money. It was really quite a spectacle.

One time he came and there was nobody there. I was just hitting with the robot. I was really bad back then. I really did not know how to loop or spin. I really did not know how to play. One time I beat some kid who said he was 1500. But he just played really foolishly and I outsmarted him. Anyway, luck not withstanding, back then perhaps I was 900 at best.

So nobody was there and Marty came in. And he waited a little. And then he asked if I wanted to play. I told him I knew who he was and that he was too good and didn't want to play with me. But he said he did and he didn't care if I was just learning.

We hit around for a little while and then he asked if I wanted to play a game. Again I said he was too good for me (and he really was). And he said he would spot me 11 points. Well he beat me 21-12. And I could not get a point from him unless he let me. Even when he was 79, right before he died, the guy was still pretty darn good.

 

[berndtjgmann]

(UpSideDownCarl) For the challenge to be fair, you would have to have two matches:

1) Hardbat to Hardbat
2) Sponge to Sponge


Au contraire. We are talking about a specific hypothetical which I posited, in which kimcockes would be drawing down against a hypothetical opponent who uses some kind of fancy pants sponge racket. There are many many many different kinds of fancy pants sponge rackets. There is only one kind of 1950s model Sears Roebuck hard rubber racket.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

(UpSideDownCarl) For the challenge to be fair, you would have to have two matches:

1) Hardbat to Hardbat
2) Sponge to Sponge


Au contraire. We are talking about a specific hypothetical which I posited, in which kimcockes would be drawing down against a hypothetical opponent who uses some kind of fancy pants sponge racket. There are many many many different kinds of fancy pants sponge rackets. There is only one kind of 1950s model Sears Roebuck hard rubber racket.

And if the person uses a specific "fancy pants" sponge racket, then that would be the one to use for the second part of the challenge. Because, regardless of what kind of racket the other person uses, if it is different than the hard bat, it is a different weapon. So, if you are asking him to use a different racket than the one he uses, and that racket happens to be the same as the one you use, then you are in fact asking him to use your weapon of choice.

So, without the second part, you are simply asking someone to use something they do not train with. Something you are already playing with and they don't.

But if you play a match where both use the type of racket you use and then both use the same racket the other person uses, then you have something to gauge things from.

And, again, hardbat is a totally different game than sponge. It may even be fun to make the hardbat guy play with the other player's sponge while the sponge guy plays the hardbat's weapon.

But in the end, it does not matter to me if someone wants to think that it is okay to ask someone else to play with something they don't play with. It is kind of like a guy who races horse saying to a guy who races cars, lets see what happen if we both ride horses. But the hardbat guy doesn't care that he is asking the guy who plays with a sponge racket to switch equipment while the hardbat guy is not switching equipment.

If one player expects the other player to switch equipment and but won't switch equipment himself, well, we have someone who has not accepted that he is using the weapon he has chosen.

 

[berndtjgmann]

And if the person uses a specific "fancy pants" sponge racket, then that would be the one to use for the second part of the challenge. Because, regardless of what kind of racket the other person uses, if it is different than the hard bat, it is a different weapon. So, if you are asking him to use a different racket than the one he uses, and that racket happens to be the same as the one you use, then you are in fact asking him to use your weapon of choice.

So, without the second part, you are simply asking someone to use something they do not train with. Something you are already playing with and they don't.

But if you play a match where both use the type of racket you use and then both use the same racket the other person uses, then you have something to gauge things from.

And, again, hardbat is a totally different game than sponge. It may even be fun to make the hardbat guy play with the other player's sponge while the sponge guy plays the hardbat's weapon.

But in the end, it does not matter to me if someone wants to think that it is okay to ask someone else to play with something they don't play with. It is kind of like a guy who races horse saying to a guy who races cars, lets see what happen if we both ride horses. But the hardbat guy doesn't care that he is asking the guy who plays with a sponge racket to switch equipment while the hardbat guy is not switching equipment.

If one player expects the other player to switch equipment and but won't switch equipment himself, well, we have someone who has not accepted that he is using the weapon he has chosen.

A thoughtful argument, UpsideDownCarl. But as we both know, there are fancy pants sponge rackets and there are fancy pants sponge rackets. Which type of fancy pants sponge racket could or should be an objective weapon of choice to objectively measure skill at table tennis? A carbon racket with for example Tenergy 05 one side say backhand and Tenergy 64 the other? How about a racket with oh say Musa III forehand side and Dr. Neubauer Grizzly anti- backhand? The good Dr.'s Viper Soft long pips (with friction) anyone?

And then of course there are any rubbers which can be factory boosted and even I suppose rubbers (that is, inverted rubbers) which aren't factory boosted but which can be boosted with boosting oils? And, if short pips with sponge happens to be your thing, well, the good doctor, whom I met at the World Vets in Lucerne Switzerland back in 2002 (very intelligent guy, great sense of humor, wonderful bawdy jokes) has Killer Pro, Terminator, Leopard, Pistol, and Tornado Ultra for you.

Now how is kimcockes or anybody else gonna really find out how well he plays the sport of table tennis, or for that matter these hypothetical and actual players who play one another with equipment so vastly different in their playing charactistics just how well they themselves play the game? By games won and lost? By looping one's opponent into hyperventilation or blocking him/her into premature dementia?

Having played both classic hardbat the first several years of my table tennis career (classic defense plus oppornutistic attack) and having seen national class sponge players such as Jim Butler, Dan Seemiller and Lily Yip play hardbat very very well with minor changes in their sponge technique, I'm no longer as sure as I once was that hardbat and sponge are totally different games.

And having played against the best players in Okinawa in the mid-'60s at probably the expert level with an inverted sponge racket (Cor Du Buy Loop Drive Sriver both sides) and played more with inverted than hardbat except socially with friends and for the last seven years of my playing career, I'm afraid that table tennis has given up at being a social activity outside of table tennis clubs.

Bring your fancy pants racket to a bar with a ping pong table such as the Meet Rack in Tucson, Arizona or the El Dorado in Columbus, Ohio or any ordinary dude's rec room or garage where the Bud Lights are flowing free and you're liable to get something like "we don't allow none of that there stuff 'round here, mister. Take that squishy (bleep) back to where yuh came from."

And as for a hardbat guy playing a sponge guy sponge to hardbat, been there and done that. Back in 2003 at the Ohio State Closed. On the old About.com tt forum he, the number two ranked player in Michigan, a classic two winged looper, around 2200, loose grip pendulum serve, two winged loop, fearsome forehand flip and all that, challenged me to a me sponge him hardbat match. I agreed.

So we played best 3 of 5 according to this agreed upon format: 21 points, 11 points, 21 points, 11 points, 21 points. The games were all close, and he pulled out a surprisingly good forehand chop backhand chop block defense against my penhold/rpb Nittaku CP-548 shod with Donic Supersonic 40 inverted. I won three games to two, no more than three points difference between us in any one game. I never claimed to be the greatest ponger that ever came down the pike, but I was kinda versatile, and never lost a hardbat/hardbat match against a sponger up to the 2100 level.

 

[kmcockes]

But I also agree, hardbat, in many ways is simply a totally different animal than sponge. If you like hardbat, no real reason to change it. They are simply different games.

I knew Marty Reisman and he was pretty open about liking hardbat and not liking sponge. The guy was pretty amazing.

Back in 1991, I played for a few months at this club in NYC on 38th Street and 8th Ave called Mammoth. There were a lot of really good players there.

When Marty walked in all the best players wanted to play him and they all wanted to bet and he took all their money. It was really quite a spectacle.

One time he came and there was nobody there. I was just hitting with the robot. I was really bad back then. I really did not know how to loop or spin. I really did not know how to play. One time I beat some kid who said he was 1500. But he just played really foolishly and I outsmarted him. Anyway, luck not withstanding, back then perhaps I was 900 at best.

So nobody was there and Marty came in. And he waited a little. And then he asked if I wanted to play. I told him I knew who he was and that he was too good and didn't want to play with me. But he said he did and he didn't care if I was just learning.

We hit around for a little while and then he asked if I wanted to play a game. Again I said he was too good for me (and he really was). And he said he would spot me 11 points. Well he beat me 21-12. And I could not get a point from him unless he let me. Even when he was 79, right before he died, the guy was still pretty darn good.

Loved the comments!!

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[Ioiettino]

I'm afraid that table tennis has given up at being a social activity outside of table tennis clubs.

Bring your fancy pants racket to a bar with a ping pong table such as the Meet Rack in Tucson, Arizona or the El Dorado in Columbus, Ohio or any ordinary dude's rec room or garage where the Bud Lights are flowing free and you're liable to get something like "we don't allow none of that there stuff 'round here, mister. Take that squishy (bleep) back to where yuh came from."

Any kind of irony here by chance?





Everybody has been saying "to each their own" and "go for it", I don't see where you're getting at.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Hey, berndtjgmann,

You are absolutely correct that there are tons of different kinds of blades and rubbers. But I think you may have missed or sidestepped my actual point.

Say you use a Sears and Roebuck hard bat, and you decide that for the competition, you both are going to use:

The YLT Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman

So that both of you are using something different than your actual weapon;

And say this fancy pants racket fellow uses a Butterfly Viscaria with Tenergy 05 on both sides, and for the challenge you both agree to use:

Butterfly Primorac Off- (all wood) with Tibhar Evolution FXP

As long as you both agree to both rackets as a simple benchmark, then it would be enough to show the relative skills in each.

And if you could play a decently high level sponge player and get him to train hardbat for a week or so and then beat him hardbat to hardbat and still be pretty close to him going sponge to sponge, then you are probably a pretty decent level player and skilled enough at playing with smooth and pimples. Nothing wrong with that.

I have a friend who was a pro tennis player who also plays TT. He plays decently with sponge. And freakin’ good with hardbat. And he has no trouble going back and forth between them. So, yeah, there are people who can do that.

BTW: if the player who uses a fancy pants racket uses pips on one side, or anti, and you both used a chosen hardbat, and then a setup similar to the pips or anti setup that the fancy pants player used, the same things would apply. As long as one setup is similar to the hardbat player’s setup. And the other setup is similar to the fancy pants player’s setup.

And I have a feeling a hardbat player would have less trouble with pips or anti than with double inverted. But, as you have already said, a skilled player, given a little time to train the different equipment can adjust to whatever equipment they are given.

I know guys who can beat most 2000 level players with a lollipop, a cell phone or a block of wood. [emoji2] Matthew Suchy is able to play with whatever you put in his hand.

But in the end, if you choose a weapon because it matches how you want to play and/or like to play, then why worry about any of this. You have made the choice. But if you want other people to play you, and you want to choose what they use, but are unwilling to use what they choose....well....that indicates that things are not quite how you are presenting them. If you really chose hardbat, but you want other people, who do not play hardbat to play you using what you use, then perhaps you are not as comfortable with what you say is your choice as you are presenting.

It is cool when you can see a good hardbat player handle a good looper. In the end skill is skill. And it seems that, at the big money hardbat competitions, the guys who seem to get to the final stages are guys who, at one point trained with smooth and changed over to hardbat.

However, I know Marty wanted the world to go back to the good old days. And man he loved winning money from sponge players. I would play and have fun, whatever my opponent was using. But trying to compare equipment and say that everyone should choose what you have....unfortunately, at this point, it is a bit unrealistic. And each different kind of surface requires different techniques and skills. So, viva la difference.


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[berndtjgmann]

Yo UpSideDownCarl,

Once again, a very nicely reasoned post from the spongeslinger, er, fancy pants racket point of view. Your idea to have a hardbat player such as kimcockes and a fancy pants opponent choose alternative rackets to the ones they normally use in a hardbat/hardbat sponge/sponge showdown is an interesting one.

Just one itsy-bitsy problem however. The choice of a Primorac OFF- wood blade ain't bad, but here's what my summer/fall Paddle Palace catalog says about Tibhar Evolution FXP:

"The most flexible, soft version of the EVOLUTION rubber family, FX-P confers a lot of sensation and control in any situation. FX-P is a high-performing rubber proven by the the enormous sound resulting from topspin strokes. The rubber surface is rich in spins and soft sponge with a high catapult effect. You get the power necessary for a variable topspin game. The player who likes to attack from near the table and is not willing to concede any ball while playing a risky game will enjoy the fine tuning of the rubber surface with the soft sponge." Sponge 1.7, 1.9, 2.1 mm. $52.95 per sheet.

Holy Samsonov! I don't think that even Ian Harrison, the English international of the 1950s for whom the original Master Craftsman designed his then fearsome weapon, would feel particularly confident going up in a sponge/sponge encounter against a decent fancy pants sponge fancier using a rubber which produces an enormous sound every time he loops the 40+ mm. ball of whatever brand and shoots it off like a catapult though not without some rink.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Entertaining. I do confess you have made me laugh. So, thank you. I appreciate that.

The rubber could be any number of rubbers. I chose one that is easy to control. If you were doing this for real, you and the fancy pants player could choose any number of things. The equipment is irrelevant. The cost is irrelevant. You have sidestepped the issue and found excuses to change the subject in a way that does cause me to smile. Quite clever. [emoji2]

If I take a lady out to dinner, I will open the door for her, I will help her take her jacket off, I will pull the chair out for her to sit and I will foot the bill.

But if someone who says he wants to play table tennis wants me to change my racket, but won’t change his, well, I would say it is probably someone who isn’t quite prepared to face reality.

If you are hemming and hawing about the price of the equipment or the marketing description of the equipment, then you are avoiding the subject and asking the other player to treat you like a lady. [emoji2]

There are plenty of rubbers that are smooth spinny rubbers that don’t cost that much. And there are ways of getting FXP for $33.00 (USD) a sheet.

But if you are asking someone to play hardbat. And you are unwilling to return the favor and do a second match where you play a sponge racket that is close enough to the same as what the fancy pants player is using, then you are asking to be treated like a lady. [emoji2]


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[berndtjgmann]

Entertaining. I do confess you have made me laugh. So, thank you. I appreciate that.

(bjgm) Why thank you ever so, USDC. I appreciate that. I aim to please, but am no Annie Oakley. Sometimes I do miss the mark.


(USDC) The rubber could be any number of rubbers. I chose one that is easy to control. If you were doing this for real, you and the fancy pants player could choose any number of things. The equipment is irrelevant. The cost is irrelevant. You have sidestepped the issue and found excuses to change the subject in a way that does cause me to smile. Quite clever. [emoji2]

(bjgm) Yeah the rubber could. From Flextra to Tenergy to Hurricane Provincial Number something or other to Das Materialspezialist antispin to TSP P-2 3/4 Curl to TSP Grandson of Spin Pips. The possibilities are boundless for a fancy pants player. For a hard rubber player, fewer possibilities, more sanity. And yeah, the equipment is sorta relevant. I for one would not want as a hardbat specialist to throw down sponge/sponge against a player who presently has his/her universe of bewildering choices of wood or carbon blades and rubbers of varying thicknesses, characteristics, and ways of propelling a table tennis ball or slowing it down or rendering it subject to the vagaries of the Magnus Lift. If I were also competent as a fancy pants sponge player, which once I was, even a speed gluer (Mark V GPS, Schildkrot V-Max), well then I'd take my chances.

(USDC) If I take a lady out to dinner, I will open the door for her, I will help her take her jacket off, I will pull the chair out for her to sit and I will foot the bill.

(bjgm) Gallant. So would I.


(USDC) But if someone who says he wants to play table tennis wants me to change my racket, but won’t change his, well, I would say it is probably someone who isn’t quite prepared to face reality.

(bjgm) From 1992 to 2005 I was a Certified USATT Club Coach, mainly assisting my Coach, Carl Hardin, in coaching cadets, juniors and senior players. I was true to the USATT Code of the Hills and never asked them to change their for the most part inverted sponge rackets and always played against them with my inverted racket, at the time (mid-'90s-early 2000s) a racket made by the Swedish racket maker Lennart Brendling affixed with Butterfly Flextra. Reality 20 years ago was pretty much the same as reality today, except because of the changes to table tennis rules in the 21st century, the changes to the balls used, and the viral expansion of table tennis equipment, resulting in the United States in a two-tier sport, a lower tier for the millions of recreational ping pong players, and a higher tier for the few tens of thousands who are members of USA Table Tennis and who play among one another in clubs and competitively in sanctioned tournaments.

(UPDC) If you are hemming and hawing about the price of the equipment or the marketing description of the equipment, then you are avoiding the subject and asking the other player to treat you like a lady. [emoji2]

(USDC) There are plenty of rubbers that are smooth spinny rubbers that don’t cost that much. And there are ways of getting FXP for $33.00 (USD) a sheet.

(bjgm) Glad to hear that. Otherwise no comment.

(USDC) But if you are asking someone to play hardbat. And you are unwilling to return the favor and do a second match where you play a sponge racket that is close enough to the same as what the fancy pants player is using, then you are asking to be treated like a lady. [emoji2]

(bjgm) While a USTTA member, in the Army, on Okinawa, at Ohio State University, at four Veterans' World TT Champions (of six overall, two played with a hardbat), and at tournaments in Ohio, Indiana, and Pennsylvania, from about 1965 to 1998 I played sponge to sponge (shorts, no fancy pants alas). I do admit (nasty me) to talking smack and on occasion trying to goad low level elite players into a hardbat/hardbat match. One, a Columbus, Ohio tt club member accepted. I beat him nine straight games forehand attacking him chopping. He was a not quite 2100 two winged power looper with a really nice perfectly legal short underspin/sidespin semihightoss serve. This was beck around 1998. The next day he decided to play his sponge game hardbat style and won six games to my ten, he forehand attacking, I chopping and counterhitting when I thought I had a chance. I gotta admit I was pooped. Running your arse off against a guy who is stronger than you ain't no picnic. And it sure wasn't any way to treat a lady.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yep. I have a feeling you know how to play. And you know how to hustle. Nothing wrong with that.

Anyone who talks about Steve Berger, well, he probably has been playing a while. I won't mention Victor Barna since only a handful of people on here would even know what a Victor Barna was. Well, they might not know who Steve was either. Hahahahah.

Nothing wrong with manipulating the situation so the "chicken and beers" contest falls in your favor. Ask Der_Echte about that. If a player just short of 2100 doesn't realize he is being hustled by a hardbat player who is close to that level in the first place, why not stack the odds in your favor.

If he doesn't realize you have tricked him into giving you a distinct advantage, then why not let him be foolish. But if he changes his equipment for you, you and you don't return the favor, you have given yourself a very noticeable advantage. If that player doesn't realize it, at the end of the day, it really is his problem.

But by getting a player who loops with smooth rubber like Tenergy--who does not already know how to play hardbat at a decent level--to try and play hardbat against you, without that player taking at least a week or so to train and practice with the racket, he would probably play at a level 500-700 points lower than his rating with smooth. And not all smooth players will figure out how to adapt to hardbat.

I remember watching Damien Provost--he was high 2700s at the time--play in a hardbat competition. He was not good. He couldn't do it. And he trained for the comp because it was in honor of Marty. Whereas, a player like Matthew Suchy, who drives through the ball more than he brushes, even when looping, he is a natural at hardbat. Or a guy like Tahl Leibovitz, that guy can really play hardbat when he puts his mind to it. But then he will complain that it messes up his smooth game.

But not everyone is going to be able to, or even want to do it.

Franck Raharinosy has got me to play a bunch with hardbat and with sandpaper; I used to suck at it. But as I got better at smooth, I got a little better at adjusting to the change. Still, hardbat is not what makes me happy when I play. I don't even care if I play matches. I personally like training where I get to spin the ball so heavy that I can make guys better than me have trouble controlling the topspin.

But, watching two guys who can really play hardbat go at it, it is a duel that, for me, is fun to watch. In many ways, more enjoyable than how short most rallies are in modern TT. But I still prefer to play modern TT. And most of the people on this forum are playing a modern looping game. So talking about hardbat may not even interest many of them.

But by all means, people should be able to choose whatever form or weapon they would like. Der_Echte's weapon of mass destruction seems to be quite similar to the one I have chosen. KJH with Karis. You don't get much out of it unless you put the effort into it. So, an all wood blade with a control rubber that handles incoming spin fairly nicely.

 

[berndtjgmann]

Yep. I have a feeling you know how to play. And you know how to hustle. Nothing wrong with that.

(bjgm) Well, USDC, I did know how to play somewhat, and did my share of hustling, particularly when in the Army in dayrooms and USOs with ping pong tables. But, in order to avoid emnity and hard feelings, were I to win which I almost always did, as even half a century ago it helped to have had some coaching, I'd have my opponent buy me a soft drink or a beer if we played in a bar and then if he was not a complete jerk (almost none were) I'd buy him a soft drink or a beer and then we'd talk about pong or any topic of the day that might come up. Now I can't play competitively because of a fall in the winter of 2005 which dislocated my right shoulder and broke my right upper arm. Now I play left handed classically shakehands sometimes on Tuesdays at a local community center with a few seniors and some students from the University of Arizona and Pima Community College.

(USDC) Anyone who talks about Steve Berger, well, he probably has been playing a while. I won't mention Victor Barna since only a handful of people on hear would even know what a Victor Barna was. Well, they might not know who Steve was either. Hahahahah.

(bjgm) Steve and I go back to the '97 Nationals in Vegas where he was my first opponent in the Hardbat Open. Despite his snow white Buddha belly, he was incredibly graceful and every time he chopped you could believe that the spirit of his mentor Dick Miles dwelt within him. If Steve had a forehand drive as deadly as Miles' he could have been 2500 against all comers. As a musician myself (piano and voice) I wish I could have had a chance to hear Steve play jazz guitar in Manhattan and Greenwich Village jazz clubs. P.S: I saw Miles in his late thirties play against Danny Vegh as he'd come to Cleveland a couple of times a year and I think Steve's backhand drive and pick-hit were better than Miles'. But Miles when forehand attacking was faster than hell and could bombard your backhand with his forehand. He could also use a severe backhand push to set up his forehand from his backhand corner.

(USDC) Nothing wrong with manipulating the situation so the "chicken and beers" contest falls in your favor. Ask Der_Echte about that. If a player just short of 2100 doesn't realize he is being hustled by a hardbat player who is close to that level in the first place, why not stack the odds in your favor.

(bjgm) Actually my USATT rating was about 600 points lower than my 2100 level clubmate's. Except hardbat to hardbat, and in 1998 there were no hardbat ratings for (anti)social non-USATT sanctioned throwdowns

If he doesn't realize you have tricked him into giving you a distinct advantage, then why not let him be foolish. But if he changes his equipment for you, you and you don't return the favor, you have given yourself a very noticeable advantage. If that player doesn't realize it, at the end of the day, it really is his problem.

(bjgm) Back in the late '90s at our old beat up Columbus club we did have a table tennis league on Wednesday evenings beginning if I recollect rightly at around 7:00 p.m. My 2100 level friend and clubmate belonged to one team, I to another. Sponge to sponge, it was a deeply religious experience playing against him. His heavy fh and bh loops, augmented by speed glued Mark V GPS? hit my racket like a sledge hammer. Trying to counterloop them was a real bitch, and chopping them was out of the question. I averaged maybe ten points a game.

(USDC) But by getting a player who loops with smooth rubber like Tenergy--who does not already know how to play hardbat at a decent level--to try and play hardbat against you, without that player taking at least a week or so to train and practice with the racket, he would probably play at a level 500-700 points lower than his rating with smooth. And not all smooth players will figure out how to adapt to hardbat.

(bjgm) Tenergy postdates my competitive playing career, USDC. But in many cases, you are right about smooth fancy pants (do I have the right emoticon?) players adapting to hardbat. Remember the famous Joo Se Hyuk en Hardbat video on YouTube? It was gracious of Joo to come to play for funsies against a very competent hardbat player, Francois Leibenguth, whom he barely defeated in a 15 point match 15-13, and got bulldozerized by the hardbat champion of France, the very stylish attacker-defender Jean-Paul Carquin. Joo back in 2009 when this video was made was the ninth ranked player in the world.

The problem that some, not all, smooth rubber players have in adjusting to hard rubber strikes me as curious. Hard rubber is an extremely innocent and cooperative rubber--it will do just what your stroke will impart to it and will give you instant feedback as to whether your stroke is sound or errant. It is up to you, more than up to you plus your rubber and whatever substance you choose to augment it with or however you choose to change its properties, that will ultimately determine how skillfully you might play with a hard rubber racket.

(USDC) I remember watching Damien Provost--he was high 2700s at the time--play in a hardbat competition. He was not good. He couldn't do it. And he trained for the comp because it was in honor of Marty. Whereas, a player like Matthew Suchy, who drives through the ball more than he brushes, even when looping, he is a natural at hardbat. Or a guy like Tahl Leibovitz, that guy can really play hardbat when he puts his mind to it. But then he will complain that it messes up his smooth game.

(bjgm) I feel Tahl's pain, but in a converse fashion. In the late '60s, '70s, even the '80s, when except for one-color "magic play" which loused up my game big time and later speed glue which made me bid adieu to chopping in favor of mid-distance spin looping and hoping my opponent would miss, smooth fancy pants (sorry, can't help it, every time I think of fancy pants rubbers I begin lol) rubbers played holy Hades with my once no frills but no major weaknesses either hardbat game. It works both ways.

(USDC) But not everyone is going to be able to, or even want to do it.

(bjgm) Right-o. Hardbat, like politics, ain't beanbag. It requires a strong stomach, iron will and steely nerves.

(USDC) Franck Raharinosy has got me to play a bunch with hardbat and with sandpaper; I used to suck at it. But as I got better at smooth, I got a little better at adjusting to the change. Still, hardbat is not what makes me happy when I play. I don't even care if I play matches. I personally like training where I get to spin the ball so heavy that I can make guys better than me have trouble controlling the topspin.

But, watching two guys who can really play hardbat go at it, it is a duel that, for me, is fun to watch. In many ways, more enjoyable than how short most rallies are in modern TT. But I still prefer to play modern TT. And most of the people on this forum are playing a modern looping game. So talking about hardbat may not even interest many of them.

But by all means, people should be able to choose whatever form or weapon they would like. Der_Echte's weapon of mass destruction seems to be quite similar to the one I have chosen. KJH with Karis. You don't get much out of it unless you put the effort into it. So, a wood blade with a control rubber that handles incoming spin fairly nicely.

(bjgm) Even though I think it would be beneficial for Western Hemisphere grassroots unplugged table tennis, spectator friendly table tennis, comprehensible table tennis. and playable table tennis, there isn't a whole hell of a lot I can do about the present situation. Nor can you or anyone save for those Kafkaesque suits of the ITTF who choose and will continue to choose until such time as professional and competitive players get fed up and decide to coalesce and get sound legal labor advice and form a union to look out for their own interests. And should their own unionized interests decide that all the 40+ balls will be strictly standardized and all the table tennis rackets and rubbers be limited to strict power, spin, and obstruction limits, well great. In the meantime, de gustibus non est disputandum. Play with whatever you want to, and I'll be content to play the part of the partly petrified old fossil on this table tennis forum whose forte is bitching, whinging, pissing and moaning about the ways things in general have become and how wonderful the ways (ha!) that things once were.

But, thanks to a busted up right arm and the joys of essential tremor, it's not my problem any more. And unless you unite for unity, it's gonna continue to be your problem.