Why would you use short pips?

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

IMO short pips can be very effective. but the technique and tactics are different than with normal rubbers. if you try to use it the same way it will not be effective.

short pips expresses its strength when you are able to take the ball early, before or at the top of the bounce near the table. one must have really quick footwork to do so all the time. if you need more time and play a little back from the table its not good

the other case are choppers. they cannot counter the incoming spin but they can create their own spin and create more subtle variations between spin and no-spin chops which can force errors.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

IMO short pips can be very effective. but the technique and tactics are different than with normal rubbers. if you try to use it the same way it will not be effective.

short pips expresses its strength when you are able to take the ball early, before or at the top of the bounce near the table. one must have really quick footwork to do so all the time. if you need more time and play a little back from the table its not good

the other case are choppers. they cannot counter the incoming spin but they can create their own spin and create more subtle variations between spin and no-spin chops which can force errors.

to answer the OP,

i would use SP on my BH because its my strong side and i know i can make flat counters which can "sink" low very quickly. with a normal rubber i cannot have this trajectory but i can do shots which are similarly annoying too, and have more options

on my FH, it means i would go back to a more flat-attacking style like i used to do younger. I sometimes use this style in matches when i want to be very agressive and take a lot of risk. maybe it would help further to use SP, but its playable without it, and normal rubbers give more options IMO.

all-in-all i don't think change would be benefiting to me given im getting slower every year. actually I guess maybe in a few years i may need to play with LP, to play a slower game.

 

[Stuart Marquis]

LOL
That is EXACTLY my point.
Short pips is suitable for a very small % of players even on the strong side (usually forehand).

That is 200% more relevant on the weakside
But most players who use SPs on weakside either don't understand the above fact or do understand it but are afraid to use long pips for fear of social rejection.

We can go in circles over & over now with you claiming that short pips is a valid weakside rubber just like on the strong side (which is pure crazy) or why one should use SP just because many players are doing so or why it is good for anyone etc just because Mima Ito & Hou Yingchao can use it etc..

You can object all you want & keep claiming that short pips will work exactly the same way on the weak side just as on the strong side, especially for an amateur. But players who approach this a little more objectively will learn the truth.

You seem very upset with this. Nothing personal. In fact I would love to be able to use short pips on my strong side myself but I am more realistic of my own limitations

Now you are just misrepresenting my position!

I am not claiming that:

1. SP's are a valid weakside rubber simply because they can be a valid strongside rubber
2. People should use SP's just because others use them, or indeed high-level pro's use them
3. SP's work on the weakside in exactly the same way as they do on the strong-side

What I'm claiming is this:

You cannot judge the usefulness of a rubber type without taking into consideration the type of game-style that it is designed to cater for and the game-style the player is employing. You do not take these things into consideration when you suggest that "There are so many reasons why SPs are TOTALLY worthless as a weaksidde rubber".

The simple reality is that no rubber type is totally worthless; they are all designed to fit a particular niche and so therefore are all effective when viewed in the context of that particular niche. An attack-minded player that wants to play attacking shots on both FH and BH is going to find that SP's are a better fit for their game than LP's, because SP's are designed more for an attacking style whereas LP's are designed more for a defensive strategy. That's not to say that all attackers should be using SP's instead of inverted, however, it's simply saying that on a spectrum where we have attack at one end and defence at the other, the SP's are closer to the attack end of the spectrum than the LP's are, and would therefore be a better "fit" for the attacker than the LP's would. So in this context, the SP's are not at all a "totally worthless" choice; they are in fact a more valuable choice than the LP's.

I'm not really "upset" by anything you've said, and as a double-inverted player I certainly don't take your dislike of SP's personally. My motivation is simply to challenge bad arguments and misinformation. OK, let me back-track on that a bit; I am slightly upset by the way you've misrepresented my position and accused me of making claims that I've not made...but that kind of misrepresentation is easily dealt with so it's not something that'll ruin my day.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

From a technical perspective I believe that a large number of amateurs would be more effective if they ued an sp like Moristo rather than Tenergy et alia.
The reason is that the modern iverted is harder to control than sp and unless you have correct loop drive technique you are not getting a reward that compensates for that lack of control.
Moristo and other modern tensor sps are fast, very spinny and provide easier control than most inverted.

However I dont think many will make the change because they are too wedded to the adrenalin rush of playing with “big spin” inverted in practice even though they havent managed to Harness the big spin towards winning.

Being able to execute max rotation shots in isolation is not the same as having mastery of topspin technique with inverted

 

[Stuart Marquis]

This is incorrect. Because I am indeed taking into consideration of the factors of why short pips rubbers exist. As I said I would love o use short pips on my forehand (strong side) myself). But as you agree, even on the forehand only a small % of players are capable of using short pips and I am not one of them.
So my point again & again for the fifth time, is that short pips is therefore the worst rubber for use on the weakside.
If an amateur play can attack on the weakside they are still better off using long pips & not short pips. This is because, as a weakside rubber short pips has lots of problems in usage compared to long pips from an overall picture standpoint.
You repeatedly keep going back again & again to the same incorrect & false premise that short pips can be used equally successfully on the weakside (by anamteur) just as on the strongside (as compared to using long pips on the weakside) while you yourself have admitted that only a small % players are capable of using short pips even on the forehand.

Short pips on the strong side can be the best if you have the skills to use it aggressively & consistently. (But some players with physical limitation due to many reasons such as aging. If an older player cannot loop at all or never looped , spinny inverted may be a huge liability on strong side & they may be better off with short pips or anti) .
I am not sure if you even understand why I even say most amateur player have a much weaker weakside compared to a pro (or high level amateur) whose weakside may not be that weak compared to their strong side. When I say a side is weak it is not just based on aggressive playing style only. It depended on many factors such as consistency with being able to execute different strokes.
When a person has a weakside it can be exploited severely at amateur level. Simply because you are aggressive on the weakside does not mean short pips is the most suitable rubber, because in the weakside mode, short pips is the weakest of all rubbers by its very nature. Most amateurs don’t understand this and think that they can also use it because Mima Ito or Hou Yingchao can use it.
I am not going to get into why short pips is the worst as a weakside rubber compared to long pips.
But of course you will keep going back again & again to claiming that short pips can be used on the weakside just as well as it can be on strong side. And we will keep going in circles.

You are putting words in my mouth.
I never said or meant to imply that short pips is TOTALLY WORTHLESS. In fact short is the best strong side rubber if you have the skills to use it.
But we are both in agreement that only s small % of the players are capable of this.
All I am saying is that that short pips is TOTALLY WORTHLESS as a weakside rubber.

What I have a huge problem is your incorrect claim that an amateur can use a rubber (short pips) only suitable for stong side use is equally useful on the weakside in the exact same manner, especially in the hands of an amteur..

Again you will come back & insist that it is possible & we can go in circles.
Please come again.

.

Again you are putting words in my mouth. I am not denying that short pips is best for attacking style on strong side. All I am saying is that from an overall perspective as a weakside rubber long pips is for superior to short pips whether close to the table blocking style or away from the table chopping style.

You are trying to confuse the issue by ONLY using long pips in teh chopping mode away from the table.

If an amateur has a weakside that is usually far less attacking than strong side why is it even a weakside?
True that a player may have a better close to the table block & smash backhand style and not a looping backhand but if it is equally strong compared to the strong side then this player is most likely a pro or a high level amateur. A low level amateur is still better off with a blocking style long pips than short pips but most low level amateurs either do not understand this or od understand this but use short pips (or anti) for fear of social rejection.

But you seem to confuse (or are confused about) (at the table) block & smash style long pips with away from the table chopping long pips..

On the weakside , for a low level amateur, the (close to the table) block & smash type long pips are the best & short pips are the absolute worst. But if an amateur has a Mima Ito syndrome they will NEVER accept this

On the weakside , for a low level amateur, the (far away from table) chopping type long pips are the best & short pips are the absolute worst But if an amateur has a Hou Yingchao (Ding Song) syndrome they will NEVER accept this.

On the weakside for an all around style play of at the table blocking & smashing and away from the table chopping and lobbing , medium pips may be the best and short pips are the absolute worst.

The dynamic operational range & versatility of long pips is only second to spinny inverted..Most amateurs mistakenly believe short pips is more diverse than long pips (Mima Ito / Hou Yingchao syndrome) . And from the overall functional effectiveness viewpoint long pips are almost just as good as spinny inverted rubbers.
Theoretically speaking a short pips / long pips combination racket (or a strongside short pips with a weakside spinny inverted) is the best & most lethal functional combination., though not as diverse as a spinny inverted / long pips combo racket
However from a practical perspective, for almost all (but not all) amateurs, a long pips / spinny inverted, combo is by far the best racket there is.
But when an amateur uses short pips or anti as a weakside rubber in a combo racket, that combination is the most worthless & dysfunctional or social racket there is.
The dynamic operational range of short pips compared to long pips as a weakside rubber is the biggest joke there is .And yet even many high level & pros think otherwise & manufacturers have successfully exploited this by promoting this confusion & misunderstanding
Keep in mind , I am only talking about lower level amateur
And of course long pips are the hardest to learn to use but short pips & anti are middle of the road can do a little bit of everything easy way out and or social solution
But again, ,for the fifth time, please come back again and claim that short pips can be used on the weakside just EXACTLY as it can used in the strong side mode

I’m not going to contribute further to this. You continue to misrepresent my position and claim that I am saying things that I simply am not saying. I have no time to waste on discussions that contain that sort of dishonest approach. Others have agreed with me in this discussion, and that’s good enough for me.

 

[Stuart Marquis]

There is nothing to misrepresent. The crux of the matter is simple
Your position is that short pips can be just useful as a weakside rubber just the same way as it is useful as a strong side rubber. (that too for a very small % players, by your own admission)
My position is clear > For most amateurs, as a weakside rubber, short pips is the most useless of all rubber types & short pips is just a social rubber when used as a weakside rubber

Feel free to correct me if misrepresented you or if I am being dishonest.

That is not my position on short pips. I made that clear in post #28 of this discussion where I listed three different things that I am NOT claiming…but you chose to ignore that part of the post when responding to it.

I’m going to end my contribution to this discussion on a kind note and assume that the misrepresentation is not deliberate but rather caused by communication problems…possibly a terminology misunderstanding- I’m conscious of the fact that my original position did not start out with any reference to “strong” or “weak-side” as it was (is) irrelevant to the point I’m making…this is terminology you insisted that be applied to my position, and I think that we might be working to different definitions/concepts of what is meant by those terms.

 

[Stuart Marquis]

My point is that the point you are trying to make is based on a false premise to start with. You reply to the OP's question based on the falae assumption, that, most amateur players are capable of using short pips on their weakside the same way they would use short pips on their strong side.because most pro can do so.
I do not deny the fact that you did not look at the whole picture from strong side / weak side viewpoint. However my point is that that is a huge top level mistake that most amateurs make, which is to assume that amateurs also can have equal (and same style) forehand and backhand just like most pros do, which in most cases of pros is spinny inverted both sides.
So, if the very foundation of your approach to this subject is seriously flawed, then your conclusions are seriously invalid.
You just disagree with me for whatever reason, which is perfectly fine with me, though you did agree with me that only a very small % players are capabale of using short pips successfully even on their strong side.

But I’m not making the false assumption that you claim I am. I have never claimed that “most amateur players are capable of using short pips on their weakside the same way they would use short pips on their strong side”. In fact, I have specifically stated that I am not making this claim (post #28)…but that is one of my comments you keep on choosing to ignore. My claim is simply that different rubber types are suitable for different play styles, and that therefore there is no scenario in which any rubber type could be described as “totally useless”, provided that it is being employed for the play-style that it was designed for…and that is true regardless of the level of the player and whether they are employing it on their strong or weak-side. A lower level player is still going to be better off with SP’s on their weak- side if the style of play they are employing on their weak-side is the style of play for which the SP’s are designed. That’s not to say they wouldn’t be more successful switching to a different style and using a complementary rubber type…but that’s an entirely different issue.

 

[Stuart Marquis]

Short pips are 99.9% useless as a weakside rubber.

So now you’re back-tracking on your original claim that SP’s are “totally useless” as a weak side rubber… which of course actually means you are now agreeing with my position that no rubber can be described as “totally useless” provided it is employed in the way that it was designed to be used.99.9% useless is still a ridiculous assertion, of course, but I’ll settle for this small victory…I just don’t have the energy to argue anymore.

 

[JHB]

There seems to be more than a smidgin of testiculating going on in this thread, so let me come in late with my answer to the original question. I switched to SP on backhand because I seem to do a lot of flat BH hitting these days and I found SP suited that better than inverted did. Oddly I seem to hit harder BH than FH now, although that definitely wasn't the case when I was younger - think that has to do with being left-handed and playing a lot of doubles, but not at all sure. .

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I am wondering how many different profiles you are writing under at the same time. But people don't seem to realize.

 

[tropical]

I am totally exhausted and confused with all the arguments here. Why don't you guys be quiet and let people with better knowledge contribute? Saying "SP is on weaker side" or "useless" shows how immature you are. Amen! Then arguing around OMG... which I am not sure the other side even read it? Ok whoever write the last sentence wins lol. Now beat me....

 

[Stuart Marquis]

There seems to be more than a smidgin of testiculating going on in this thread, so let me come in late with my answer to the original question. I switched to SP on backhand because I seem to do a lot of flat BH hitting these days and I found SP suited that better than inverted did. Oddly I seem to hit harder BH than FH now, although that definitely wasn't the case when I was younger - think that has to do with being left-handed and playing a lot of doubles, but not at all sure. .

Flat hitting is pretty much what SP’s are designed for. That’s their niche, and so it’s not surprising that they’re better at this than inverted rubbers which are primarily designed for spinning. Do you think you’d flat-hit better with long-pimples than you do short-pimples? Interested to hear your thoughts on that…I’m sure Kanyae West would be too 😉

 

[tropical]

My answer to "why use SP on backhand" from the OP. I am an amateur. I switch to SP as I get older and find I can't play fast as I used to. SP gives me opportunity to return heavy spin easier than inverted (normal rubber). I sometimes chop if forced far away from the table and as a left-handed I can chop with different spins. That is it! There is no magic to it and I do not care if it is on my weak side lol.

 

[Stuart Marquis]

My answer to his question is :-
That is very good question because except may be 4 or 5 humans on this planet, from an overall functionality perspective, short pips is the worst weak side rubber (uaually backhand)

Ok, so I think this really gets to the heart of why your thinking is wrong on this. You are assessing SP’s from an “overall functionality perspective”. Whilst that might be an interesting bit of academic “naval gazing”, that’s not how rubber selection works in the real world.

In the real world, players employ (or are attempting to employ) a specific playing style. Each style of play employs a relatively narrow range of tactics and shot selection etc as compared to the full repertoire employed across all styles of play.

You are basically saying that SP’s shouldn’t be used on the weak side because they are the worst rubber type at being a “jack of all trades”…but when you’re trying to emulate a specific playing style you don’t really want a “jack of all trades” rubber, you want to use the rubber type that is the best fit for the style of play you’re trying to employ, regardless of whether it’s your strong or weak-side…because that’s the rubber that’s going to give you the best chance of succeeding at the type of shots you’re attempting to play! Of course SP’s are’t great at everything (and they might in fact be the worst rubber type from a “jack of all trades” perspective)…but they are still the best at somethings; the things the rubber type is specifically designed for…and if those things align with the style of play being used then SP’s are going to be the best choice for that player, regardless of their level.

 

[daisy7]

I've owned a viscaria light for 5 years and dislike that blade a lot. hard to control, the touch felt off and a lot of unforced errors. Only thing I liked about it was the loop. That might just be me, but there's a saying for carbon blades, if you don't train at least 4 times a weak you cannot possibly be good with it.

There too hard to control! That's due to the carbon effect to have the ball not to have an increased dwell time on the blade and come off earlier. Its the opposite to wood blades. Most big companies try different methods to erase this problem but you can still feel it.

Problem with Carbon blades is that ball arc trajectory become too similar, for the average player. Unless you are top division player for your state or regional equivalent. Another issue with Viscaria is Tenergy is the only thing good with it, excluding speed glue. Like all carbon Butterfly blades Tenergy is the only viable choice you have. So get ready to spend BIG. A lot of top players have sweared by bty carbon blades and tenergy. I have tried on my vslight Bryce, Acuda, Rasant, hexer power sponge and tenergy.

Tenergy In my opinion works better with a carbon blade over a wood blade, I think when they were designing tenergy they had that philosophy.

 

[Brs]

I am wondering how many different profiles you are writing under at the same time. But people don't seem to realize.

Yes, I was wondering if the OP is another alias for this alfort, or kanyaewest or whatever. Seems like a fake post to allow the trolling to start, since the OP never came back into their own thread.

If there is a real OP I would write a longer reply since I switched to SP after six years using inverted. But not if it's only to feed a troll.

 

[tropical]

The OP is "Why would someone use short pips on their backhand?". It seems people got carried away. Can you guys go straight to the point?

 

[Stuart Marquis]

Don't feel bad . I have also wasted lot more years than you using inverted on my backhand, brainwashed by people like you, with only difference being that they made me waste my prime years with inverted on my backhand but you obviously are advising players to waste their time with short pips on weakside (because you do)

Seems to me that you’re just bitter about the fact that you were too weak-minded to do your own thing. And now that you feel you’ve wasted your time you want to lash out at others for not making the same choice that you wish you’d made. But clearly there are loads of players that do not feel they are wasting their time using SP’s. They enjoy using them and clearly they feel their game benefits from using them. Who are you to tell other people that their choices are a waste of time just because they’re not the choices you wish you’d made for yourself?!?! Just try and enjoy the game and let others do the same…none of us here are going to win Olympic medals so just relax a little and accept the fact that there’s more than one way to play table tennis and we don’t all have to play it the way you want us to.

 

[Stuart Marquis]

The OP is "Why would someone use short pips on their backhand?". It seems people got carried away. Can you guys go straight to the point?

Many players find SP’s easier to control (and for a lot of players the BH is more of a controlling shot)

Potentially a faster/more direct shot (if the pimples are used properly)

To add variety of spin (as compared to using the same rubber on both sides). Maybe they even twiddle their bat during the rally or during serves to try and mess up the opponent.

Maybe they’ve just always played that way (not everyone starts out with double inverted)

Perhaps they naturally have more of a flat hit. This is the reason why Matthias Falck uses SP’s on his FH, but no reason why the same logic couldn’t apply to thd BH.

Maybe they also play hard-bat and don’t want to diverge too greatly from that.

and probably loads of other reasons other players can come up with too!

 

[Brs]

So if I may ask, how many years have YOU been wasting your time now with a social rubber on your backhand ?

Pure trolling, go **** yourself.